The God Delusion and its Repercussions

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

If you take another closer look at the study you linked to you will find that 93% of abusers were religious. In fact religion is the most striking statistical link between all paedophiles.

You appear to be outright lying. Show me where.

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

There is only one rational answer. God does not exist. But I have no doubt you will now tell me why it is good that God brings innocents into the world so they can be maimed, tortured and made fearful and miserable for all of their childhood. And then spend the rest of their lives trying to blot out the pain or go on to become abusers themselves. Go on...tell me....tell me why it is that your omnipresent deity is so cruel?

Most everyone I know has asked the same question. I'd say it depends on your material priorities... I don't see a loss. There are other rational answers. I recommend seeking and asking God for yourself.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

You appear to be outright lying. Show me where.

Page 6 http://childmolestationprevention.org/pdfs/study.pdf

Most everyone I know has asked the same question. I'd say it depends on your material priorities... I don't see a loss. There are other rational answers. I recommend seeking and asking God for yourself.

What do you mean you dont see a loss? The child loses nothing? And there are other rational answers? What the hell are they then? Hardly fair of you to try and derogatively call me an Assertionist and liar when you yourself do nothing but duck and dive.

Tao

[Tao_Equus]

Hi Francis,

In my OP I specifically target monotheistic, and even more specifically, Abrahamic religion. The reason for this is I believe it symbolises the patriarchal power structures that are the hallmark of the wrongs in the questions I pose. Later I go on to stress that I am aware that the spiritual experience is not invariably bad or detrimental to either individual nor society, but I did not set out to discuss these truths. But that said compassion, humility, warmth, understanding and love are not solely the preserve of the religiously minded. In truth the reasonably educated atheist, one that has thought long enough to choose it, usually has these qualities in abundance. So we can deduct these qualities from the equation. When we do what are we left with?

Tao

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Page 6 http://childmolestationprevention.org/pdfs/study.pdf

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

If you take another closer look at the study you linked to you will find that 93% of abusers were religious. In fact religion is the most striking statistical link between all paedophiles.

Thank you. I have a different read of that: The person is asked if they are religious and the results perfectly match the US census demographics. So if I take any study of anything in the USA that is NOT correlated with religion and I ask a person if they are religious, then I would expect 93% will say yes. Where you claim a statistical link, I claim there is evidence that there is NO statistical link.

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

What do you mean you dont see a loss? The child loses nothing? And there are other rational answers? What the hell are they then? Hardly fair of you to try and derogatively call me an Assertionist and liar when you yourself do nothing but duck and dive.

Hardly fair of you to try and derogatively call me more likely to physically and sexually abuse my children and partner, and to have chosen an ostrich like denial about it. I am not ducking and diving anything. I am taking the time to contend with your words and beliefs.

Conversely, what do you think of the statistics from the same report:

9. Sexually abused boys who become molesters: Being abused as a boy appears to increase the risk that the abused child will himself eventually molest a child. More than 47 percent of the admitted child molesters had been sexually abused as children.

10. Severely sexually abused boys: Adult molesters who, as children, were sexually abused more than 50 times have triple the number of child victims compared to child molesters who were never sexually molested. Of those sexually abused more than 50 times, 82 percent can be categorized as pedophiles.

With those statistics in mind would you say that a person who has been abused is more likely doomed to be an abuser themselves, or is it possible for them to seek a higher power, to look inside and find a way to change and prevent doing the same? Are the statistics a dictation of what will occur... or merely a measure of history with the realization that the future can still be made different? What power, if any, exists in this world... within the mind... to make things different?

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Thank you. I have a different read of that: The person is asked if they are religious and the results perfectly match the US census demographics. So if I take any study of anything in the USA that is NOT correlated with religion and I ask a person if they are religious, then I would expect 93% will say yes. Where you claim a statistical link, I claim there is evidence that there is NO statistical link.

lol, you call that logic? 93% of child abusers consider themselves religious and 93% of Americans consider themselves religious = the vast majority of child abuse is carried out by religious people. There is no way to slide out of it it is FACT. So religion gives society no net morality gain. That 10% of catholic priests have been investigated for Child Abuse is not a statement of general demographics but a snapshot into confirming my original assertion, that those peddling moral authority have a far higher incidence of being abusers than the general population. No you can wriggle and twist however which way you please but my assertion stands.

