The God Delusion and its Repercussions

[Dondi]

You know, I don't often refer to another's post, and I hope he don't mind, but I thought this might be pertinent to the conversation:

Santa vs God - Post #27

[wil]

Originally Posted by Dondi

You know, I don't often refer to another's post, and I hope he don't mind, but I thought this might be pertinent to the conversation:

Santa vs God - Post #27

Namaste Dondi,

too funny whilst you were referring to that thread, I was referring to this thread... As they were started in near time proximity I think they are sisters but I don't know which one gave rise to which...

[Tao_Equus]

Wil,

Let me first stress that not for one moment do I question that you provide this tuition to these children for anything other than what you perceive to be the best intentions. But you are still peddling myths not truths.

-God is absolute good, everywhere present. A point of view not a fact.

-Human beings have a spark of divinity within them, the Christ Spirit within. Their very essence is of God, and therefore they are inherently good also. A point of view not a fact. The fact shows that our notions of good are misunderstood and are an evolutionary adaptation common in many social mammals. Not God given. Good is taught, we are not born with it.
-Human beings create their experiences by the activity of their liking. Everything in the manifest realm has its beginning in thought. So why should thought be forced to have the scaffold of faith?
-Prayer is creative thinking that heightens the connection with God-Mind and therefore brings forth wisdom, healing , prosperity, and everything good. Atheists too can meditate and there is not one bit of evidence to support the contention that prayer effects anything.
-Knowing and understanding the laws of life, also called Truth, are not enough. A person must also live the Truth that he or she knows. Faith in a deity not necessary to live a moral life and as demonstrated this is not aided by having religious beliefs.
Everything you teach is subjective not objective. You teach from the start point of your manifesto not from the blank page. By the time you get the kids they have already been subjected to a decade of indoctrination. Their probity is an expression of that hard to suppress need in many, but not all, people to have the real truth. But in such a setting, and after a decade of schooling, only the smartest and most independent have any questions that will really test you. The rest will remain in the one mindset and pass it on to the next generation unquestioningly.

Our genes are a fact. The colour of our skin also, and our race, our country of birth and all the things you mention. All fact. Religious belief is not a fact in the same way. It is a schooled behaviour. It is not inherent in man.

As a child I was in both the boyscouts and the boys brigade. Both of them held their meetings in the church hall and we were obliged to attend church on occasion for ceremonial purposes. The motto's we had to learn were riddled with religious sayings. In school every morning the first thing we did was to recite the Lords Prayer and the weekly assembly included hymns and prayers. This is still the system to this day and my oldest son still has to do what I did. So despite growing up in a household where religion was never mentioned I was certainly taught what standard worship is. In addition to that we had 3 hours a week of religious education, heavily biased to the protestant, (which is what non-denominational means in Scotland), faith but still inclusive of all major world religions. So to sum up, I did not grow up untouched by religion. I was not completely ignorant of the message they were selling. But always to me it seemed insincere or beyond credible. I think the reason for that was because I was not 'infected' in my pre-school years. The essence of what a person is to become is moulded in the first few years of life. I do not object to religious education across the board but I feel strongly it should not happen till the intellect is sufficiently developed to handle it. Personally I would say this does not happen till around age 14.

I think most of us want to belong. To feel like we are a part of a community. This is what makes religion so powerful a force, religion fills that need by providing the resources to maintain a place of gathering and a function of shared purpose. If we were to ditch the superstitious mumbo jumbo and concentrate less on often meaningless hymns, sermons and prayers and instead focus on creative secular improvement and education then I think we would see a net gain in morality. But religions divide far more than thy unify and they all sell conjecture as truth. Which is the most important part of all. How can society as a whole be expected to strive for truth when the truth they accept is no truth at all and subconsciously they all know they have all bought into the big lie.

Tao

[wil]

You call them point of views, I call them beliefs.

You say

-Human beings create their experiences by the activity of their liking. Everything in the manifest realm has its beginning in thought. So why should thought be forced to have the scaffold of faith?
-Prayer is creative thinking that heightens the connection with God-Mind and therefore brings forth wisdom, healing , prosperity, and everything good. Atheists too can meditate and there is not one bit of evidence to support the contention that prayer effects anything.

Maybe because that is where they are and that is where I am? You have a reason it shouldn't be taught there? And if it is being taught elsewhere, I get to reinforce.

Not one bit of evidence, that doesn't hold water, it changes millions daily.

"Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

Prayer doesn't change G!d or the situation but my perception of it...every time.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by wil

You say Maybe because that is where they are and that is where I am? You have a reason it shouldn't be taught there? And if it is being taught elsewhere, I get to reinforce.

Not sure I understand that

Not one bit of evidence, that doesn't hold water, it changes millions daily. Prayer doesn't change G!d or the situation but my perception of it...every time.

