The Cross

[path_of_one]

1. I was never Jewish. So there is no reason that I should be under Jewish law. I follow Christ as a Gentile, but Christ never asked me to become a Jew or to give up my ancestors' ways, provided they were aligned with the Noahide Laws. Perhaps Jews are not supposed to have any images in worship, but this was not extended to everyone else on the planet. The Noahide Law only says that idolatry is forbidden.

2. I could care less what the Babylonians thought the cross meant. The cross is a symbol. It could mean one thing to one person and another thing to another person. That is the nature of symbols. I was never a Babylonian nor do I seek to be one now, so the way they used the cross is irrelevant to how I use it.

3. Idolatry is not the same thing as symbolism or the use of images in worship.

Date: 13th century 1 : the worship of a physical object as a god 2 : immoderate attachment or devotion to something

I neither worship the cross as a god, nor do have an "immoderate" attachment or devotion to it. Quite frankly, it's a symbol that wraps up a lot of my beliefs into one tidy package for contemplation and meditation. It's the finger pointing to the moon, not the moon.

I would say that many Christians, if they are guilty of idolatry, are far more guilty under definition #2- for having immoderate attachment to their church authoritative organization, to their country in the form of patriotism, and to their possessions in the form of consumerism and capitalism.

Not too many are really that immoderately devoted to the cross itself-- it is to their church organization that they are devoted.

The closest I get to breaking definition #2 is my devotion to my loved ones (family) and pets.

What are you immoderately attached or devoted to? The Bible says we should have none of that, save our attachment to God (and God is not a religious organization). I'm guessing the vast bulk of humans on earth struggle with immoderate attachment to something.

[Dogbrain]

Originally Posted by mee

Long before the Christian era, crosses were used by the ancient Babylonians

And long before the Christian era, Germanic languages were used by ancient pagans. Therefore, English, as a Germanic language should NOT BE USED BY CHRISTIANS, using this reasoning. Likewise, Bibles (like the KJV) in English are bad.

Mark 15:30; Luke 23:26) The word stau·ros´ refers to an upright pole, stake, or post.

I've got bad news to you. "Stavros" means "cross"--just ask any Greek--and this includes Greeks who are conversant in New Testament Greek.

so it seems that many who call them selves christians are also into idol worship.

Or it seems that others who call themselves Christians are also into the heresy of iconoclasm to a severe level.

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

1. I was never Jewish. So there is no reason that I should be under Jewish law. I follow Christ as a Gentile, but Christ never asked me to become a Jew or to give up my ancestors' ways, provided they were aligned with the Noahide Laws. Perhaps Jews are not supposed to have any images in worship, but this was not extended to everyone else on the planet. The Noahide Law only says that idolatry is forbidden.

2. I could care less what the Babylonians thought the cross meant. The cross is a symbol. It could mean one thing to one person and another thing to another person. That is the nature of symbols. I was never a Babylonian nor do I seek to be one now, so the way they used the cross is irrelevant to how I use it.

3. Idolatry is not the same thing as symbolism or the use of images in worship.



I neither worship the cross as a god, nor do have an "immoderate" attachment or devotion to it. Quite frankly, it's a symbol that wraps up a lot of my beliefs into one tidy package for contemplation and meditation. It's the finger pointing to the moon, not the moon.

I would say that many Christians, if they are guilty of idolatry, are far more guilty under definition #2- for having immoderate attachment to their church authoritative organization, to their country in the form of patriotism, and to their possessions in the form of consumerism and capitalism.

Not too many are really that immoderately devoted to the cross itself-- it is to their church organization that they are devoted.

The closest I get to breaking definition #2 is my devotion to my loved ones (family) and pets.

What are you immoderately attached or devoted to? The Bible says we should have none of that, save our attachment to God (and God is not a religious organization). I'm guessing the vast bulk of humans on earth struggle with immoderate attachment to something.

"In the Church, considered as a social organism, the mysteries inevitably degenerate into beliefs." Simone Weil

You wrote:

3. Idolatry is not the same thing as symbolism or the use of images in worship.

That is the essence of a particular misunderstanding. Worshipping a symbol is an expression of secular belief often used for manipulation. Using a symbol as a tool of contemplation is a willingness to admit ignorance and the heartfelt need to "understand."

