The decline of Religious influence and the increase of Police

[Kaldayen]

Unfortunate eh?
___
Kal

[Faithfulservant]

And to those Christians who support this idea I ask this, would you still support it if this new state religion required you to renounce Christ?

Because you asked I will answer.. I believe this is going to happen and I also believe that I wont be here when it does.. because thats when the anti-christ will be in power.

My opinion on this is extreme.. when they seperated church from state they took any moral accountability that our government and society had.

My view on the U.S. history is such that we left a country to form a new one with the freedom to worship God as each individual wanted.. God was still the basis on which this country was founded. Its on our currency.. its in our pledge of allegience.. it in our anthems and our declaration of independence. With the seperation of church and state we see the increase of moral decline in our society. I also believe that our country and its leaders will be held accountable before God for that fact.. So I pray for my country always that God continues to bless us despite those that remove Him from its very core.

FS

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by Bandit

this is the way i got it growing up. it was all incorporated into one system. the church, the parents, the leaders, the schools were all doing something for others & they were in agreement.

I think that can come to pass again, but there will be much reform required ...

Originally Posted by Bandit

people say more education is the answer, but that has not shown to be true either.

I wouldn't give up on education. In George Carlin's most recent HBO special, he reminded us that here in the US we've gone from Head Start to No Child Left Behind ... "sounds like someone's losing ground here." And no small wonder. In 2005, the US spent over $437 billion on military, which is more than every other nation combined!!! That is also well over 50% of our total spending for the entire year!!! How much did we spend on education? Well, of the supposed meagre $34.32 billion that Bush pledged ... only a paltry $24.52 billion ever actually showed up. That's ummm, slightly out of proportion - to our military spending. So maybe if we gave education a chance, for starters by paying our teachers a decent wage, and by revamping the whole system, so that we stopped sending unprepared, under-educated dolts out into our society & workforce, just maybe things wouldn't be so bad. I feel quite passionately about the importance of a good education, and I think the shortcomings rest not with our teachers (by & large), but with those who are supposed to be leading this great country of ours. What a great example they set ...

Originally Posted by Kaldayen

some don't have the same possibilities than others, and it's getting worse every day.

We need to see responsible governments encouraging community and personal efforts and creating social programs and access to education. That's not what we see nowadays... we see the exact opposite and some leaders even claim they're working in God's name.

Here in the US, and also in some countries abroad (but especially here), the filthy stinking materialistic rich are getting billionaire-buddy-fund-richer .... while those who already have little, are receiving little-er, and those with nothing, are almost becoming an untouchables class. You know, the caste system in India did not start out that way, but look what happened. A Brahmin (the "priestly" caste, the Pharisees & Sadducees) in India will have nothing to do with an "untouchable," because of caste. In his eyes, the latter is less than, not as worthy. Pity - that here in the US, whether admitted or not, this is the same attitude that the aristocracy maintain. We have no middle class ... and right now our goverment is making matters worse, by ensuring that we won't have one! Those who would minister to the needy, and lobby for the provision to those without, which is exactly the kind of Christian ideals (being put into action) which Christ advocated ... are scoffed at, called "bleeding-hearts" (as if that were a bad thing), and told that people must work, not live off of handouts. And yet people are forced into the lowest of jobs, with no benefits, with sweatshop conditions, and that's if they are fortunate enough to find work at all! Many have various addictions, or mental illness, and they need help. What about the social programs that might help them? More budget cuts, gotta fight those Iraqis, gotta build bigger, better bombers, gotta build more nukes, the war machine keeps turnin' ...

And when someone dares nowadays to bring these things up (which is Patriotism, par excellence, in my book), our misguided leaders take swift action to cry traitor, and terrorist, and Commie, and whatever else they can come up with to put down the rebellion. Some people at CR will remember McCarthyism, and some of us ... are too young, but can nonetheless feel the disgusting waves of fear & paranoia that still resound in the ethers, just 50 years later. My God, it's happening all over again ...

Originally Posted by path_of_one

There are many in the States who would consider themselves "religious" and go to church on Sunday, but still have no problem lying, cheating, stealing, and overall being buttheads the rest of the week. This is one part of the decline of religion- it isn't just more people becoming atheists.

Exactly ... and the converse is certainly true, as you say here:

Originally Posted by path_of_one

Some of the most moral people I know are secular humanists or agnostics

As Bandit, and others, have said ... it has to do with what's in the heart, not what we preach. Has to do with how we live our lives from day to day, how we treat others, and why ... not whether we toss a fifty, or a five, in the collection plate - of if we even go to church at all.

