The Devil or Lucifer

[Manji2012]

Where do Christians get their devil from? If Jews have a devil, where do they get their's from?

I have heard that the Satan in the garden is not lucifer Like Saint Augustine or Paul interpreted it to be. Satan in the Garden was just an adversary.

So, where do Christians get there devil from? Does Judaism have one? Where does it come from?

[greymare]

as I am neither I can give you only my idea of satan. He is us and by that I mean we are capable of evil (for some its easy toblame it onsatan) and we are capable of good ( praiseing the god) but for me still I feel its all us. good and bad. satan and devil . its just us.

[17th Angel]

Well, they live to a certain degree by holy books right? (Jews/christians), and from the books there is the devil... So that's where they get him from... Simple answer.

[bananabrain]

if you search on the term "ha-satan" on this site, you'll get jewish takes on this.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by Manji2012

Where do Christians get their devil from?

From a philosophical reflection upon the data of the Old and New Testament.

The term 'devil' is, according to St. Gregory, the same as the term 'angel', in that both designate an office, not a nature.

The word 'devil' is from the Greek verb diaballein, "to traduce" — and means a slanderer or an accuser, and thus it is the equivalent of the Hebrew 'satan', which signifies an adversary, or an accuser.

The devil is mentioned in many places in Scripture, but nowhere is there a single, full account. The teaching on this question can only be ascertained by combining a number of scattered references from Genesis to Apocalypse, and reading them in the light of patristic and theological tradition.

(Study the famous tracts, such as the Temptation in the Desert, the Gerasene swine, the rebuke of Peter, and also Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28:12-15; Job 4:18; Wisdom 2:24; Matthew 25:41; Luke 10:18; Luke 11:15, 18; John 12:31, 14:30; Ephesians 2:2; Ephesians 6:11, 16; 1 John 3:8; Jude 1:6; cf. 2 Peter 2:4; Apocalypse 12:10; 12:7-9).

The teaching of the Church in the decrees of the Fourth Lateran Council (1213) says: "the Devil and the other demons were created by God good in their nature, but they by themselves have made themselves evil."

Having said that, from the Medieval era on man has got carried away with the idea and conflated it with all sorts of influences, and we've been inventing on the topic ever since, from Dante to Dennis Wheatley ...

Originally Posted by Manji2012

I have heard that the Satan in the garden is not lucifer Like Saint Augustine or Paul interpreted it to be. Satan in the Garden was just an adversary.

The Fathers were more interested in the principle according to which the tendency operates ... so one can view the Devil, Satan, Lucifer etc., as different, but they are all manifestations of the same principle.

If you want to understand that, then you have to look at Patristic Tradition, St Thomas Aquinas, Dun Scotus ...

Thomas

[wil]

Originally Posted by Manji2012

Where do Christians get their devil from?

Gotta blame it all on somebody. It certainly wasn't me. And I can't keep blaming G!d, so it must be the devil. Yeah, that's the ticket, the devil made me do it.

Get behind me Satan.

Namaste Greymare, you go girl, we are on the same sheet of music. The devil is our creation in our head, no little critter out there. Choice, free will, personal responsibility, heaven forbid!

[Thomas]

Hi Wil —

Originally Posted by wil

Gotta blame it all on somebody. It certainly wasn't me. And I can't keep blaming G!d, so it must be the devil. Yeah, that's the ticket, the devil made me do it.

I'm not sure how this helps the debate. It's axiomatic in traditional Christian doctrine that sin/evil requires the free choice of the will ... so whilst the above excuses echo the excuses of the primordial couple in the garden, any Christian who offers such an excuse simply demonstrates ignorance of the doctrine they're supposed to believe in.

So it's simply reinforcing an old and erroneous stereotype.

Originally Posted by wil

... The devil is our creation in our head, no little critter out there. Choice, free will, personal responsibility, heaven forbid!

That, too, is equally unfounded according to any Christain doctrine.

Thomas

[wil]

Originally Posted by Thomas

...It's axiomatic in traditional Christian doctrine that sin/evil requires the free choice of the will ... so whilst the above excuses echo the excuses of the primordial couple in the garden, any Christian who offers such an excuse simply demonstrates ignorance of the doctrine they're supposed to believe in.

So it's simply reinforcing an old and erroneous stereotype.

That, too, is equally unfounded according to any Christain doctrine.

Thomas

Namaste Thomas,

So I can insure I am understanding what you mean do you take the following as true or false?

a. The devil doesn't make anyone do anything
b. There is no critter called 'the devil'

[flowperson]

C'mon everyone. All this high falutin talk about satanic origins and all that. Anyone with half a brain (and I qualify) knows that the "devil" was created in the 60's on American TV by Flip Wilson.