Worshipping is not the same as contemplation

[greymare]

Originally Posted by Nick_A

With all due respect, usyally all this attitude does IMO is further misguided egotism and imaginary self importance which is what the teaching struggles against. Jesus didn't die to glorify our self importance but to allow us to experience our nothingness and profit from it with the help of the Spirit.

Sorry, i didnt make myself better understood, NickA. Its only very recently that I "got it". (that is an understanding of Christ). But now, to me, the cross is a reminder of something very important. And one day, if finances allow I shall buy a little cross and wear it around my neck to remind myself of His sacrifice for me and you and everyone else. Its got nothing to do with our own self importance, that is completely irrelevant to me, ( I amnot important in the greater scheme of things). But, i can be to others ( I hope). but I digress, I heard a preacher recently talk about people that we dont like, you know, criminals, etc, and people different from how we view ourselves, etc. I was sitting there listening to what he had to say but also critizising his manner , what he was wearing etc, (mybad). When he said, "well, Jesus died for these people as well". THAT is what struck me............That was my epiphany, i guess. Simple little statement, that I may have heard a thousand times before, but that day. WHAM. right in the back of the head. (LOL). So to me, the cross, is a reminder of that, my revelation, that i am indeed small but still he did that for me. Thats all I got tosay about that.........

[Radunzel]

Originally Posted by Only Special To God

I wear my cruicifix to remind me, that no matter how bad of a day I am having, that it will never be as bad as Jesus's last day on this earth!


God Bless,
Ian

I dunno being made into a messiah and being slaughtered when you didnt ask for either OR going back to god, both seem pretty bad altought i recon you wouldd favor one over the other)

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Radunzel

I dunno being made into a messiah and being slaughtered when you didnt ask for either OR going back to god, both seem pretty bad altought i recon you wouldd favor one over the other)

If you read what Jesus taught his followers, he knew exactly what lay ahead for him, way before it ever happened. In fact, he expressed his knowledge at the age of 12...

Ironic, the man knew what his 'career' would be before he entered puberty...how's that for far sightedness?

[Only Special To God]

Originally Posted by Radunzel

I dunno being made into a messiah and being slaughtered when you didnt ask for either OR going back to god, both seem pretty bad altought i recon you wouldd favor one over the other)

Hello Radunzel,

I do understand that you do not understand as to what I was trying to say.

I was trying to make a point as the beginning of the thread is about something that I would not rather put into words. However, please feel free to start at the beginning.

I thought that what I said was explanatory. The cross should be revered not put into tasteless art that does not give it justice.

God Bless,
Ian

[Only Special To God]

Originally Posted by Alex P

So at times he looked to the heavens for advice?... So as I said... Good example...

Alex,
I am a firm believer in that! I too when in doubt or often prayer....I looked to the heavens and then I bow my head knowing in my heart that he has heard me.

Ian

[Only Special To God]

Originally Posted by greymare

isnt it a symbol that jesus died for us, and a constant reminder. (of his sacrifice)????

I agree Greymare, that is why I wear it, to be constantly reminded of his sacrifice for me, as I know in my heart that there is not another person on this earth who would do that, just so that I could be saved.

Ian

[Nick_A]

Originally Posted by greymare

Sorry, i didnt make myself better understood, NickA. Its only very recently that I "got it". (that is an understanding of Christ). But now, to me, the cross is a reminder of something very important. And one day, if finances allow I shall buy a little cross and wear it around my neck to remind myself of His sacrifice for me and you and everyone else. Its got nothing to do with our own self importance, that is completely irrelevant to me, ( I amnot important in the greater scheme of things). But, i can be to others ( I hope). but I digress, I heard a preacher recently talk about people that we dont like, you know, criminals, etc, and people different from how we view ourselves, etc. I was sitting there listening to what he had to say but also critizising his manner , what he was wearing etc, (mybad). When he said, "well, Jesus died for these people as well". THAT is what struck me............That was my epiphany, i guess. Simple little statement, that I may have heard a thousand times before, but that day. WHAM. right in the back of the head. (LOL). So to me, the cross, is a reminder of that, my revelation, that i am indeed small but still he did that for me. Thats all I got tosay about that.........