Personally, I am quite proud of my First Amendment Rights ... in this still-great nation ... and I fear the day when some back-country, short-sighted, narrow-minded zealot & demagogue steps up and forces me to bow down to his personal, tribal god. Oh wait ...

To me, that is blasphemy, and tyranny, and a form of totalitarianism, and only proves how far out of tune, how much out of step, we really are ... from the BandLeader (name Him if you will, or not at all, if you prefer).

The churches, imo, could play a vital role in helping Humanity to come to know, and live by, spiritual values ... and many churches are so doing. In other situations, I'm afraid that the churches have failed to keep up with the times, and still insist on looking thousands of years into the past - when what we need, is guidance for the present, and to help us through these times of amazing change ... with all of the technology that Bandit and others have referred to. Nothing wrong with technology, electronic or otherwise, just so we use it properly. Worship the idiot box over in the corner, or sprawled out across the whole wall (as it is nowadays), and lo, we have our reward. Will it make any difference if we flip to the televangelist channel? Nope. You'll just go broke a lot faster!

But I don't think we can scapegoat the churches, or the government (easy as that would be today!), nor the schools, nor any other instituation in our society ... for the lack of morals and "family values" that is devastating our nation. We must not forget, that the family itself is where so much of this inculcation comes from, and when I do find myself wandering through Target, or Sears, or the grocery store, what I often notice is children without any discipline, and parents/adults who behave like children. I used to wonder why so many people home-school their children, and I had serious doubts about the whole prospect. Now, I understand completely. And I find it a wonderful idea!!! And I know that those who do a very careful job, still manage to help their children understand the value of interaction with others, and often these very home-schoolers are better able to teach their children the importance of Community, and of responsibility to one's fellow members of society, and of one's country ... than the public schools (for all their lack of funding).

I have been very privileged to see firsthand a number of Communities that also managed to beautifully and wonderfully embody the ideals of a Sustainable Society (being discussed in this, and other threads at present) ... perhaps decades (or even centuries) ahead of the rest of us! I learned a great deal by being among these people, and by sharing something of the Heaven on Earth which they truly live, every day. Interestingly, not a one of them are founded on conventional religious principles, at least not as embodied by any one religion. Yet they are by no means secular, either, welcoming all, but being extremely principled, and quite spiritual. Perhaps it has something to do, with getting beyond the stage where we try to dictate to others, what they should believe, and lording our particular religious choice(s) ... over others. That - will never work. Surely we know this by now ....

andrew

[Faithfulservant]

As a person that receives Earned Income Credit every year.. I believe that I have been a partaker in some of that money spent each year by our taxpayers.. God Bless America.

I have a question though.. how did you understand anything George Carlin says? I cant get beyond the language barrier.

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

I have a question though.. how did you understand anything George Carlin says? I cant get beyond the language barrier.

lol ... Watch the first 3 minutes of his latest HBO special. It's kind of a, Carlin "rap," and it's amazingly cool. It is a commentary on society unto itself, and one can get the gist in about 10 seconds, even if you only understand every third word! Listen to the whole thing, and if you're like me, you may just be sitting there saying, My God, My God! (It's cuz he's right! I would link you to a transcript, if I knew where one is. Definitely worth hearing/reading/seeing!)

andrew

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by taijasi

I wouldn't give up on education.
andrew

i am not saying it is not important because it is . but what i am seeing (including 3 people i work with) is an I am smarter than you type of thinking & everyone else is stupid & lower than i am. that is not what education is supposed to do.

i am smarter so therefore I am, sarcasm is what is creeping in today- actually no- it is more than what we might realize an over all bad attitude. the whole world is stupid except for me. it is odd because people who do that truly believe they are smarter than everyone else...at least for awhile they do. no one cant be taken down a few notches & we all know that if we are smart & educated.
right?

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by Bandit

i am not saying it is not important because it is . but what i am seeing (including 3 people i work with) is an I am smarter than you type of thinking & everyone else is stupid & lower than i am. that is not what education is supposed to do.

i am smarter so therefore I am, sarcasm is what is creeping in today- actually no- it is more than what we might realize an over all bad attitude. the whole world is stupid except for me. it is odd because people who do that truly believe they are smarter than everyone else...at least for awhile they do. no one cant be taken down a few notches & we all know that if we are smart & educated.
right?

