The Devil or Lucifer

[China Cat Sunflower]

I think of Satan, or the Serpent as the principle of terrestrial electricity, or friction. The positive pole of the opposing forces that generate the life animating spark of electrical energy must have an opposing force, or negative grounding point that sets up the friction. But friction causes things to wear out, or die. Thinking of Satan in this electrical context as the "Prince of this World" makes for an interesting muse.

Chris

[Thomas]

Hi Wil —

When I asked if you reject anything supernatural, you replied:

Originally Posted by wil

At this juncture I'd say yes. I categorize it all as descriptions of our condition, choices, consequences. Supernatural, it is all natural, we simply have yet the 'science' to prove or understand it.

Well that's a denial of the supernatural.

Originally Posted by wil

I believe in G!d...

And then you express a belief in something — which for some reason you can't bring yourself to spell the word ... something which by any Christian definition is super-natural...

Originally Posted by wil

what you call supernatural I believe is natural, we've just lost access.

So that brings everything back within your sphere of comfortability ... and I'm sorry, but I have no idea where you actually stand. As I said, it's either athiesm (God just covers physical principles we don't yet understand) or pantheism (everything is God).

Thomas

[Thomas]

Hi Chris —

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

If we accept the idea that rationalizing the Mystery leads to spiritually bereft humanism where the mystery, as you rightly said, becomes merely an intellectual exercise, then the flip side is that mystifying the rational leads to an intellectually bereft, pseudo rational form of superstition which functions as a self-perpetuating mechanism for preserving a mindset of ignorance that feeds the authority of the power structure.

That's why you cannot separate the two. But the Church does not separate the two, as the document "Fides et Ratio" says, faith and reason are the two wings on which man ascends.

The implicit assumption, that the Church's authority rests purely on ignorance, can be easily dismissed. Some of the world's mmost profound philosophy was the product of Christian ... dare I say Catholic ... thinkers.

Thomas

[Raksha]

Being a good person is not what Christianity is about.

Thomas,

And there you have it in a nutshell--the reason so many people have rejected Christianity. If "being a good person" isn't at least an absolute prerequisite for being a Christian--and I do mean absolute here!--then all the rest is worthless. I've run into too many self-described Christians lately who think being "saved" (whatever the hell that means) and "saving" others is the important thing, and that being a good person is "nice" but optional.

This mindset has always existed within Christianity, and in every single case, when it has predominated historically--such as during the Inquisition--it has given Christianity one more black mark that never washes out. It becomes one more atrocity for the apologisits to rationalize and lie about and indulge in endless revisionism over, but they still fail to convince anyone but the most gullible no matter what kind of intellectual contortions they indulge in.

Secular humanism is my bedrock, my default position, and absolutely and without apology--my litmus test. For example: I would never consider voting for any candidate for public office who was not a secular humanist first and foremost. Whatever else they might believe, or what role religion plays in their lives, is a personal issue. But if they are stealth theocrats, or if I even suspect they MIGHT be, I don't give them the benefit of the doubt. We have too many of that kind in public life in the U.S. already, and it simply isn't safe for the majority to ignore their theocratic agenda, which is not and never has been innocuous or "personal." They have every intention of imposing it on the rest of us when and if they get into power no matter what they say.

If "being a good person is not what Christianity is about" than it simply isn't safe for Americans who cherish the Bill of Rights to vote for self-described Christians. A lot of Christians would disagree with you, however, which is a good thing since Christianity is very much the majority religion in this country.

--Linda

[Raksha]

If we accept the idea that rationalizing the Mystery leads to spiritually bereft humanism where the mystery, as you rightly said, becomes merely an intellectual exercise, then the flip side is that mystifying the rational leads to an intellectually bereft, pseudo rational form of superstition which functions as a self-perpetuating mechanism for preserving a mindset of ignorance that feeds the authority of the power structure.

Chris,

Very well stated. "Mystifying the rational" is an excellent characterization of so-called "intelligent design" aka "creationism." By trying to "harmonize" them without applying proper intellectual rigor you end up with something that is neither mystery nor rationality.

--Linda

[Azure24]

Hello, Raksha.

May I say to you what is a good? To be a good person? Is it to keep everyone happy? Is it to be joyful and to give everyone kisses? No and No.