Hi Greymare

I agree that it is good to remember what Christ did. I am suggesting that we can pervert it. There is an old Yiddish tale I am fond of that describes what I mean:

The Devil and an imp were on the street one day when they saw a man bend down and pick up a piece of the truth. The imp was terrified. He said to the Devil that now that the man has found a piece of the truth we will be discovered and all will be lost. The Devil smiled and looked at his imp friend telling him to calm down and not to worry. He said that even though the man did find a piece of the truth. we will help him organize it.

This is what happens in our psych. We take a sacred indication like the Cross and put it into the context of our ego needs and destroying its meaning in the process. The concept of Christ dying for us becomes a means for justifying precisely what we must sacrifice.

John 12

23Jesus replied, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. 25The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

IMO the cross must also remind us that we must carry it to acquire what Christianity offers. Yet do we really know what this means? Do we know either what this cross is that we must carry or how to carry it?

Yet if the cross is only used to remind us that Jesus died for us it is easy to avoid contemplation of this great question. Yet John 12: 23 is a profound passage and it refers to the necessity of carrying ones cross which begins with the simple admittance that we are unable to do so. This humility is necessary to receive help from above. All denial and inner lies just blocks any help. To carry our cross means first to admit our inner lies and hypocrisy and to begin to experience what we lose by accepting their dominance of our psych. Yet they are always there and waiting to regain their control so we must carry them and allow the spiritual light to dissipate them It is a very gradual process since it is hard to do but these initial attempts are a necessary beginning..

I agree with you that Jesus died for these people but the reason wasn't to justify them but to provide the means not to justify fears and imagination but to allow the Spirit to help one grow from the inner psychological foundation of the truth of ourselves: what we are, in relation to our spiritual/conscious potential.

The symbol of the cross suggest that the intersection between the horizontal and vertical lines can be raised along the vertical line and the quality of our being increases. At the same time it suggests Jesus sacrifice and how we must honor it and carry the cross in order to inwardly profit from it.

The very fact that it has been abused through ignorance doesn't IMO warrant it becoming an object of ridicule as it does with what misguided people call "art."

It is ironic that sustaining qualities of worth requires real effort and the destruction of quality only requires selfish stupidity.

"Who were the fools who spread the story that brute force cannot kill ideas? Nothing is easier. And once they are dead they are no more than corpses." Simone Weil

[greymare]

sorry, Nick, too me, that is thinking too hard on the subject.
I dont see why it has to be pulled apart and disected.
Maybe its just a personal thing?

[Dream]

Here are a couple of relevant snippets from Language and Myth by Erst Cassiner {Dover Publications 103 pages, printed 1953 transl. Susanne K. Langer}

Originally Posted by Book: Language and Myth

• (from page 7) For all mental processes fail to grasp reality itself, and in order to represent it, to hold it to all, they are driven to the use of symbols. But all symbolism harbors the curse of mediacy; it is bound to obscure what it seeks to reveal.
• (from page 9) If myth be really, as Max Müller's theory has it, nothing but the darkening shadow which language throws upon thought, it is mystifying indeed that this shadow should appear ever as an aura of its own light, should evolve a positive vitality and activity of its own, which tends to eclipse what we commonly call the immediate reality of things, so that even the wealth of empirical, sensuous experience pales before it. As Wilhelm von Hummboldt has said in connection with the language problem: "Man lives with his objects chiefly--in fact, since his feeling and acting depends on his perceptions, one may say exclusively--as language presents them to him. By the same process whereby he spins language out of his own being, he ensnares himself in it; and each language draws a magic circle round the people to which it belongs, a circle from which there is no escape save by stepping out of it into another."

[Thomas]

Today in the Catholic Lectionary the Gospel reading is from Matthew, the famous "Get thee behind me, Satan!" spoken to Peter.

It strikes at the heart of this discussion. The purpose of the Incarnation was the Salvation of man, the method was the Cross. From the moment Eve listened to that voice, the Cross was being erected on Golgotha.

Christ, in response to Peter's confession "You are the Christ, the son of the living God", begins to enlighten the disciples as to His fate, and makes preparation to go up to Jerusalem.

Peter takes Him aside, and argues against Him, thus earning his rebuke.

Peter's sin? He thought he knew better. He forgot He was a follower of Christ, not the leader.