Well, it is certainly a form of pride ... and also the mark of the intellect, before it is spiritually redeemed, in my way of thinking. Humility doesn't come overnight, and many will go to their graves thoroughly convinced that they are "god's gift to mankind," as the saying goes ...

I still appreciate my father's joke on the matter, which I think he must have told when I got my BA, then again when I got my Masters. He was a University professor, himself ... and quite erudite, but he is also a country feller at heart - and quite in touch with his roots, especially now in his retirement.

The joke runs, that a fresh young PhD candidate has just emerged from the lecture hall after successfully defending his Doctoral dissertation. As he starts to rush across the street, a car has to slam on brakes to avoid hitting him, and the guy leans out the window and yells, "Get outta the way, stupid!" The proud young scholar stops, turns on a dime, and says, "That's Doctor Stupid!"

I like to wear that grin, when people forget humility.

andrew

[Bandit]

i just had a real good conversation with my aunt about this. another thing that is bizzare is i dont think people would even know how to cut down trees for firewood if they needed to in order to survive the cold winter, let alone all the complaining the children would do if they had to leave their hours of video games & actually haul the wood into the house.

we certainly dont want them to know how to milk a cow or plant corn, just play games all day & learn how to make crystal meth.

taking a walk down to the river & the local ball park was a big deal & a lot of fun. (some people still enjoy that kind of life)

there was a time when the family NEEDED each other & it was understood.

so what has happened is, all our needs are met by the push of a button & those who lived real hard lives are not being sought after for wisdom, creating another lack of respect & the cycle of youth merging with the elderly to learn diminishes to nothing. another family value shot in the wind cause grandma is old & she knows nothing- but the truth is she knows a LOT!

the young people need to know these values & i dont think they are all getting it any more.

that is a big no no in my eyes.

& then i sit here & spend all this time at my computer chatting trying to make sense of what went wrong. but i am very sick with a flu right now & there aint much else that i can do. cant wait til summer so i can plant & grow my own veggies again...the same way Grandma used to do. snapping beans on the front porch swing for a family meal with Grandma & eating strawberries fresh from the garden with dirt on them while getting all dirty & pull a few weeds.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by taijasi

Well, it is certainly a form of pride ... and also the mark of the intellect, before it is spiritually redeemed, in my way of thinking. Humility doesn't come overnight, and many will go to their graves thoroughly convinced that they are "god's gift to mankind," as the saying goes ...

I still appreciate my father's joke on the matter, which I think he must have told when I got my BA, then again when I got my Masters. He was a University professor, himself ... and quite erudite, but he is also a country feller at heart - and quite in touch with his roots, especially now in his retirement.

The joke runs, that a fresh young PhD candidate has just emerged from the lecture hall after successfully defending his Doctoral dissertation. As he starts to rush across the street, a car has to slam on brakes to avoid hitting him, and the guy leans out the window and yells, "Get outta the way, stupid!" The proud young scholar stops, turns on a dime, and says, "That's Doctor Stupid!"

I like to wear that grin, when people forget humility.

andrew

exactly . we are seeing the same picture. i got three of those in my employee & i hear it all the time. i just nod as they go on & on & on & on. humility is a good thing & a value that we should all have.

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by Bandit

taking a walk down to the river & the local ball park was a big deal & a lot of fun. (some people still enjoy that kind of life)

there was a time when the family NEEDED each other & it was understood.

so what has happened is, all our needs are met by the push of a button & those who lived real hard lives are not being sought after for wisdom, creating another lack of respect & the cycle of youth merging with the elderly to learn diminishes to nothing. another family value shot in the wind cause grandma is old & she knows nothing- but the truth is she knows a LOT!

the young people need to know these values & i dont think they are all getting it any more.

cant wait til summer so i can plant & grow my own veggies again...the same way Grandma used to do. snapping beans on the front porch swing for a family meal with Grandma & eating strawberries fresh from the garden with dirt on them while getting all dirty & pull a few weeds.

Bingo! I think you've said volumes in this post ...

andrew

[wil]

another thing that is bizzare is i dont think people would even know how to cut down trees for firewood if they needed to in order to survive the cold winter, let alone all the complaining the children would do if they had to leave their hours of video games & actually haul the wood into the house....we certainly dont want them to know how to milk a cow or plant corn, just play games all day ...taking a walk down to the river & the local ball park was a big deal & a lot of fun. (some people still enjoy that kind of life)...there was a time when the family NEEDED each other & it was understood....the young people need to know these values & i dont think they are all getting it any more....that is a big no no in my eyes. ...& then i sit here & spend all this time at my computer chatting trying to make sense of what went wrong. but i am very sick with a flu right now & there aint much else that i can do. cant wait til summer so i can plant & grow my own veggies again..

