The Death of Jesus In The Qur'an

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I'm currently finishing my PhD in cultural anthropology

Cool. I love anthropology. During my first two years as an undergrad, I intended to major in it. What is your thesis? (If you don't mind my asking)

[Friend]

Originally Posted by Path_of_One
but we are really discussing polygyny, which does not allow one woman to marry more than one man (which is termed polyandry). There is still a focus on restricting women's sexuality and confining the woman to only one partner, her husband. While some maintain that this is "natural" and that men generally want more than one partner while women do not, that has little basis when we look to cross-cultural studies and animal behavior studies. If free to do so, females typically will mate with more than one male, hence human males' preoccupation with coming up with a system that keeps them from doing so.

Hi there

Why Not Polyandry (plurality of husbands for the same women?)
It is evident that the nature of women is physiologically and psychologically different from that of men. Psychologically speaking, the woman is monogamous by her very nature. Furthermore, in all cultures, new and old, the headship of the family is normally man’s. One can imagine what would happen if the family had two or more heads. Furthermore, if the woman was married to more than one husband, which would be the father of her children?

my friend as much as the science progress and provide us new knowledges my faith in my religion become stronger....We all know about the genes map of the human being and that each one of us have his own map and the people in the same family have common or similar genes,when close people or enates whom are from the same family like cousins are marry the possibility of the genetic diseases will increase
so what will happened if two human being make relation with each other without knowing that they are very close like brothers ????( Which may be happened when women make many relations ,and the children doesn't know their fathers ).the marriage organization save the society from many problems including the healthy problems......and the most important issue behind the prevent or unacceptable of woman Polyandry is to save the Pedigrees or Lineages .( so we as humans be different from animals).

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

I suppose I'm just looking for an excuse, although this thread is in the Islam forum originally it wasn't until moved.. I'm just pissed off about Islam I suppose

In which case, please respect the Muslims here by not posting inflammatory comments against Islam.

Most of the Christians and Muslims here show great restraint by allowing one another to express their own opinions regarding their own faiths, without challenging them directly from a different faith perspective.

Please post more responsibly, otherwise I may have to pre-moderate your comments before they are published.

[madina]

Postmaster, what exactly pisses you off about Islam? are you even reading material that the muslims are posting? how can we help clear up any misconceptions? do you realize that Islam is all about submitting to God, about family, equality, peace, charity? please, seek facts.

[Postmaster]

I didn't mean it out of offence, I meant it out of honesty, I'm aware of the tension between both the faiths, I'm not talking about it on a humanise level, I'm talking about it on a religious level. I'm sure many Muslims are annoyed with Christianity too, I haven't got a problem with it, or the people... I suppose I should pick my words better, or maybe explain myself better. Fact is Christianity is older then Islam and then you get Islam twisting the bible, sure it would annoy Christians or am I mistaken here? Jesus was sent by God to die on the Cross and he knew his mission well before it happened, God did not do it because he was preaching falseness.. Other wise, why would it be the largest religion in the world? Our Gods people really reading falseness? All the technology of the west is being used in the east and our world is a great place, our we really that evil? Is majority vote evil too?



God has shown who is right anyway..

[arthra]

Postmaster wrote:

Fact is Christianity is older then Islam and then you get Islam twisting the bible, sure it would annoy Christians or am I mistaken here? Jesus was sent by God to die on the Cross and he knew his mission well before it happened, God did not do it because he was preaching falseness.. Other wise, why would it be the largest religion in the world? Our Gods people really reading falseness? All the technology of the west is being used in the east and our world is a great place, our we really that evil? Is majority vote evil too?

My comments:

Maybe there's something we can learn Postmaster from this,

if you consider that Judaism is older than Christianity and many Jews are annoyed that Christians are "twisting the Bible"..... "or am i mistaken here?"

Each dispensation does in some ways reinterpet the preceding one. Actually, what i think is occuring is that it isn't really a reinterpretation so much as a restoration of the original truths for the age the new dispensation is revealed in.

So it's like you're in a train car that is actually stationary and another train is passing nearby. You have this sensation looking out the window of your train of movement seeing the other train passing by, but in reality you're not moving at all.

