The Function Of Belief

[Tao_Equus]

Hi Juan Happy New Year to you!!

Originally Posted by juantoo3

We need to make sense of our surroundings so that we are not overcome with fear of the unknown. When we believe (what we often call "know"), we no longer fear, we are no longer irrational, we are sane. It can be a frightening experience to have one's knowledge and underlying beliefs usurped.

Frightened children. How the churches love them! How they like to sustain that fear in the books they use. Truth is liberating. The absence of propagated fears and embrace of rationality can and does bring personal peace. Not being at the centre of things, not being under Gods critical eye, allows one to sit back and enjoy the natural universe without preconceptions. It allows genuine truth to build upon genuine truth. No matter if these truths are only our best guesses. And most importantly it allows one to know ones place is no more or less equal than any other agglomeration of atoms in this wondrous universe. Being equal is far more desirable than being the product of a deity that appears to allow such great suffering in his name dont you think?

I do not think people are in fear without god, I think they are in fear because of god. A benign and ambivalent universe has not got it in for you because you fail to attend church of a Sunday, because you actually enjoy sex and use contraception because you dont want a baby every time, because you like to wear a bikini on the beach, because you like to read Salman Rushdie or partake of a wee dram. And do not forget the peer pressure, which is concentrated fearmongering, to conform. I wonder how many people would actually care about religion if somehow we managed to liberate them from peer pressure. Not that many I think. Religion is a mass hysteria without factual evidence to support its claims. Wherever there is hysteria there is fear, they walk hand in hand.

Embellishment is the first tool of every storyteller. Things were no different back at the dawn of language. Smart people began to realise, for good or ill, that particular embellishments would have particular effects. Over the millennia this has been refined to a fine art. And so we have the devices of mass control we call our holy books. As I have stated many times this was not strictly a bad thing, societies need laws of governance. But the greedy and powerful have so corrupted them that they are no longer useful. Well not if we do not wish to walk headlong into some mutually assured destruction. I think mankind has reached the point we need to cast away our fairytale books and go in for some factual education. Just as we get over the realisation that Dad is Santa Claus, so we will get over the fact God is no more than an instrument of fear propagated by the churches.

Tao

[Paladin]

You know Tao, now that I think about it, the ability to construct a story and then live out from and within it is really a marvelous ability. True, it does have its downside, but look here for a moment. The addict, the alchoholic gives up their failing perceptions of a world where getting high is the only survival mechanism they know for one in which a higher power controls their destiny and day to day life. Now, say what you will but it does have the effect of getting their lives back on track and makes them a more useful member of the tribe.

Further, we have picked on religion to the exlcusion of other belief systems that can cause damage as well. You mention control of the masses and I agree as far as that goes but what about the other two methods? Politics and marketing? Just look how far we have come when giant corporations have millions of people in the palm of their hands. If consumers ever started waking up to the fact that they don't need half of what wal-mart is selling where would they be? Our whole economy rests on everyone just having to have the latest model, the best thingamabob.
Political propaganda though tied into the religious here in the States is just as bad. It pretends virtue because of association with religion but the world should have seen through that old schtick after Crystal Nacht , nicht wahr?

[dauer]

Juantoo,

That is why I have issues with Dawkins "memes." Meme is another way of saying belief system, and all peoples have a belief system, including Dawkins. I find it disingenuous to fault some people for a trait all people share, in principle if not in particulars.

I haven't read Dawkins but I agree. I personally don't have an issue with people forming beliefs so much as I have a problem with fundamentalism, including that on the far left. At that point I think there's a real risk of it becoming a cancer on other parts of society. If someone's saying, "I know I'm right because I've got this source of absolute truth here and you're completely wrong for questioning it, should believe as I do" then I get concerned. If someone's only going so far as saying, "I disagree with you because I believe I'm right but you're welcome to live your life according to your own beliefs" then I'm not so worried.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by dauer

Juantoo,



I haven't read Dawkins but I agree. I personally don't have an issue with people forming beliefs so much as I have a problem with fundamentalism, including that on the far left. At that point I think there's a real risk of it becoming a cancer on other parts of society. If someone's saying, "I know I'm right because I've got this source of absolute truth here and you're completely wrong for questioning it, should believe as I do" then I get concerned. If someone's only going so far as saying, "I disagree with you because I believe I'm right but you're welcome to live your life according to your own beliefs" then I'm not so worried.

Oh boy! Shall we revisit the classic thread, The Rush to be Right once again?

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

juan, you're so erudite, you leave me speechless!

what did these grins actually mean?

s.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Paladin

If it were possible for a moment to step out of our story then perhaps a meaningful dialog could begin.

Yes, but it's not our normal mode of functioning!

s.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Across the board, when we look at those that express they have belief, we do not see their individually arrived at beliefs but an indoctrination into the established system of the region they find themselves in.

This is generally true I suppose but it is not always the case I believe.

s.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Taosaur

The "cure" I'd offer is more an open, interfaith approach, like that advocated by H.H. The Dalai Lama. Encourage people of all faiths to talk to each other with the assumption that their goals are similar. My experience of power-mongers in religious institutions is mainly American Evangelists, but they rely almost exclusively on fear-of-other directed at other faiths and secular society. The cure for fear-of-other is simple: mingle.

Going back to Paladin's statements, the symbol-sets of religion only stand between the believer and reality when they aren't being used correctly. A functioning symbol-set and body of practice provides the believer with powerful tools for engaging and operating within the human condition. Those same symbols can be perverted by charismatics to act as blinders, but what is needed is a thorough housecleaning, not to burn down the house.

Like it.

s.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

O.K., but what you're really talking about here is how to ease ignorant people into reality.
Chris

Who decides who is "ignorant" and what is "reality"?

s.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Well, that sounds real nice. What I'm saying is that not all concepts are of equal value. So long as whackos are marginalized from the institutions of power I don't have a problem with anyone subscribing to anything they please. But that doesn't mean that everyone's sacred cow pies are of equal, or any worth.

Chris

Who decides the worth / value ?

s.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Paladin

If change needs to happen, I'll give you one guess where it should start.

It might end there, too.

s.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Gotta railroad the idiots off the platform.

Chris

Who decides who the idiots are?

s.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Again, there is nothing wrong with having a belief system, but at least keep in awareness that is what you are doing. One may do or believe anything they wish but stay aware.

Actuality is engaged by the individual when they begin to stop and look. And for all we know the elements found in many religions will be found also in an honest inquiry.

Perhaps the "problem" is clinging to a belief system, our own stories?

s.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

Who decides the worth / value ?

s.

I do!

Chris

[noctuary]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I do!

Chris

No, no. I do!