I really don't know how endemic this is. At my house we have a 16" dial tv..no vid games, no microwave...I live in the burbs...we play card games and board games and dictionary...we sing in the car, play the alphabet games, and listen to oldtime radio, and the kids are my copilots...reading the maps...no dvd players, electronic games or ipods...during the power outages we cook and heat with the woodstove and read by hurricane lamp till bedtime....course at their mom's house where they spend half their time...4 occupants, 5 tvs, video games and the works....its a balance...

If push came to shove there will still be the haves and have nots you either have the skills to survive or you don't...the gold will shuffle hands once again...

[suanni]

i'm not so sure that the decline in social standards has to do with the decline of the influence of the church, although it does seem to be coincidental.
Bear in mind I can only speak for my own country and with my own opinions based upon memory.
I think the decline has more to do with do gooders doing more harm than good. The decline towards the church had already begun when I was a nipper and lawlessness and increasing violence had not hit. But at the time juvenile detention centres (borstal) still existed, the children's home was still waiting there for kids who refused to go to school, the education man would come knocking on the door if pupils failed to attend school. It was considered shameful to be put in either and if you broke the law you would be named and 'shamed' in the local papers. Most kids' understanding of borstal was that it was a horrible place to go to and the vast majority wished to avoid it at all costs so we behaved ourselves. If a woman found herself pregnant before marriage, the baby would either be raised by the family or given up for adoption, or aborted. It was considered bad to be a single mother and the children who were born to such were given some nasty names. Corporal punishment still existed in all schools, ranging from the cane to the strap. Rarely used but it was a sufficient deterrent to prevent the vast majority of kids going off the rails in school. The system worked. From the moment we all could walk and talk morality sank in just through this simple system, the formative years of our lives. We knew what was right and wrong and knew if we crossed the line apart from the horrors we all associated with borstal that we would be chucking our adult lives away, we wouldn't get employed. For the younger element there was the horror of being removed from the family home to be placed in a children's home.
Then the do-gooders stepped in Naming and shaming in the papers was done away with. It was no longer shameful to be a single mother, didn't matter how many babies the single mother bore to different fathers and the children didn't carry any stigma either. Borstal was removed and given a softer option...and from those kids I've spoken to who've been in such places, it was a holiday camp. The kids don't fear it and gain respect by their peers by being in it. Corporal punishment was removed. There's no punishment left. Its got nothing to do with the influence or lack of, of the church/religion.
Those who've to learn a good moral code know they've got the upper hand. Kids can assault adults/do what they want. If an adult attempts to defend themselves from the kids they're charged with assaulting a minor.
There are more 'rewards' for the lawless than ever before. There is no reward bar living by your own moral code to living a good and moral life.
The children who went wild, created as much mayhem as they wanted, rewarded for doing so are now producing their own children. Pity help the country.
It was coincidental that around the same time that the laws in this country were being changed that revelations about shameful/unlawful actions on behalf of church officials came to the front which really did push a lot of the congregation away. Then the churches decided to change their services in order to attract more into the church. This only served to alienate the faithful and they began to drift away from the church.
How can combining state with religion redress this? It can't. The laws of the country need to be redressed with regard to youth disorder. The rewards to the lawless needs to be changed to punishment to the lawless.
As far as I'm aware both state and religion are still combined in the UK. The monarch is head of the church/defender of the faith.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Instead of having the social civility enforced from without, why not stick with that which has worked more or less for thousands of years (religious convictions enforcing the social civility from within)?

Of course this would require our social leaders changing course in mid-stream
v/r

Q

I agree that the old system should have been adherred to. Why mend something when it wasn't broken? And it did work for hundreds of years. Although some will claim that the beginnings of the disorder was the removal of the death penalty in this country but it seemed to me when officials started meddling with the juvenile system that all went wrong.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by wil

I really don't know how endemic this is. At my house we have a 16" dial tv..no vid games, no microwave...I live in the burbs...we play card games and board games and dictionary...we sing in the car, play the alphabet games, and listen to oldtime radio, and the kids are my copilots...reading the maps...no dvd players, electronic games or ipods...during the power outages we cook and heat with the woodstove and read by hurricane lamp till bedtime....course at their mom's house where they spend half their time...4 occupants, 5 tvs, video games and the works....its a balance...

