The Cunning Arts....

[bgruagach]

Originally Posted by Bruce Michael

You are quite correct Impqueen. If they were invading, where did they come from?

Christianity is a Middle Eastern religion, but it didn't spread from the Middle East to Europe.

Christianity came to Europe via Ireland and the Irish missionaries. Places like Iona hold special significance.

I once saw a TV program that expounded upon the idea that, early on, Christian refugees from Syria landed in Ireland. It gave proofs of place names and street names- and also racial identity. It would be interesting to see today, with DNA testing, whether this is true.


Blessing,
Br.Bruce

Ummmm... what about Rome, and the Roman Catholic Church? That's in Italy, which is part of Europe the last time I checked.

Christianity existed in Rome even when Rome was officially Pagan. There's lots of historical evidence about the early Christians being persecuted in Rome -- for instance, Nero blamed the fire in AD 64 on the Christians. In AD 313 Rome was declared officially Christian by the Emperor Constantine.

The first missionary to Ireland however is believed to have been Palladius, who died sometime around AD 475-461. Most consider Ireland to have converted to Christianity thanks to the work of St. Patrick, who died either in AD 461 or in AD 493 (depending on which historical figure was the "real" St. Patrick -- there are two candidates!)

In any case, Ireland wasn't considered Christian until more than a hundred years after Rome was, so it's highly unlikely that Ireland was the starting point for Christianity in Europe.

[Impqueen]

I wasn't suggesting that the history of Christianity isn't bloody, just that the immediate conversion of Britain wasn't an invasion.

I didn't think the English witch craze was really connected to the Inquisition... which I thought mainly targetted Jews and Christian heretics. I'll go off and read the essay.

[bgruagach]

Originally Posted by Impqueen

I wasn't suggesting that the history of Christianity isn't bloody, just that the immediate conversion of Britain wasn't an invasion.

I didn't think the English witch craze was really connected to the Inquisition... which I thought mainly targetted Jews and Christian heretics. I'll go off and read the essay.

It could be argued that any influx of newcomers to the British Isles wasn't "really" an invasion. Regardless what we call it, it still means that a new cultural group came to the shores of the British Isles and had an impact on the people who lived there. It's also part of the historical record that many of these waves of newcomers involved bloodshed and at least some conflict.

The essay linked earlier was specifically about the Inquisition. For information about the witch hunts in the British Isles, check out The Great Witch Hunt: The Persecution of Witches in England, 1550-1660 - [2003] AukULRev 3; (2003) 9(4) Auckland University Law Review 1152 I'd also suggest Owen Davies' books "Witchcraft, Magic and Culture 1736-1951" and "Cunning-Folk" for solid historical information about the witch hunts as well as cunning folk and folk magick practices in the UK prior to when Gerald Gardner appeared on the scene in the 1950s.

[Eclectic Mystic]

What's the most that can come of this? Studying nature so that you can manipulate it is like studying the chemical analysis of water so that you can become a better sailor.

Magick is not to be confused with magic. There is nothing cunning about it as it in fact seeks to solve all the effeminate gibberish that detracts one from their True Will which is one-pointed. Don't forget, also, that the ability to deceive is directly proportionate to one's ability to be deceived.

Without trascendence, certain dead-weight-losses will never be accounted for when left soley to lunar energies. Look at Persephone who was bound to Hades. What a waste. Look at the she-bitch Hecate, whose "cunningness" is simply a last-resort attempt to deny her barren wretchedness and envy. Compare her to the more unassailable Artemis who is more united with her fellow gods. To be such a good archer one must be vigilant of subtlties but not idly caught up in them.

Nature is not just, only precice. The oh-so-overrated theory Darwinism supports siblicide under the premise that the older sibling is more "fit" when in reality the older sibling is, due randomly to its age, only more fit at that moment-- ignoring the unmanifested yet very real potential of the younger sibling. Unfortunately, no kind of witchcraft or plant and animal magic by itself can account for this deadweight loss. If the younger sibling counters with the same visciousness it is only continuing this DWL trend of Darwinism.

[bgruagach]

Interesting opinions, Eclectic Mystic, but personally I don't agree with much of what you posted just now.

I'm not sure where you picked up the impression that studying the cunning arts, or magickal spirituality in general, is like "studying the chemical analysis of water so that you can become a better sailor." Some who study and work magick focus on theurgy -- magick for the purpose of communing or uniting with the Divine and thus perfecting one's self/soul. Others, who study and work magick for more practical ends, tend to see the Divine as not merely transcendent but also as immanent or present in Creation. To ignore the Divine in Creation in order to focus exclusively on the transcendent strikes me personally as a rather peculiar way to honour the Divine.

The statements about specific goddesses, and sexist derogatory judgements about what others might or might not be doing just betrays a shallow understanding. Deities are not mere stereotypes any more than people are. To truly understand a deity, or to grasp the motives behind why someone might be working for a particular goal, we need to work long and hard to get to know them. I've been with my spouse for nineteen years now and I am not foolish enough to assume I know everything there is to know about him -- why would I think that I could judge a stranger, or a god or goddess, based on less information?

And I really don't know where you were going with the anti-Darwin commentary. The cunning arts are related to science in the same way cooking and music and the arts in general are related to science -- we can gain a lot of insight by approaching them in a scientific way, and can be more effective by being aware of the science, but there is a huge amount of art involved as well. And art is about emotion and spirit, which are hardly reducible to equations.

[Eclectic Mystic]

Clever.

Not impressive, but clever.