Hardly fair of you to try and derogatively call me more likely to physically and sexually abuse my children and partner,

Would you please quote me on where I ever did such a thing? After you have failed to do so because such a thing has never and will never happen we can tackle this:

Conversely, what do you think of the statistics from the same report:
With those statistics in mind would you say that a person who has been abused is more likely doomed to be an abuser themselves, or is it possible for them to seek a higher power, to look inside and find a way to change and prevent doing the same? Are the statistics a dictation of what will occur... or merely a measure of history with the realization that the future can still be made different? What power, if any, exists in this world... within the mind... to make things different?

From the same report the best estimate is that almost 40 million children have suffered sexual abuse which goes to show that quite contrary to the image you try to push here, ( and no I have not forgotten I have told of my own ordeal as a young boy here where you can read it), victims of abuse are no more likely than the general population to become abusers.

I said to you that it is up to you if you wish to bury your head in the sand over issues that I have raised in good faith. I raised them because I feel they have not been discussed here on CR from the perspective I come from. I have never accused nor hinted you are guilty of any crime. I have not called you a liar and I have not attempted to weave any past admission of yours into a veiled insinuation. I have had enough. I have stated in my OP an assertion that you forced me to statistically validate as fact, I have done so. Given the nature of your personal assault on my own integrity I dont see that you have anything of value to add here. You are not engaging me in good faith but only setting out to undermine what I say with foundless slurs. Which is a form of abuse. QED.

Tao

[Dream]

Well I can see what Tao's talking about. Growing up religious can get complicated, and I've met lots of screwed up religious people. Growing up in a small Christian school threw me a few curves. It certainly is reasonable to wonder why or at least how.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

lol, you call that logic? 93% of child abusers consider themselves religious and 93% of Americans consider themselves religious = the vast majority of child abuse is carried out by religious people. There is no way to slide out of it it is FACT.

According to the US census the vast majority of everything done in the USA is carried out by religious people... 93%. I'm sure building churches, mosques, or synagogues is maybe more like 100%.

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

So religion gives society no net morality gain.

Does law or morality give society non-sinners?

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Would you please quote me on where I ever did such a thing?

From the OP:

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Statistics show that the more religious and fundamental the 'head' of a household to be the more likely they are to physically and sexually abuse their children and partner.

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

From the same report the best estimate is that almost 40 million children have suffered sexual abuse which goes to show that quite contrary to the image you try to push here, ( and no I have not forgotten I have told of my own ordeal as a young boy here where you can read it), victims of abuse are no more likely than the general population to become abusers.

Tao I'm unaware of your personal ordeals but I submit it is a healthy sign if you are able to disclose them. 40 million children is 13% of the US population whereas that report indicates 47% and a progression of proportionate severity. The statistical link there looks pretty strong to me.

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

You are not engaging me in good faith but only setting out to undermine what I say with foundless slurs. Which is a form of abuse.

False.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

According to the US census the vast majority of everything done in the USA is carried out by religious people... 93%. I'm sure building churches, mosques, or synagogues is maybe more like 100%.

Do you not get it...really not get it? Religion and religious moral high ground is a myth. It does not exist. It protects nobody. Least of all the 40 million abused children.

Does law or morality give society non-sinners?

No but the law does determine what is or is not a criminal act. Religions have been time and again found guilty not only of having abuse endemic within their institutions but of trying to cover up the truth. This is immorality built upon immorality. Criminal act built upon criminal act. To try and turn it round and say the religious are no more predisposed to morality than the atheist begs the question what the hell use is religion anyway? It has no authority as a way of life.

From the OP:

Where exactly in my OP do I accuse you or any individual of sex crimes?