You state here God is not required. Equally take god out of it and you can have:

"May I find in myself the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,

the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

Any less inspirational or sage?

Tao

[wil]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Not sure I understand that

You state here God is not required. Equally take god out of it and you can have:

"May I find in myself the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,

the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference."

Any less inspirational or sage?

Tao

You asked why I teach a portion of what I teach in a religious context. I said that is where I am and that is where they are. ie I am teaching youth education in a Sunday school program, they are brought there by their parents for a religious education, the concept of the power of our thoughts and words affecting our reality is part of our church's beliefs, hence we teach it there.

I said prayer does not affect G!d, not that I can take G!d out of it. Although one could, but many prefer to leave him in. This isn't a quote of an atheist, it is a prayer of St. Francis, if atheists prefer to utilize his quote without G!d, that would be their choice. If atheists prefer to take every story or quote they like in religious settings/texts and co-opt them by removing the references to G!d so be it. Doesn't mean we have to though...

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by wil

You asked why I teach a portion of what I teach in a religious context. I said that is where I am and that is where they are. ie I am teaching youth education in a Sunday school program, they are brought there by their parents for a religious education, the concept of the power of our thoughts and words affecting our reality is part of our church's beliefs, hence we teach it there.

I said prayer does not affect G!d, not that I can take G!d out of it. Although one could, but many prefer to leave him in. This isn't a quote of an atheist, it is a prayer of St. Francis, if atheists prefer to utilize his quote without G!d, that would be their choice. If atheists prefer to take every story or quote they like in religious settings/texts and co-opt them by removing the references to G!d so be it. Doesn't mean we have to though...

Ummm did you mean Rheinhold Niebuhr?

The Serenity Prayer

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.
Amen.

--Reinhold Niebuhr

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by wil

If atheists prefer to take every story or quote they like in religious settings/texts and co-opt them by removing the references to G!d so be it. Doesn't mean we have to though...

No we dont have to, and most likely most will not. But it is interesting to note that you can deduct the religion or the belief in a higher power and still lose nothing.

Tao

[wil]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Ummm did you mean Rheinhold Niebuhr?

I see the quote all over attributed to Saint Francis, I don't know. As Neibuhr was a preacher one of the references I saw to him in regards to this was 'from a sermon' odds are he borrowed it in his talk as it is attributed to him in any number of ways. I don't know.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

No we dont have to, and most likely most will not. But it is interesting to note that you can deduct the religion or the belief in a higher power and still lose nothing.

Tao

Ah, that is because the higher power is at work anyway! But isn't that the key? The information comes from religious sources. You secularize it, sanitize it, but the essence is still there. I work in school settings or non religioius settings all the time and espouse the same stuff I teach in Sunday School, but without the G!d reference, as that is what is required, but I still get to teach the essence. And the presence is there anyway!

No nobody holds the patent on virtue. As far as I can see most who claim virtue are often knocked off that pedestal.

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

No we dont have to, and most likely most will not. But it is interesting to note that you can deduct the religion or the belief in a higher power and still lose nothing.

Tao

Incredibly profound statement and cuts across both sides of the argument, but I wonder will it be summarily dismissed?
The significance of this idea tells me that there is a reality, the depths of which have not been explored by religion or reason alone. But my experience tells me that once again in the rush to prove a personal point it will go by unnoticed.
The Religious see the Atheist as disconnected and apart from the divine source, the Atheist sees the Religious as deluded, living within a fiercely defended illusion.
But why look for a third possibility when there is a trench warfare going on?

[wil]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Incredibly profound statement and cuts across both sides of the argument, but I wonder will it be summarily dismissed?

But why look for a third possibility when there is a trench warfare going on?

Oops, did I summarily dismiss?? Yes I reverted completely to my understanding. And my understanding was In the beginning there was the word and the word was G!d.

The power of the word is incredible, call it prayer or whatever, but I obviously come from a Christian perspective, and without mentioning Christ or G!d teach the power of the word.

Do we need another thread to explore on the third possibility?

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Incredibly profound statement and cuts across both sides of the argument, but I wonder will it be summarily dismissed?
The significance of this idea tells me that there is a reality, the depths of which have not been explored by religion or reason alone. But my experience tells me that once again in the rush to prove a personal point it will go by unnoticed.
The Religious see the Atheist as disconnected and apart from the divine source, the Atheist sees the Religious as deluded, living within a fiercely defended illusion.
But why look for a third possibility when there is a trench warfare going on?

Shut up and pass me the shovel

[wil]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Shut up and pass me the shovel

That makes both sister threads with great chuckles (rotflmao for the rest of ya)moments apart. thanx Tao, Palladin and China!

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by wil

That makes both sister threads with great chuckles (rotflmao for the rest of ya)moments apart. thanx Tao, Palladin and China!

You may well laugh at one man with one shovel. You have the Jesus Christ Brigade (JCB)

Tao