Now as to your second comment I also find interesting and possible something we can explore:

Postmaster:

"....why would it be the largest religion in the world? Our Gods people really reading falseness? All the technology of the west is being used in the east and our world is a great place, our we really that evil? Is majority vote evil too?"

My Comment:

Today, numerically, Christianity is the largest religion in the world, but it was not always the case. At one time it was largely restricted to Europe... later as the European powers expanded through colonialism and Empire building, Christian missionaries travelled throughout these newly conquered lands.

First came explorers and traders...then the military came to protect the traders and later the missionaries followed...of course the order could be different in some cases...maybe missionaries came with the traders, or whatever.

The point is Christianity often spread through conquest and trade.

What accounted for the technological "advantages" of Europe? We're pretty sure today that what fueled the Renaissance was the translation of Arabic texts into Latin in the Universities of Italy, Spain, etc. In other words, Europe stood on the shoulders of the advances made by Islamic civilization.

And in turn, Islamic civilization combined earlier contributions from India, China, Persia, Egypt and Greece....

So that's how Europe achieved some advantages that were used to build the old colonial empires. I wouldn't think this expansion though was always commendable or exemplary as there was acompanied with it a lot of racism and puffed up nationalist ideas of superiority.

I would say that Christianity while it is currently the largst religion today, it is fractured into thousands of sects and denominations and continues to split itself... so there is lack of cohesion. In time, this process of splitting will in my view actually cause the collapse of Christianity as we know it today...Just as many of the previously old line churches are emptying their membership so will the popular chuches today become the empty hulks of tomorrow and so on...So for all it's numbers Christianity is in many ways very weak and fragmented.

We are fast becoming a world civilization and have many challenges to meet and we can no longer afford nationalism that ignores interdependence on other nations.

- Art

[Postmaster]

if you consider that Judaism is older than Christianity and many Jews are annoyed that Christians are "twisting the Bible"..... "or am i mistaken here?"

How did Jesus twist the bible? We still use the exact same Hebrew old testament... Jesus in fact verified it as truth, did he say Moses wasn't the chosen prophet, ect ect..? The New testament is different book and that's what Islam twisted.

[arthra]

i|?Ah?tmaster]How did Jesus twist the bible? we still use the exact same Hebrew old testament... Jesus in fact verified it as truth, did he say Moses wasn't the chosen prophet, ect ect..? Islam in my view was a step back from peace or maybe a step foward from Paganism.[/quote]

Wait a minute there Postmaster!

I never wrote that Jesus twisted the Bible...er rather the Torah.

In my view Jesus restored the main spiritaul message of Torah.

Ask your Jewish friends though how they feel about Christians reinterpreting their scriptures...

The point is, every dispensation does this.

Take some time to explore this!

- Art

[Postmaster]

Nope wrong... Christianity never did that with Judaism. If you compare heresy of Judaism compared to Christianity you haven't got much because it's an extension, some would argue that there isn't even any at all. However you compare heresy from Christianity to Islam, you got something really wrong..

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Nope wrong... Christianity never did that with Judaism. If you compare heresy of Judaism compared to Christianity you haven't got much because it's an extension, some would argue that there isn't even any at all. However you compare heresy from Christianity to Islam, you got something really wrong..

I have to admit, as a Christ-follower, this has not been my experience. In my comparative studies of Judaism and Christianity, and talking things over with Jews, the following often are considered heretical or "wrong interpretations" by Jews:

1. Jesus as God, which is the dominant way of thinking about him in Christianity. To a Jew, God is a One Divine Entity. There can be no trinity, because God is always One and One only. Jewish people tell me that to worship Jesus is to break the first commandment.
2. Jews believe that God made all things perfect and as they should be. They say that Christians view of Satan makes God's creation of the angels imperfect, because the angels were messengers of God and had no free will according to Judaism. Thus, the Christian Satan, who has free will and fights God and is often framed as God's enemy and "winning" in some people's hearts, appears as a pseudo-deity compared to the Jewish Satan, who is the angel of temptation and death and judgment, the "adversary" and "prosecutor," an entity that is just doing his job as God commands him. Jews believe that God created both good and evil in order that we may grow spiritually, and OT scripture supports this (even the translations in English).
3. Jews do not believe in an eternal hell. They believe that those who fail to put spirituality and righteousness as a strong priority in life will spend time away from God after death in order to learn the lessons they missed. Some Jews believe reincarnation may occur to learn lessons. Hell ("Gehenna") is a metaphor for this separation from God for us to learn our lessons and attain righteousness and a spiritual connection to God.
4. Jews do not believe that the OT God is wrathful, judgmental, and unyielding. They believe their Father God is just but also merciful, and if one tries hard in life to be righteous, one will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. They did not have the idea that perfection was required, which is how many Christians view it: that Jesus is mediating between humans and the Father, who is unable to let them into heaven without the covering of Jesus.
5. Jews do not believe God is gendered. In the Torah, the Hebrew words for God alternatively are masculine, feminine, and plural. This was to show that God was not gendered. God was beyond gender and had no physical form. Some Christians believe in the non-corporeal Jewish version of God, others I know believe in the masculine, corporeal God as Father and Son.
6. Jews never had the idea that Gentiles had any obligation to follow the law. They tell me that Gentiles are judged based on cultivating spirituality and ethical action (righteousness), just as Jews are, but they are not judged under the law because that was exclusive to the Jewish people. One can convert to Judaism, but they do not believe that non-Jewish people automatically cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. This is one of the reasons many of them have problems with Christianity, which typically professes to be the only way for everybody in the world.
7. Jews never saw the Messiah as God. The Messiah was King. This gets back to #1.

That's just a few off the top of my head, and some Jews definitely consider central tenets of Christianity to be heretical. If Jews considered the NT to be simply an extension of the OT, as Christians do, they would likely be Christians and not Jews. The fact that they reject many teachings and/or interpretations of the NT is evidence that they do not agree that it is a simple extension.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Friend

Why Not Polyandry (plurality of husbands for the same women?)
It is evident that the nature of women is physiologically and psychologically different from that of men. Psychologically speaking, the woman is monogamous by her very nature. Furthermore, in all cultures, new and old, the headship of the family is normally man’s. One can imagine what would happen if the family had two or more heads. Furthermore, if the woman was married to more than one husband, which would be the father of her children?
......and the most important issue behind the prevent or unacceptable of woman Polyandry is to save the Pedigrees or Lineages .( so we as humans be different from animals).

Hello. You are certainly welcome to keep your beliefs, and I respect them. However, science does not agree with what you are saying here; I am happy to provide references if you like.
1. It is a falsehood that women are monogamous by our very nature. The widespread (in nearly every culture on earth and every time on earth) problems of adultery by women, and the preoccupation with keeping women from interacting with other men in a sexual way is testimony to this. Women typically do not have as high a sex drive as men, but sex drive and number of partners are two separate issues. The evidence is that women struggle with lust and commitment to a single man, just as men struggle with lust and commitment to a single woman.
2. It is not true that in all cultures throughout time, men are typically the head of household. In many cultures, the headship is shared equally between men and women or women had the dominant say in the household- not just modern cultures, but also in practically all hunter-gatherer societies (which made up about 90% of human history) and in most horticultural societies. Most pastoral societies (such as those in the Middle East) and agricultural soceities (ancient Europe, most of Asia) are patriarchal. Many cultures have gotten along just fine for millenia with women as heads of household or as equals.
3. Many families have two or more heads in many different cultures. Sometimes it is a shared headship between the adult men and women (married together), sometimes it is shared among adults of multiple generations (father and son, mother and daughter). Speaking from experience from a successful marriage in which we are equal partners and equal in our headship of the household, it isn't that difficult if you are respectful of one another and of like mind to begin with.
4. Polyandry (more than one man with one woman) does occur in some societies, though it is rare. It works fine for them.
5. In societies in which polyandry is the norm, or in which little emphasis is place on the finding the "real" father, lineage is typically calculated through the mother or is not important. Many cultures care little about pedigrees, or simply reckon them through the mother since there can be no mistakes there. In some societies, women and children live separate from the men or live with the mother's kin (brothers, father, etc.) so the father is hardly present in the child's life and the chief fatherly responsibilities fall on one's uncle. In some societies, there is little property (such as among hunter-gatherers), so lineage doesn't much matter because there is no inheritance. Children are raised by their parents by marriage and by the entire group as a whole, and it really doesn't matter terribly if they are not biologically the child of the father.
6. Genetic studies have shown that there is virtually no impact of cousins producing children. There is a problem if brothers and sisters or parents/children reproduce. There are many cultures in the world in which marrying a cousin is the best marriage choice and is encouraged and they have not suffered genetic defects. The worst genetic defects seem to occur in small, closed population groups in which no external genetic information can come in to the group. If the group is sufficiently large and open, cousin-marriage does not seem to be a problem.
7. I do not believe that what separates humans and animals is attention to lineage and/or pedigree. I would wager that most people would disagree with that, though they'd give different reasons for the distinction depending on their religion. But especially because many humans do not care much about lineage/pedigree, that can't be the dividing line between us and animals, at least not scientifically.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Abogado del Diablo