The devil, as everyone knows, is an amorphous, invisible, wretched presence that makes innocent people do "bad" stuff. Just ask Gloria.

flow....

[Pathless]

Flow, is it true that the Devil went down to Georgia? I've heard rumors and legends.

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by wil

a. The devil doesn't make anyone do anything

Well, according to Scripture, that is not, nor can it be, his modus operandi ... he tempts:

Matthew 4:1
"Then Jesus was led by the spirit into the desert, to be tempted by the devil."

Mark 1:13
"And he was in the desert forty days and forty nights, and was tempted by Satan; and he was with beasts, and the angels ministered to him."

Luke 4:2
"For the space of forty days; and was tempted by the devil. And he ate nothing in those days; and when they were ended, he was hungry."

+++

Now from a Hebraic standpoint one might argue this is simply the outward personification of an inward human tendency ... and indeed in the Hebrew scriptures temptation seems to reside with man, man tempts God rather than God tempts man, with one notable exception:

Genesis 22:1
"After these things, God tempted Abraham ... "

Whereas Christian doctrine seems explicit:
James 1:13-14
"Let no man, when he is tempted, say that he is tempted by God. For God is not a tempter of evils, and he tempteth no man. But every man is tempted by his own concupiscence, being drawn away and allured."

This then puts the source of temptation squarely with and in man — he is tempted by his own concupiscence, no other — but this assumes that such is the natural activity of the intellect and the faculties, and Christian doctrine is adamant on the point that man was made good, and being made good, there is no rational reason to suppose he should suffer disorder, his essential nature become corrupt ... and by the same token there is no rational reason in man as to why he should choose the lesser good ... there is nothing in Scripture to suggest that man was created with a fundamental flaw which overtook him — quite the opposite.

Therefore there must be something, contrary to his reason and nature, that somehow attracted him.

The serpent in the Garden signifies that man chooses to serve himself, but in so doing he chose not to serve God, his creator, but rather incline himself toward something other ... and there is perhaps a meaningful speculation on why the tempter in the garden is a creature and not a person ... why at that moment it could not present itself in human form.

Corinthians 10:13
"Let no temptation take hold on you, but such as is human. And God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that which you are able: but will make also with temptation issue, that you may be able to bear it."

It is axiomatic, and obvious, that man is never tempted beyond his capacity to endure, otherwise every man would succumb to his base desires (only man, employing torture, does this — the temptation being the cessation of pain if he will betray himself, pain beyond endurance — and thus breaks a fundamental moral absolute).

+++

It is of enormous significance that Christ was tempted by the devil at the start of His ministry ... but in the moment of His greatest human weakness, the Passion in the Garden of Gethsemane, it was the frailty of His humanity that cried out, of its own accord, and not through sufferance of any exterior agency (in the movie The Passion, the devil is seen watching ... )

So in Scripture I would say there is a clear distinction between the inherent frailty of a fallen human nature, and an active and privative agency which would seem to possess a rational intellect — albeit itself disordered.

Originally Posted by wil

b. There is no critter called 'the devil'

Scripture would suggest otherwise.

May I ask, if you so summarily discount the demonic orders, do you likewise discount the angelic? The supernatural altogether?

Thomas

[wil]

Originally Posted by Thomas

May I ask, if you so summarily discount the demonic orders, do you likewise discount the angelic? The supernatural altogether?

At this juncture I'd say yes. I categorize it all as descriptions of our condition, choices, consequences. Supernatural, it is all natural, we simply have yet the 'science' to prove or understand it. No miracles, and it is all a miracle.

[wil]

I may not believe in the Devil, but I do believe in synchronicity!

Tevet 9, 5768 * December 18, 2007

=======================
W E E K L Y S T O R Y
=======================

Sly Arrogance
By Yossy Gordon
---------------

One of the followers of Rabbi DovBer of Lubavitch (the "Mitteler Rebbe, 1773-1827) was known for
studying and praying with great devotion, and displaying a kind, gentle manner to others. Yet, he
still had a serious character flaw. He greatly admired his own virtues. Afraid that he was growing
arrogant, the chassid decided to approach his Rebbe for guidance.

After hearing the chassid describe his predicament, Rabbi DovBer was silent for a moment, and then
responded:

When G‑d created the world, He created both good and evil. After these two elements came into
being, they came before G‑d and asked for their respective missions. "Spread the light of goodness
and kindness in the world," G‑d instructed the Good Side. "This is achieved by making people aware
of their Creator."