[17th Angel]

*chuckles*

[Eclectic Mystic]

I'll dryly summarize what I was trying to say:

The Moon can be wonderous as is displayed by exalted gods and godesses like Artemis and Isis. Perhaps they are cunning, but being cunning isn't what makes them exalted. Hecate is a she-bitch (she'll attest to that).

It is the nature of the Moon to reflect the Sun. When the Moon is not united with other energies it can lead to idleness and distracting jibber-jabber. Since staring directly into the sun is a waste of time, then isn't also studying the dark side of the moon for its own sake a waste of time for the same reason?

Persephone had her fate decided for her because she was not protected.

Some may say something like "that's just your opinion" to which I would respond "who else's opinion would it be?"

[Eclectic Mystic]

If what I'm expressing still doesn't make sense, then perhaps a Qabalic explaination will do (if you don't care about Qabalah feel free not to tell me about it);

9+9=18

=1+8=9

Also, 9+9+9=9.

9+9+9+9=9

9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9=9

9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9 still equals 9.

See a trend? What's the most that can come of this?

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Eclectic Mystic

9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9+9 still equals 9.

Forgive my math skill, but, that has to at least come to like 200? lol

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by Eclectic Mystic

It is the nature of the Moon to reflect the Sun. When the Moon is not united with other energies it can lead to idleness and distracting jibber-jabber. Since staring directly into the sun is a waste of time, then isn't also studying the dark side of the moon for its own sake a waste of time for the same reason?

Now that's a very interesting point.

[bgruagach]

It is the nature of the Moon to reflect the Sun. When the Moon is not united with other energies it can lead to idleness and distracting jibber-jabber. Since staring directly into the sun is a waste of time, then isn't also studying the dark side of the moon for its own sake a waste of time for the same reason?

Nice imagery -- but it's a completely inaccurate metaphor with regard to either the cunning arts or magickal spirituality.

It's like dismissing scientists who specialize in a particular field or even a particular topic because it's supposedly the equivalent of "staring at the sun" or wasting time on "jibber-jabber."

"One true way" thinking might be nice and tidy and comforting but many of us find life is a lot messier and uncertain. Some of us find the Divine and Creation are worth honouring as They are rather than by imposing an artificial human-invented ideal onto Them.

[wil]

Originally Posted by 17th Angel

Forgive my math skill, but, that has to at least come to like 200? lol

Numerology, summing the numbers until you get a number less than ten. So any multiple of nine ends up back at nine.

[Impqueen]

Originally Posted by bgruagach

It could be argued that any influx of newcomers to the British Isles wasn't "really" an invasion. Regardless what we call it, it still means that a new cultural group came to the shores of the British Isles and had an impact on the people who lived there. It's also part of the historical record that many of these waves of newcomers involved bloodshed and at least some conflict.

But surely the conversion to Christianity of the people of the British Isles involved conversion of those who were already there, with a few newcomers in the form of missionary monks. The pagan Anglo-Saxons didn't ship out back to the lands they came from to make space for the Christians, they became the Christians. When the Anglos-Saxons, Danes and Normans came, they were invasions. Really though, we're getting into semantics here because I chose to be a little jokey about 17th's use of the term 'invasion'. Silly me.

[Bruce Michael]

Originally Posted by bgruagach

It could be argued that any influx of newcomers to the British Isles wasn't "really" an invasion. Regardless what we call it, it still means that a new cultural group came to the shores of the British Isles and had an impact on the people who lived there. It's also part of the historical record that many of these waves of newcomers involved bloodshed and at least some conflict.

The essay linked earlier was specifically about the Inquisition. For information about the witch hunts in the British Isles, check out The Great Witch Hunt: The Persecution of Witches in England, 1550-1660 - [2003] AukULRev 3; (2003) 9(4) Auckland University Law Review 1152 I'd also suggest Owen Davies' books "Witchcraft, Magic and Culture 1736-1951" and "Cunning-Folk" for solid historical information about the witch hunts as well as cunning folk and folk magick practices in the UK prior to when Gerald Gardner appeared on the scene in the 1950s.

Dear Ben,
Of course there were many invasions from non-Christian peoples such as the Vikings and the Romans.

The Roman departure from Britain was completed by 410.

Christianity was easily accepted by the Druids- there really wasn't a bloody revolution there. The mysteries of Hibernia were presentient to the Christian Sun Mystery- discussed in The Flaming Door: Mission of the Celtic Folk Soul
by Eleanor C. Merry.
"This volume is a preliminary study of the mission of the Celtic folk-soul by means of legends and myths. This book deals chiefly, as a beginning, with ancient Hibernia and Wales. The Celtic mysteries have a peculiar destiny, in that they contain an impulse of rebirth, not in their own original form, but as the bearers of a light to lighten the way to a renewed, a nobler Christianity. "


Even before Christianity, Ireland was known as the Sacred Island. It was also called Scotia or Scotland down to the eleventh century. Celtic Christianity was the order of the day before Rome took charge.

Celtic Christianity, or Insular Christianity (sometimes commonly called the Celtic Church) broadly refers to the Early Medieval Christian practice that developed around the Irish Sea in the fifth and sixth centuries: that is, among Celtic/British peoples such as the Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Cornish, Manx, Cumbrians (the inhabitants of the British Isles excepting the Anglo-Saxons and some Picts). By extension, it may refer to the monastic networks founded as satellite institutions of Celtic communities in Scotland and the Continent, especially Gaul (France).

Most of the later bloodshed can be accounted for in the fights between the Protestants and the Catholics.

Blessings,
Br.Bruce