If push came to shove there will still be the haves and have nots you either have the skills to survive or you don't...the gold will shuffle hands once again...

very cool. i am glad to hear that, Wil. balancing it out. that way they will know there is actually another way other than just pushing buttons, for when the buttons fail.

i remember the dAYS of dial TV & still have a couple. it was not so bad. especially since i always misplace the remote. i actually put a string on one remote for awhile & tied it to the TV. LOL

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by suanni

i'm not so sure that the decline in social standards has to do with the decline of the influence of the church, although it does seem to be coincidental.
Bear in mind I can only speak for my own country and with my own opinions based upon memory.
I think the decline has more to do with do gooders doing more harm than good. The decline towards the church had already begun when I was a nipper and lawlessness and increasing violence had not hit. But at the time juvenile detention centres (borstal) still existed, the children's home was still waiting there for kids who refused to go to school, the education man would come knocking on the door if pupils failed to attend school. It was considered shameful to be put in either and if you broke the law you would be named and 'shamed' in the local papers. Most kids' understanding of borstal was that it was a horrible place to go to and the vast majority wished to avoid it at all costs so we behaved ourselves. If a woman found herself pregnant before marriage, the baby would either be raised by the family or given up for adoption, or aborted. It was considered bad to be a single mother and the children who were born to such were given some nasty names. Corporal punishment still existed in all schools, ranging from the cane to the strap. Rarely used but it was a sufficient deterrent to prevent the vast majority of kids going off the rails in school. The system worked. From the moment we all could walk and talk morality sank in just through this simple system, the formative years of our lives. We knew what was right and wrong and knew if we crossed the line apart from the horrors we all associated with borstal that we would be chucking our adult lives away, we wouldn't get employed. For the younger element there was the horror of being removed from the family home to be placed in a children's home.
Then the do-gooders stepped in Naming and shaming in the papers was done away with. It was no longer shameful to be a single mother, didn't matter how many babies the single mother bore to different fathers and the children didn't carry any stigma either. Borstal was removed and given a softer option...and from those kids I've spoken to who've been in such places, it was a holiday camp. The kids don't fear it and gain respect by their peers by being in it. Corporal punishment was removed. There's no punishment left. Its got nothing to do with the influence or lack of, of the church/religion.
Those who've to learn a good moral code know they've got the upper hand. Kids can assault adults/do what they want. If an adult attempts to defend themselves from the kids they're charged with assaulting a minor.
There are more 'rewards' for the lawless than ever before. There is no reward bar living by your own moral code to living a good and moral life.
The children who went wild, created as much mayhem as they wanted, rewarded for doing so are now producing their own children. Pity help the country.
It was coincidental that around the same time that the laws in this country were being changed that revelations about shameful/unlawful actions on behalf of church officials came to the front which really did push a lot of the congregation away. Then the churches decided to change their services in order to attract more into the church. This only served to alienate the faithful and they began to drift away from the church.
How can combining state with religion redress this? It can't. The laws of the country need to be redressed with regard to youth disorder. The rewards to the lawless needs to be changed to punishment to the lawless.
As far as I'm aware both state and religion are still combined in the UK. The monarch is head of the church/defender of the faith.



I agree that the old system should have been adherred to. Why mend something when it wasn't broken? And it did work for hundreds of years. Although some will claim that the beginnings of the disorder was the removal of the death penalty in this country but it seemed to me when officials started meddling with the juvenile system that all went wrong.

I couldnt have said it so well and Im in agreement. This generation has failed to learn or have healthy respect for the consequences of their decisions.

[taijasi]

Originally Posted by wil

I really don't know how endemic this is. At my house we have a 16" dial tv..no vid games, no microwave...I live in the burbs...we play card games and board games and dictionary...we sing in the car, play the alphabet games, and listen to oldtime radio, and the kids are my copilots...reading the maps...no dvd players, electronic games or ipods...during the power outages we cook and heat with the woodstove and read by hurricane lamp till bedtime....course at their mom's house where they spend half their time...4 occupants, 5 tvs, video games and the works....its a balance...

If push came to shove there will still be the haves and have nots you either have the skills to survive or you don't...the gold will shuffle hands once again...

Wil, you're a rare - but I hope not a dying! - breed. I hope many more will turn on, tune in, and ... wait, different trip. Dropping/out may not be the answer, but I'm pretty sure the "turning on, tuning in" is.

andrew