"…come to you in SHEEP’S clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves" (Matt. 7:15).

But you could spot one of these "wolves" a mile off, couldn’t you? Just look for the GIANT TEETH that Little Red Riding Hood encountered, right?

"O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched [Gk: ‘to fascinate by false representations] you…" (Gal. 3:1).

The "wolves" COME IN SHEEP’S CLOTHING! You don’t see their teeth. They don’t show their teeth. They only show you a huggie huggie kissie kissie pious religious smile. THAT my friends, that pious front, IS the "sheep’s clothing." Wolves BITE, and their bite can be deadly...

[34] "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. (Matthew 10:34)

[16] ...and out of his mouth [Jesus] came a sharp double-edged sword... (Revelation 1:16)

This 'Sword' is the word of God which saves people.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Azure24

[16] ...and out of his mouth [Jesus] came a sharp double-edged sword... (Revelation 1:16)

This 'Sword' is the word of God which saves people.

Sorry, swords save? I thought they took life, not gave life....?

[Azure24]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Sorry, swords save? I thought they took life, not gave life....?

You are being sarcastic aren't you?

Let us read this again but S-L-O-W-L-Y

Originally Posted by Azure24

This 'Sword' is the word of God...

The Whole Bible is not to be taken literally

Is this literal?

"Now at their eating, Jesus, taking the bread, and, blessing, breaks it, and, giving to the disciples, said, ‘Take eat [this bread], This [bread] ISmy body" (Matt. 26:26).

In this metaphor, the bread is a symbol. Is there anyone who cannot recognize that Christ used bread from the table as a "symbol" of something?

No. I hear?

"I am the BREAD OF LIFE..." (John 6:35).

"For we, who are many, are ONE BREAD, ONE BODY, for we all are partaking of the ONE BREAD" (I Cor. 10:17).

"The Jews, then, murmured concerning Him, that He said, ‘I AM the Bread which descends out of heaven." (John 6:41).

"I am the living Bread ... Now the Bread also, which I shall be giving for the sake of the life of the world IS MY FLESH" (John 6:51).

That says it all of course it is symbolic...

Is the 'sword' i mentioned the same one that kills people? Let's see shall we...

[3]They sharpen their tongues like swords... (Psalm64:3)

Did you notice the 'like' in the above passage...

[13]So Joshua overcame the Amalekite army with the sword.(Exodus 17:13)

Did you notice how it says 'the' sword and not 'a' sword in the above passage...

[15]He saves the needy from the sword in their mouth; he saves them from the clutches of the powerful. (Job 15:15)

Do real swords come out of people's mouth's? Or do words? Like say the word of God? I'll let you answer that one...

Here's more:

[7]See what they spew from their mouths— they spew out swords from their lips, and they say, "Who can hear us?" (Psalm 59:7)

[2]He made my mouth like a sharpened sword...(Isaiah 49:2)

[16]In his right hand he held seven stars, and out of his mouth came a sharp double-edged sword. (Revelation 1:16)

[16]Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. (Revelation 2:16)

[15]Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. (Revelation 19:15)

[21]The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse... (Revelation 19:21)

Need I say more if you believe i was speaking of a literal sword...

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Azure24

The Whole Bible is not to be taken literally

Obviously, if we did, it would mean donkey's could talk, dragons are real, god will kill everyone, we'd all become eunuchs for god, I would use hardened human crap to help cook my food, be out there killing fortune tellers aaaand so on

Originally Posted by Azure24

You are being sarcastic aren't you?
Let us read this again but S-L-O-W-L-Y

Not really..... Why is the word sword used to describe the word of god which saves? That I do not understand... As you said yourself...

Originally Posted by Azure24

[21]The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse...

Was that the word of god?

Also why did they die? If it was only words?

[Azure24]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Obviously...

Oh, so you konw...

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Not really..... Why is the word sword used to describe the word of god which saves? That I do not understand... As you said yourself...

I did not say i didn't understand?

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Was that the word of god?

Also why did they die? If it was only words?

If you believe that they were killed by a real sword, then you should also believe that "...the kings of the earth and their armies..." (with guns and all)
were killed by "...the rider on a horse (Jesus)..." (with only a sword)

Was that the word of God? Yes it was!

[17]Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. (Ephesians 6:17)

and another...