If you can't look at the Cross, you can't look on Christ — You reduce Christianity to something nice, pleasant, warm and cuddly. The kind of Christianity that looks askance at one's neighbour in the pew.

Nice one, Greymare! That was a good epiphany.

Thomas

[Dream]

Here is probably the clearest reason for why Jesus was crucified which only requires checking a few references:

Jesus compared his being raised up on the cross to the raising up of the brass serpent on the pole a long time before him (story of Israel in the desert). By raising the serpent up on a pole, the serpent or what it represented, was being judged by God. Upon the cross the same was done to Jesus. That is the law of creatures put up on poles -- they are being held up for judgment. In Jesus' case, the judgment fell upon his flesh not the spirit of Christ within him (which is the word of life or the Way, spirit of wisdom etc.) Jesus told his disciples they must also take up crosses and follow him. Looking upon the cross means a Christian should see his or herself upon it, holding themselves up for judgment. It is not merely a looking, but a personal condemnation of the flesh through living as if they were spiritual beings. As the dying people in the desert were raised up by looking upon the serpent, so the men and women who condemn that which God also condemns are saved. To clarify and avoid complexity, this really should be seen according to Micah 6:8--> "It hath been told thee, O man, what is good, and what the LORD doth require of thee: only to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God."

Numbers 21:8 The poisonous serpent raised up
Deuteronomy 21:22 being raised up means Divine judgment
John 3:14 Jesus compares himself with the serpent that is raised up
Romans 8:3 explanation of condemnation of 'the flesh' through the cross
(extra: Genesis 3:13 serpent beguiles Eve | Genesis 4:7 Cain, sin, anger, serpent.)

Of course, some people will object that the serpent is satan, but satan is a concept illustrated best by these passages. It is the devil that was destroyed upon the cross (Hebrews 2:14) which was not resurrected with Jesus. To make the devil into more than an aspect of mankind is understandably interpreted by many as idolatry. People sometimes excuse themselve for their objectionable behavior by claiming the devil caused them to do something, and by doing so they look away from the cross and die of the serpent's poison by refusing to face and condemn it.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Dream

Here is probably the clearest reason for why Jesus was crucified which only requires checking a few references:

Jesus compared his being raised up on the cross to the raising up of the brass serpent on the pole a long time before him (story of Israel in the desert). By raising the serpent up on a pole, the serpent or what it represented, was being judged by God. Upon the cross the same was done to Jesus. That is the law of creatures put up on poles -- they are being held up for judgment. In Jesus' case, the judgment fell upon his flesh not the spirit of Christ within him (which is the word of life or the Way, spirit of wisdom etc.) Jesus told his disciples they must also take up crosses and follow him. Looking upon the cross means a Christian should see his or herself upon it, holding themselves up for judgment. It is not merely a looking, but a personal condemnation of the flesh through living as if they were spiritual beings. As the dying people in the desert were raised up by looking upon the serpent, so the men and women who condemn that which God also condemns are saved. To clarify and avoid complexity, this really should be seen according to Micah 6:8--> "It hath been told thee, O man, what is good, and what the LORD doth require of thee: only to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God."

Numbers 21:8 The poisonous serpent raised up
Deuteronomy 21:22 being raised up means Divine judgment
John 3:14 Jesus compares himself with the serpent that is raised up
Romans 8:3 explanation of condemnation of 'the flesh' through the cross

Of course, some people will object that the serpent is satan, but satan is a concept illustrated best by these passages. It is the devil that was destroyed upon the cross (Hebrews 2:14) which was not resurrected with Jesus. To make the devil into more than an aspect of mankind is understandably interpreted by many as idolatry. People sometimes excuse themselve for their objectionable behavior by claiming the devil caused them to do something, and by doing so they look away from the cross, which is to die of the serpent's poison by refusing to face and condemn it.

Rather complex, but true.

Or you could say "Jesus died for our sins", and then "rose to defeat death".

Which means, he took sin upon himself and suffered for it. Then he paid for and broke free from the consequences of sin (death), in order to show us all, that we could too. All we had to do, was/is, look to him for the way to do it.

Being coporial beings, we do have an advantage over the "devil"...we are so much stronger than he, but being the clever character that he is, he has an advantage over us, he can influeunce our thinking and emotions, powerfully.

Our "weakness" is our indecision.