The Function Of Belief

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Wonderful Tao. But I suppose one would also note the subtle duality of even that position. Not that you personally are affected, but one could cultivate the "role" of observer which may entail a certain detatchment used to insulate one from actively engaging in life as it is. Again, I'm not thinking this is you but I suppose it could happen.

I think that this boils down to the degree of compartmentalisation we have in our interaction with reality. For me its no duality, its a multiplicity. Reality is a kaleidoscope, twist that tube a fraction and its a whole different set of hues. The battle to remain consistent is a challenge in itself - which may be a deep reason why many seek refuge in the certitude of a rigid belief system. But for thinkers/observers, with or without any theological leanings, it is not so much a deliberate act of cultivation as a primary need, like eating. Its in the hard wiring we are born with. Being an observer however one always brings some degree of preconception, no matter how careful you are to remain neutral. But nothing is perfect. "You can only piss with the c**k you've got", as my grandaddy used to say.

Tao

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Kindest Regards!

Good question. I don't have a ready answer, other than to say that beliefs can morph over time. Of course, I'm suggesting "fluid like glass" where you seem to be suggesting "fluid like water."

Water or glass. Each of us changes at a different pace according to their journeys twists and turns. No two of us will ever travel the same route.

I would respectfully disagree. Any person truly of their own volition seeking the things of the spirit continually question themselves. At least I do. Although I do agree the difference is subtle and profound.

My apologies. I keep doing that here and it is really not my intention. I hope you understand that the statement was directed at those kind of people who do not question, or worse, who are afraid to question.

Tao! This is so uncharacteristically illogical of you! And this lends itself to illustrate the underlying foundational beliefs we cling to *in spite of* whether or not they make "logical" sense.

I see your point, but tonight i am too tired to keep my eyes open let alone try to make sense. next time....


Tao

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

I think that this boils down to the degree of compartmentalisation we have in our interaction with reality. For me its no duality, its a multiplicity. Reality is a kaleidoscope, twist that tube a fraction and its a whole different set of hues. The battle to remain consistent is a challenge in itself - which may be a deep reason why many seek refuge in the certitude of a rigid belief system. But for thinkers/observers, with or without any theological leanings, it is not so much a deliberate act of cultivation as a primary need, like eating. Its in the hard wiring we are born with. Being an observer however one always brings some degree of preconception, no matter how careful you are to remain neutral. But nothing is perfect. "You can only piss with the c**k you've got", as my grandaddy used to say.

Tao

Brilliant Tao, your grandaddy must have been quite a pistol!
Still, I often get to thinking about my own neutrality. How is it that I can ever truly be apart from actuality enough to be neutral? If I am an integral part of actuality then how can I observe anything? Am I making any kind of sense here?

[China Cat Sunflower]

I've been mulling over whether I have any use for a personal self identity. For my own solitary purposes I don't see that I do. To myself I don't need a name. I don't think of myself as Chris. I'm aware that I have a body which resides in a specific location, but I don't much identify with my body except that I'm aware of it's physical parameters. Other people may identify me by my name and my body. I use my identity as a marker to hold my place in the grand pecking order, but that identity is rather a mystery to me, having been assigned by others. I can't get outside of myself and turn to observe me like they do, so I'm not really sure what kind of identity they've made for me. It all seems rather fictional and silly to me, but I try to leverage what I imagine to be my identity to get along and push my interests in the world of other people.

Chris

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Brilliant Tao, your grandaddy must have been quite a pistol!
Still, I often get to thinking about my own neutrality. How is it that I can ever truly be apart from actuality enough to be neutral? If I am an integral part of actuality then how can I observe anything? Am I making any kind of sense here?