40 million children is 13% of the US population whereas that report indicates 47% and a progression of proportionate severity. The statistical link there looks pretty strong to me.

.

Nonsense. 0.2 % of the population is on the sex offenders register. I doubt that 1/2 of them are convicted paedophiles but for example lets say they are. That is 0.1% of which half of them were themselves abused so thats 0.05%...and that is generous. So 1 in 26, under 4%, of abused children will go on to be an abuser. There is no link. Quite to the contrary in fact. From personal experience in survivor groups you will find that victims are acutely aware and sensitive to this issue and the majority are those least likely to abuse a child and the most likely to spot the tell tale signs. This notion that the abused become abusers is an urban myth when it comes to sex crimes at least.

False

You call me a liar and accuse me of calling you a child abuser.... how else am I meant to interpret you?

I have substantiated my original assertion. I have no more to say to you on that subject.


Tao

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Do you not get it...really not get it? Religion and religious moral high ground is a myth. It does not exist. It protects nobody. Least of all the 40 million abused children.

I suppose you could say that Jesus Christ was not protected either... but that really depends on your viewpoint and what it is you think a person is protected from.

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

No but the law does determine what is or is not a criminal act.

It does? How criminal.

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

To try and turn it round and say the religious are no more predisposed to morality than the atheist begs the question what the hell use is religion anyway? It has no authority as a way of life.

What has authority with you... nature? Evolution? Governments?

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Where exactly in my OP do I accuse you or any individual of sex crimes?

Where exactly in my post do I accuse you of accusing an individual of sex crimes?

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

That is 0.1% of which half of them were themselves abused so thats 0.05%...and that is generous. So 1 in 26, under 4%, of abused children will go on to be an abuser. There is no link. Quite to the contrary in fact.

I'll improve on your math and call it: (.047%*300M/40M) = 1 in 283, or .35%. Whereas for the non-sexually abused (.053%*300M/(300M - 40M)) = 1 in 1635, or .06%. Using the statistics of the registered offenders may be misleading but regardless of the number of offenders there is a significant increase in the risk factor there: (x 5.8). The 47% in that study is unavoidable as a significant statistical link unless of course 141M of the 300M population had been sexually assaulted as a child... or 47%. If it is 40M in 300M (1 in 7.5 people sexually assaulted as a minor), which I think is an overtly high estimate, then the equation for the probability increase is = .47/.53*(300 - 40)/40. Cold hard science.

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

This notion that the abused become abusers is an urban myth when it comes to sex crimes at least.

Not according to the scientific research and literature that I've been reading thanks to your pressing upon me to dig up the statistics.

[wil]

Namaste Tao,

I know well the prose of Gibran on children, it was read by my preacher when they were baptized I also allow my children to explore all religions and none as is there choice. Currently my son questions just about everything and claims atheism It doesn't preclude, excuse or stop him from exploring, reading and questioning, I still require he does all these.

The fact that there is evil in the world does not prove G!d does not exist, nor that G!d is evil. Your very reference to Gibran's essay should be examined in this regard. Our creations are their own entity. Somehow you now wish to blame the progenitor?

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Where exactly in my post do I accuse you of accusing an individual of sex crimes?

Post 19

Hardly fair of you to try and derogatively call me more likely to physically and sexually abuse my children and partner

Well Cyberpi I have for a long time now tried to be patient with you, to keep things light hearted and I had managed to maintain some respect for your opinions. But you clearly have no desire to discuss what I set out to discuss. You have for reasons known best to you tried to re-interpret and give a false impression of what I said in my OP. We have established that religion does nothing to aid net morality within society though, so not all was lost. Never the less you have made a return to your single line rhetoricals, and I am not going to play your game.

Tao

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste Tao,

I know well the prose of Gibran on children, it was read by my preacher when they were baptized I also allow my children to explore all religions and none as is there choice. Currently my son questions just about everything and claims atheism It doesn't preclude, excuse or stop him from exploring, reading and questioning, I still require he does all these.