[12]For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12)

This is God's explanation not mine. I know nothing.

[Azure24]

...And if you still don't understand.

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Why is the word sword used to describe the word of god which saves? That I do not understand...

here's your answer because...

Originally Posted by Azure24

...it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. (Hebrews 4:12)

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Also why did they die? If it was only words?

Did they die?

Originally Posted by Azure24

The Whole Bible is not to be taken literally

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Obviously...

Especially the Book of Revelation...

"...and he sent and SIGNIFIED it by his angel unto his servant John" (Rev. 1:1)

What does it mean to "signify?" Certainly this prophecy of the revelation or unveiling of Christ was written down (ver. 19), but it means more than just that. To "signify" has to do with signs and symbols. From my Webster's Twentieth Century Dictionary p. 1541, first definition of signify:

"to make known by signs or words".

[17th Angel]

OH f...for goodness sake lol......

I said I don't freaking understand! I then said;

As you said:

Originally Posted by Azure24
[21]The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse...


So the words which was a sword that came from Jesus (Saws) saves because it is the word of god....... But here some guy on a horse killed some people with his words..... Yet they are exactly the same how they are described? So are they translated from Hebrew correctly? Meaning that the two are described as the same thing, MEANING I am confused how it can kill and save. That was what I was attempting to explain....

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

OH f...for goodness sake lol......

I said I don't freaking understand! I then said;

As you said:

Originally Posted by Azure24
[21]The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse...


So the words which was a sword that came from Jesus (Saws) saves because it is the word of god....... But here some guy on a horse killed some people with his words..... Yet they are exactly the same how they are described? So are they translated from Hebrew correctly? Meaning that the two are described as the same thing, MEANING I am confused how it can kill and save. That was what I was attempting to explain....

Here, 17th, is the larger context of the scripture:

Matt 10
Christ Brings Division


34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. 35 For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; 36 and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’ 37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.
A Cup of Cold Water


40 “He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me. 41 He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward. And he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man’s reward. 42 And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water in the name of a disciple, assuredly, I say to you, he shall by no means lose his reward.”

Family members will be divided over the two-edged sword that cuts both ways that is the Word of God. What did Jesus say about how to treat your enemies?

Luke 6
27 “But I say to you who hear: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who spitefully use you. 29 To him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also. And from him who takes away your cloak, do not withhold your tunic either. 30 Give to everyone who asks of you. And from him who takes away your goods do not ask them back. 31 And just as you want men to do to you, you also do to them likewise.
32 “But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you hope to receive back, what credit is that to you? For even sinners lend to sinners to receive as much back. 35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High. For He is kind to the unthankful and evil. 36 Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.

The best lesson we can learn from the sword is mercy, especially from a sword that cuts both ways. The same bible that we use to condemn others can be used against our selves when we violate its principles. As it says in the book of James, chapter 2:

8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

[seattlegal]

The other action of using the two-edged sword is what we call on another board "liberation through mutual exorcism." In order for this to work, it requires mutual respect and compassion. Like any exorcism, it can get rather ugly. However, it can be quite useful for those who have the humility required to appreciate the benefits, and the self-control to not lose their mind and become destructively radical in the process.

[Bishadi]

Where do Christians get their devil from? If Jews have a devil, where do they get their's from?

Same place; created.

I have heard that the Satan in the garden is not lucifer Like Saint Augustine or Paul interpreted it to be. Satan in the Garden was just an adversary.

It was a story.

So, where do Christians get there devil from? Does Judaism have one? Where does it come from?

Came from lack of knowledge or understanding of personal faults.

There is no devil. Each and every perception of choice offers a setting to recognize that thing isolated from existence; the self.

That is your devil. Always has been!

Each is just as capable of being evil as the next. Follow the rules of existence and never know the beast.

Good: supports life.

Bad: loss to the common.

The human experience of sentience is the only form capable of being a 'loss to the common.'

Funny how the truth sets each free of the bonds of ignorance.

Simply hold yourself responsible to each action taken and even if imposed upon, learn the lesson as to hate is a selfishly imposed idea.

For example; ignorance allows the the devil existence as each can become isolated based on misunderstandings of the truth.

A separate thing of existence, represented as an isolated for causing ill regard, know as the devil or satan, does not exist.