Of course you are. You can remain aware of your limitations and take them into account. Striving for absolute perfection is futile, you can only take so many facets of actuality into account at any given time. The human mind is an amazing machine, but even the most astute of them rarely if ever has a truly original thought or perception. We each do our best with what we have. The individual is not a tree deep within a vast forest, we are free to explore down any avenue of our choosing. So choices we make will define the actuality we observe. It will never be complete. If we are lucky any study will answer a question, but if it was a worthy question the answer will give birth to many more. I think knowing our limitations is key to remaining neutral. It will never be perfect neutrality, but being aware of the tendency to bias one can go a long way to mitigating the effects.

tao

Chris,

YouTube - You must conform!

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Of course you are. You can remain aware of your limitations and take them into account. Striving for absolute perfection is futile, you can only take so many facets of actuality into account at any given time.

See, this is why I like you so much Tao! This makes so much sense I couldn't agree more!

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I've been mulling over whether I have any use for a personal self identity. For my own solitary purposes I don't see that I do. To myself I don't need a name. I don't think of myself as Chris. I'm aware that I have a body which resides in a specific location, but I don't much identify with my body except that I'm aware of it's physical parameters. Other people may identify me by my name and my body. I use my identity as a marker to hold my place in the grand pecking order, but that identity is rather a mystery to me, having been assigned by others. I can't get outside of myself and turn to observe me like they do, so I'm not really sure what kind of identity they've made for me. It all seems rather fictional and silly to me, but I try to leverage what I imagine to be my identity to get along and push my interests in the world of other people.

You raise some interesting thoughts, China Cat. I'm not sure where to go with them...

I don't call myself by my name, I don't think "Now Juan, today we're gonna do such-n-such." I guess I relate to myself as an invisible given taken for granted. I am, therefore I think - so to speak. Most times I weigh whether or not, what choice to make, shut off the alarm and get up or hit the snooze and catch a few more zzzzzs. OK, Sunshine, get your butt outta bed. Do I really have to? Yeah, you got obligations....and the rest of the day continues in a similar vein.

On those rare occasions when I can set aside all that crap and be in the moment (I guess that's what they call it), casting a line into the water or strolling along a wooded path, that internal conversation kinda melts away into a non-verbal communication.

I think one difference is that I actually enjoy the internal dialogue most times, at least when I am free of or ignoring those "responsibility" must-do-nows. Sometimes it starts with a seemingly random thought, and off I go to explore where it leads. Some people paint, some people play golf, some people go surfing, I like to think.

I don't know if this adds to what you said, or if I was even near the ballpark. I'm not even sure why I'm writing this. For a change I don't even have a point.

[Azure24]

Hello all,

May I just say it's not good to think too much. Thinking too much makes me depressed. In fact thinking too much is caused by doubt and also relates to fear (IMO).

It's not good to always think of "self", it's what makes us insecure. To be honest I always tell myself to think from the inside (to) out, instead of the outside (to) in. Though this is impossible to a certain extent, it is possible when it comes to thoughts of what you do (or youorself). Does anyone know why they do what they do? Sure, you can give reasons, but I'm not so sure...

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Azure24

Hello all,

May I just say it's not good to think too much. Thinking too much makes me depressed. In fact thinking too much is caused by doubt and also relates to fear (IMO).

It's not good to always think of "self", it's what makes us insecure. To be honest I always tell myself to think from the inside (to) out, instead of the outside (to) in. Though this is impossible to a certain extent, it is possible when it comes to thoughts of what you do (or youorself). Does anyone know why they do what they do? Sure, you can give reasons, but I'm not so sure...

I'll have to agreeably disagree, though I do understand what you're saying Azure. I love to think. Thinking is one of my favorite things. You can schedule your unpleasant thinking chores, knock them out, and have lots of time for pleasant thinking enjoyment! As long as you're not an indolent procrastinator this works great. I agree that bummer thoughts are instigated by emotional insecurity and fears

Sometimes I say to myself "I'll remember to be angry about this later." Procrastinator that I am, I forget to get back to it. That's an example of how being a slacker can be good, LOL! It's hard to say no to emotion driven urge-thoughts, even when acting on them in the moment is counterproductive.