The fact that there is evil in the world does not prove G!d does not exist, nor that G!d is evil. Your very reference to Gibran's essay should be examined in this regard. Our creations are their own entity. Somehow you now wish to blame the progenitor?

No Wil, I do not wish to blame at all. I wish to examine. Not a cursory skirt across the issues but a true weighing of the pro's and cons of what religion gives to mankind, and what it denies us. There are several parts to examine because of course religion pervades every aspect of living in almost every society.
The vast majority of atheists I have known are good people with a strong moral identity, they are intelligent and well balanced and have a dynamic and questioning approach to life. They like truth for truths sake.
Religion as a whole is very unlike that. Most people have religious belief ingrained in them when very young, by family, education and the society they live in. Such pervasive indoctrination is the policy of the religious establishments. It is for them, not us, that this system is rigorously upheld.

For most people religion is something they have never not had and for many its as permanent as what gave the castrato his piercing voice. They in effect surrender to the top down institutionalised way of thinking that historically and to this day has given power to the global warlords, started the wars, maintained them and justified then in the face of all reason. I think in society we have gone a good way down the path of no longer fearing someone because of the colour of his skin, but the peddling of hate based on his religion is as strong as ever. And the institutions nurture this. Religions are often the biggest pedlars of unhealthy nationalism. God and country is a ubiquitous phrase amongst the warring factions.

My OP only uses the word "religion", not spirituality, and this is quite deliberate. I think a long long way from all people who claim religious affiliation have ever had the independence of mind to discover what spirituality really is. It is something they are given, not something they discover. So in the context of the totality of my OP I ask is "religion" a disease. Not belief itself, not personal spirituality, but the religions that march into our schools, pervade our societies, are a tool of our governments and march so many off to an early grave.

Tao

[wil]

I think the indication that religion is the cause of wars and death is an oversimplification. Religion is a convenient tool of the power elite. It is no different than catapults, tanks, bombers, or patriotism or race or whatever else someone can get a wedge in to create differences.

Many wars have been fought with Christians on both sides, not Christian factions fighting over their denomination, in these cases other differences created the wedge. Same as Muslims, Hindus, whoever fighting each other. But when we can find a religious difference, it is highlighted, both by those instigating and by those reviewing.

I don't believe the current conflicts are related to Christian v. Muslim, do you? I think many of those instigating these conflicts use the predjudice of the people in this regard to fan the fire.

I was raised Christian. I've explored other thoughts, I've been agnostic and atheist, cursed G!d and questioned. I'm absolutely comfortable in my thought now. I don't feel the need to foist my beliefs on others, and don't wish others to foist theirs on me.

If you think I'm diseased, so be it, it is ok for you to think that way. But if you try to pass laws saying I am required to drink your koolaid or antibiotic, I'll not take it quietly.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by wil

I think the indication that religion is the cause of wars and death is an oversimplification. Religion is a convenient tool of the power elite. It is no different than catapults, tanks, bombers, or patriotism or race or whatever else someone can get a wedge in to create differences.

I do not say it is the cause. A biological weapon is a tool of war. The disease is a tool not a cause.

Many wars have been fought with Christians on both sides, not Christian factions fighting over their denomination, in these cases other differences created the wedge. Same as Muslims, Hindus, whoever fighting each other. But when we can find a religious difference, it is highlighted, both by those instigating and by those reviewing.

Exactly. And I think you will find even when there has been an inter-denominational war then the level of piety becomes the question. But I maintain that almost without exception religion is a primary tool and its removal from the equation would make it more difficult to gain support for war.

I don't believe the current conflicts are related to Christian v. Muslim, do you? I think many of those instigating these conflicts use the predjudice of the people in this regard to fan the fire.

Without a doubt this is a holy war. Our TV screens, (remember who owns the media) have been full of historical programs going over the minutia of the crusades. Nobody trusts what a politician says and so when he says it is not a "Holy War" we can be damned sure that it is. Just take a look at Bush's references to the Christian God in the run up to his invasion. Of course its pumped as a holy war.