Cool. I love anthropology. During my first two years as an undergrad, I intended to major in it. What is your thesis? (If you don't mind my asking)

I never mind anyone asking! My thesis is on the economics and ecology of family cattle ranchers in the United States. I'm focusing on rangeland management decision-making. My theoretical focus is on how people experience their landscape, the link between spirituality and cultural assumptions and practical decision-making and action, and how to promote conservation to people with widely diverse cultural backgrounds and relationships to the land.

I nearly double-majored in religious studies, so that's my other intellectual passion and why I end up on forums like this!

[Friend]

Hi all here

The Holy Quran confirms that Jesus (PUH) was born miraculously without the intervention of any man, but that event is compared to the creation of Adam (PUH) Who had no parents at all: God willed it and it took place. Similarly, the miracles performed by Jesus (PUH) have been recounted and confirmed, but, like the miracles of all Prophet, they are counted as manifestations of the Might and Power of the Creator

According to Islam, Jesus never died on the cross, nor ever wanted to die on the cross, nor ever was born to die on the cross. Muslims believe that Jesus was sentenced to death, and people thought that he got executed on the cross. The Holy Quran rejects this idea .

Let's look at verse 4:156-159"That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjunction to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them."

Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take you and raise you to Myself and clear you of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow you superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall you all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein you dispute." (Holy Quran, Al-Imran, 3:55)

And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgment): therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow you Me: this is a Straight Way.
(Holy Quran, Az-Zukhuruf, 43:61)

verse 4:171-172"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say Of Allah ought but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) A Messenger of Allah, And His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and the Spirit proceeding From Him: so believe In Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Trinity": desist: It will be better for you: For Allah is One God: Glory to Him: (Far Exalted is He) above Having a son. To Him (Allah) Belong all things in the heavens And on earth. And enough Is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

Christ disdained no To serve and worship Allah, Nor do the angels, those Nearest (to Allah): Those who disdain His worship and are arrogant, He will gather them all Together unto Himself (Jesus) to (answer)."

For those whom interested , you can visit this site :

http://www.jamaat.net/cis/ChristInIslam.html

[Friend]

Hi
In reply to Path_of_One

It is not true that in all cultures throughout time, men are typically the head of household. In many cultures, the headship is shared equally between men and women or women had the dominant say in the household- not just modern cultures, but also in practically all hunter-gatherer societies (which made up about 90% of human history) and in most horticultural societies. Most pastoral societies (such as those in the Middle East) and agricultural soceities (ancient Europe, most of Asia) are patriarchal. Many cultures have gotten along just fine for millenia with women as heads of household or as equals.

I'm not agree with your point here ,because often man is the head of the family this is what the past and modern history provied ......you can tell me which name you have the name of your father or the name of your mother ...in your culture even the wives take the name of their husband after married .and in the near history the heirs coefficients in the west culture defferentiate between men and women which reflict the position of each one ...I'm not talking here about the helping in the household affaires ...but I'm talking about the final decissions in the family ...I know that many family taking the decisions togather but the average rate through the history movement proved that the man is the head .