G‑d then instructed the Evil Side to combat the good, thereby giving people the choice and
opportunity to overcome adversity. The Evil Side asked, "But will I be able to do my job? Will people
really listen to me?" When the Creator responded in the affirmative, the Evil Side asked to be told
its name. "You will be called the Serpent," said the Creator.

Upon hearing this, the Serpent became worried. He was afraid that his name alone would frighten
people away and doom his mission. "Have no fear," reassured G‑d, "you will succeed."

Indeed, the Serpent was successful in misleading Eve to sin, convincing her to eat from the forbidden
fruit in the Garden of Eden and to share her sin with Adam. After eating from the same fruit, G‑d
banished the pair from Eden, and thus began all of life's challenges.

However, when Adam and Eve realized their sin, they repented completely and managed to atone for
their folly. Seeing the holiness that now permeated their lives, the Serpent came before the Creator
again: "Destroy me," he implored. "I will never be able to succeed now!"

"Have no fear," responded the Creator. "I will change your name to Angel of Death. No one will
recognize you."

The Evil Side – disguised as the Angel of Death – did his sinister work for generations, until
our grandparents Abraham and Sarah began spreading the knowledge of G‑d in their surroundings.
Forlorn, the Angel of Death complained again that his job was too difficult, well-nigh impossible.
"Fear not," said the Creator, "I will change your name again. From now on, you will be known as
Satan. No one will recognize you."

So, Satan began his career. His work went well until Moses made his appearance. When he began
teaching Torah, Satan was ready to throw in the towel for good. He appeared before the Creator asking
for a merciful end; now he truly felt useless. Again, his name was changed. This time, he was renamed
"Arrogance."

Arrogance now began his career. This time, his disguise was so good that he even penetrated houses of
Torah learning. The more a true scholar studies, the more he realizes how little he really knows.
However, under the influence of Arrogance, people would study and not be humbled by their knowledge.
Instead, they assumed airs of superiority and looked down with disdain at the unlearned. Of course,
they sugarcoated these feelings by claiming to defend the dignity of their knowledge, not their own
person.

This continued until Rabbi Israel Baal Shem Tov arrived in this world. He revealed the true unity of
G‑d, before whom all are equal—no matter their level of scholarship.

Again the Evil Side came before the Creator, disguised as Arrogance, asking for a merciful end. Again
his name was changed. This time instead of plain Arrogance, it would be known as "Fear of Arrogance."
Being less bold than plain old Arrogance, Fear of Arrogance could do its work in peace.

"Now listen here," concluded the Mitteler Rebbe, "you should know that Fear of Arrogance is
Arrogance, who is Satan, who is the Angel of Death, who is the Serpent himself! Quickly, throw him
out of your house because your life is at risk!"[1]


Footnotes:
1. Sources: Shmuos V'Sippurim, vol. 2, pp. 169-170; Rshimos Dvorim, vol. 4, pp. 187-189. See also
Otzar Sippurei Chabad Volume 16 pp. 48-50.


- Rabbi Yossy Gordon was born in Worcester, MA, and serves as Executive Director of the Chabad on
Campus International Foundation. Rabbi Gordon makes his home in Miami Beach, FL, with his wife Rochel
and their five children.

- To view this article on the Web, or to post a comment, please click here:
Sly Arrogance - Fables & Parables .

[Bruce Michael]

Originally Posted by Manji2012

Where do Christians get their devil from? If Jews have a devil, where do they get their's from?

Greetings Manji,
They get it from spiritual reality. You correctly state that the Devil is Lucifer-
interesting the word Devil is meant to be derived from diabolos, but the Sanskrit Deva means "being of light", which could connect with Lucifer "Lightbearer".

Some folk will direct you to a book or two and say the conception comes from "so and so"- but as always the buck has to stop with the individual who wrote that book. And no, God does not write books- if He did they would be infinitely better than anything we have!

Jesus didn't write any books and was not a "prophet".

Originally Posted by Manji2012

I have heard that the Satan in the garden is not lucifer Like Saint Augustine or Paul interpreted it to be. Satan in the Garden was just an adversary.

This is difficult- it was a "Luciferic influence". The Serpent had a right to approach Man.
Satan is a different being to Lucifer.

God Bless,
Br.Bruce

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by wil

At this juncture I'd say yes. I categorize it all as descriptions of our condition, choices, consequences. Supernatural, it is all natural, we simply have yet the 'science' to prove or understand it. No miracles, and it is all a miracle.

So not a Christian in any meaningful sense then?

Thomas