I was raised Christian. I've explored other thoughts, I've been agnostic and atheist, cursed G!d and questioned. I'm absolutely comfortable in my thought now. I don't feel the need to foist my beliefs on others, and don't wish others to foist theres on me.

The first 4 words there show that desoite your adult wish to be free to decide you had no choice as a child. This is true of most religious people. Which is a key question in my OP, should religious education be forced on children. We dont force on them Adam Smiths economic theory which is far less complex than religion.

If you think I'm diseased, so be it, it is ok for you to think that way. But if you try to pass laws saying I am required to drink your koolaid or antibiotic, I'll not take it quietly.

You mean like this from the party thats trying to "Christianise" British politics :
BBC NEWS | Health | No jabs, no school says Labour MP

Tao

[wil]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

IThe first 4 words there show that desoite your adult wish to be free to decide you had no choice as a child. This is true of most religious people. Which is a key question in my OP, should religious education be forced on children. We dont force on them Adam Smiths economic theory which is far less complex than religion.

Sure we do, we start out by foisting our genes on them, be they white, black, whatever, and then we foist our economic class on them, and then our predjudices and beliefs, whatever they may be. And now you wish that we deny them our spiritual beliefs. So you are taking your kids to Sunday school? The mosque? The synagogue? The ashram?? or are you foisting your godless atheistic beliefs on them?? You should be jailed, drawn and quartered!!

I don't believe that in any stretch of your imagination, but am making a point. Your children will be absorbing your beliefs and understanding just as mine get mine, no choice, unless of course you are sending them off to military school or putting them up for adoption.

Sorry over here in the US you atheists have to take the vaccines to get into school, only those with religious objections get the reprieve...hello pandora!

Oh and as for me...the rest of the story...christian yes, non denominational. My mom drug us off to Sunday school, as we moved alot she picked churches based on neighbors and coworkers recommendations, so we were Lutheran, Presbytarian, Baptist and Methodist at various times in various cities and states. My dad never went to church, he refused to go to listen to a sermon and not be able to stand up and question the preacher after the talk. So he stayed home doing projects in the garage/house in the winter and in the yard/garden in the summer. By second grade I was home with dad instead of going to church with mom and my sisters... I'm appreciative of the religious education and impetus to question that my parents allowed me in my youth, I hope my kids are and yours are too. I feel if they hadn't introduced me to the variety the world provides, they would not have done their job. I'll agree with you it is a shame when a child is raised with only one viewpoint, be it any religion or no religion.

So Unitarian Universalists, that is an interesting group. I spoke at a couple different centers, and you talk for 20 minutes and then get Q&A for 20 minutes...my dad would have liked that. They've got all beliefs there, including Atheists, and agnostics, pretty open bunch, I like them, but I don't attend there, it doesn't feed me as much as where I do attend.

And I don't attend a place where we get to stand up and question, we get a sermon. Actually I don't, I get the tapes, I'm busy indocrinating kids with these horrendous mythological beliefs of which you speak.
I've taught little guys and gals but now work mostly with preteens and teenagers...and boy do they question and have their opinions, as I have mine, it is great exploration for all of us. And you atheists are not the only ones that have a problem with our teachings, you are on the side of the orthodox and dogmatic screaming heresy...as I teach...

-God is absolute good, everywhere present.

-Human beings have a spark of divinity within them, the Christ Spirit within. Their very essence is of God, and therefore they are inherently good also.
-Human beings create their experiences by the activity of their liking. Everything in the manifest realm has its beginning in thought.
-Prayer is creative thinking that heightens the connection with God-Mind and therefore brings forth wisdom, healing , prosperity, and everything good.
-Knowing and understanding the laws of life, also called Truth, are not enough. A person must also live the Truth that he or she knows.

Now our understanding of G!d in no way looks like Santa, nor do we believe there is some critter named the devil...but we teach personal responsibility in our lives, and attempt to nurture thinkers.