In societies in which polyandry is the norm, or in which little emphasis is place on the finding the "real" father, lineage is typically calculated through the mother or is not important. Many cultures care little about pedigrees, or simply reckon them through the mother since there can be no mistakes there. In some societies, women and children live separate from the men or live with the mother's kin (brothers, father, etc.) so the father is hardly present in the child's life and the chief fatherly responsibilities fall on one's uncle. In some societies, there is little property (such as among hunter-gatherers), so lineage doesn't much matter because there is no inheritance. Children are raised by their parents by marriage and by the entire group as a whole, and it really doesn't matter terribly if they are not biologically the child of the father.

My friend I'm not talking here if the societies accepting this or not , or if the existence of father is important or not ....I'm talking about the real identity of the person from the heirdom point of view ...the question is can the children of one mother which have many husbands determine their attributing and their brothers and sisters from their real father ????????????
at the same time the children with one father which have more than one wives ...can they determine their lineage and kins ??????

Genetic studies have shown that there is virtually no impact of cousins producing children. There is a problem if brothers and sisters or parents/children reproduce. There are many cultures in the world in which marrying a cousin is the best marriage choice and is encouraged and they have not suffered genetic defects. The worst genetic defects seem to occur in small, closed population groups in which no external genetic information can come in to the group. If the group is sufficiently large and open, cousin-marriage does not seem to be a problem.

Specifically ,this point I saw it in my eyes because in my culture as you told marrying a cousin is the best marriage choice , and do you know what happened many disease appears in the children which resulted from this kind of marriage ...like ( Thalassemia disease), and now the people convince about the hadith of our messenger Mohammad(PUH) that called to be far away from kins marriage.

[Postmaster]

I don't like to make long posts and explain myself because sometimes it doesn't matter what you say there's always an opposing argument...

1. Jesus as God, which is the dominant way of thinking about him in Christianity. To a Jew, God is a One Divine Entity. There can be no trinity, because God is always One and One only. Jewish people tell me that to worship Jesus is to break the first commandment.
2. Jews believe that God made all things perfect and as they should be. They say that Christians view of Satan makes God's creation of the angels imperfect, because the angels were messengers of God and had no free will according to Judaism. Thus, the Christian Satan, who has free will and fights God and is often framed as God's enemy and "winning" in some people's hearts, appears as a pseudo-deity compared to the Jewish Satan, who is the angel of temptation and death and judgment, the "adversary" and "prosecutor," an entity that is just doing his job as God commands him. Jews believe that God created both good and evil in order that we may grow spiritually, and OT scripture supports this (even the translations in English).
3. Jews do not believe in an eternal hell. They believe that those who fail to put spirituality and righteousness as a strong priority in life will spend time away from God after death in order to learn the lessons they missed. Some Jews believe reincarnation may occur to learn lessons. Hell ("Gehenna") is a metaphor for this separation from God for us to learn our lessons and attain righteousness and a spiritual connection to God.
4. Jews do not believe that the OT God is wrathful, judgmental, and unyielding. They believe their Father God is just but also merciful, and if one tries hard in life to be righteous, one will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. They did not have the idea that perfection was required, which is how many Christians view it: that Jesus is mediating between humans and the Father, who is unable to let them into heaven without the covering of Jesus.
5. Jews do not believe God is gendered. In the Torah, the Hebrew words for God alternatively are masculine, feminine, and plural. This was to show that God was not gendered. God was beyond gender and had no physical form. Some Christians believe in the non-corporeal Jewish version of God, others I know believe in the masculine, corporeal God as Father and Son.
6. Jews never had the idea that Gentiles had any obligation to follow the law. They tell me that Gentiles are judged based on cultivating spirituality and ethical action (righteousness), just as Jews are, but they are not judged under the law because that was exclusive to the Jewish people. One can convert to Judaism, but they do not believe that non-Jewish people automatically cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven. This is one of the reasons many of them have problems with Christianity, which typically professes to be the only way for everybody in the world.
7. Jews never saw the Messiah as God. The Messiah was King. This gets back to #1.

Do you have to go all technical? Did Chrsit prove himself enough to have the authority to edit the words of God to serve the next generation of people?. End of the day Islam is a blatant Anti-Christ religion, may have something to do with anti-west, something Alexander the Great may be guilty for Personally I don't blame them, or maybe we can, maybe they are just as bad? Only God knows.. By "them" I mean people of the middle east, because the difference between west and east is like night and day. If there really is a right or wrong, I suppose there is a chance I could be guilty myself