I do think that self worth and identity politics are tightly coiled. I spent an enormous amount of time and energy on trying to be some kind of legend, at least in my own mind, when I was a younger man. Identity seemed so important, and I was looking for some kind of style or affectation, some kind of cool identity to become. But I found out that that leads to a lot of butt licking, of which I'm not fond.

Chris

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

You raise some interesting thoughts, China Cat. I'm not sure where to go with them...

I don't call myself by my name, I don't think "Now Juan, today we're gonna do such-n-such." I guess I relate to myself as an invisible given taken for granted. I am, therefore I think - so to speak. Most times I weigh whether or not, what choice to make, shut off the alarm and get up or hit the snooze and catch a few more zzzzzs. OK, Sunshine, get your butt outta bed. Do I really have to? Yeah, you got obligations....and the rest of the day continues in a similar vein.

On those rare occasions when I can set aside all that crap and be in the moment (I guess that's what they call it), casting a line into the water or strolling along a wooded path, that internal conversation kinda melts away into a non-verbal communication.

I think one difference is that I actually enjoy the internal dialogue most times, at least when I am free of or ignoring those "responsibility" must-do-nows. Sometimes it starts with a seemingly random thought, and off I go to explore where it leads. Some people paint, some people play golf, some people go surfing, I like to think.

I don't know if this adds to what you said, or if I was even near the ballpark. I'm not even sure why I'm writing this. For a change I don't even have a point.

Far out!

Chris

[Tao_Equus]

When my first marriage was disintegrating I went to that marriage counselling nonsense. Here i/we were encouraged by the counsellor to spend meditative time on trying to put ourselves in each others heads, to truly try to think as though we were our partner. Aside from immediately asking myself for a divorce this was an incredibly difficult experience. Both in terms of achieving it to any real degree and the resulting emotional confusion it caused.
We all to often in the most superficial sense like to give ourselves a wee pat on the back by thinking we are truly appreciating another's points of view, needs, desires etc. These token gestures are usually sufficient for both parties but they are not putting oneself in another's shoes. I am unsure if it is just me, perhaps I lack empathy but I find truly trying to think the thoughts of someone else exhausting and traumatic.
Why do I write this? (This question is to me). Because it seems to me thinking about what you raised Chris that it is almost equally as difficult to know oneself. In some sense I am a stranger even to myself. Sure my behaviour is quite predictable, my desires, likes and dislikes all well established. But the root, that core essence of me I never chose could almost belong to another I know it so poorly. It really is like we have 2 selves. The core one and the one we by choice build around it. I have no idea where I am going with this, like Juantoo i seem to have reached a dead end with it. But it does rather make a mockery of the counselling if one cannot even know oneself and be expected to know another.

Tao

[Paladin]

Hmmm is it a coincidence that today is James Joyce's birthday?

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

We all to often in the most superficial sense like to give ourselves a wee pat on the back by thinking we are truly appreciating another's points of view, needs, desires etc. These token gestures are usually sufficient for both parties but they are not putting oneself in another's shoes. I am unsure if it is just me, perhaps I lack empathy but I find truly trying to think the thoughts of someone else exhausting and traumatic.

My perceptions of others mostly come from my own casting department and property room. I do take direct impressions from people, and the longer I know them the more dimensional and unique they become to me, but it's always me who casts the character of them in my mind. I'm pretty sure, now, that I made up my own character the same way. On one level I'm the story teller and master of puppets, but on another level I'm just one of the puppets, and on still another level the play is real, such is my immersion in it.

But the root, that core essence of me I never chose could almost belong to another I know it so poorly. It really is like we have 2 selves. The core one and the one we by choice build around it.

Tao

I don't know if there even is a core. Perhaps this knotted up ball of paradoxical string is all there is.

Chris

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by Paladin

Hmmm is it a coincidence that today is James Joyce's birthday?

Do we have to drink green beer?

Chris

[Paladin]

Naw, I think we just keep posting stream of consciousness thoughts without an apparent point, but which lead up to an overall theme describing our own experience with the human condition possibly adding some veracity to the ideas of objectivism.

Or failing that, what goes good with green beer?