The Concept of Surrender in Buddhism

[seattlegal]

I've noticed that karuna and metta are two of the four sublime states:

Oops! That would be the four Sublime Attitudes or Abodes of God, rather than the sublime states.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by InLove

Is "karma" simply the consequences of our actions?

Hi InLove,

Karma is volitional action and vipaka is its result. 2500 years ago in northern India, belief in notions such as karma and reincarnation were widespread; life was viewed as cyclical. In such a culture would the Buddha have been immersed. The teaching of the Buddha (including a different understanding of karma to that at the time, and the lack of an unchanging eternal soul) may therefore be seen from this POV as a heretical derivation of Hinduism. I think I’m just saying be aware of the “normal” beliefs in the society at the time. Buddhism is sometimes called Hinduism without the gods!

s.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

interesting discussion thus far.

the comparative discussion can be quite difficult if we are not mindful to remain within the frames of reference in the discussion, in my view.

the idea of surrender, per se, is based upon a distinctly non-Buddhist idea, namely, that there is a being which is surrendering and a being to which surrender is rendered. in a nutshell, the idea that there is some self which must surrender is a view which is predicated upon Atman whereas the Buddhist view is Anatman.

the outer form, so to speak, of Buddhist praxis does seem to be somewhat similiar to other forms of practice where beings may be worshipped or venerated. perhaps it is the case that some Buddhists share this view as well. that said, when we have a clear understanding of the exposition of Anatman from the Buddhist view it becomes clear that the praxis is really quite different in its content.

the idea of surrender also connotes a rather fatalistic view in that it seems to imply that we cannot or are not the heirs of our karma and, due to our own intentional actions, thoughts and deeds, the creators of our future. we can, at this moment, engage in practice which will mitigate and, in some cases, eliminate, the negative vipaka (fruit) of our karma.

there are many techniques for working with and breaking through the ego. each being needs to discover what that is for themselves, in my view, and thus there are many methods which are taught throughout the Buddhist paradigm, though they all have the same outcome when they are culminated.

metta,

~v

[Francis king]

time n time n time again, I've told ya once, I'm not tellin ya again... ten points to anyone who knows the song...lol...

karma is just one small part of existence, and whether ur happy/comfortable with that existence, karma is just one part of 12 parts which make "existence"... the 12 parts can be found in the rice seedling sutra, and is sometimes known as- pratityasamutpada, aka the chain of causation... regardless- karma is a composite of two root or "pada" words, ka-, doing, acting, and ma-, making or measuring... so, ur karma, basically, is the product of ur consciousness, the result of ur actions and judgements, and so if u are making "bad karma" (making bad judgements, or doing the bad actions), then dont be suprised if ur in "samsara's ocean" of misery, as its sam- (complete(ly) sa (your own, ones own) ra (desire(s)...

[Francis king]

earl, sorry to be so ignorant of ur post... yes, amidism or pure land buddhism , or the pure land sect does state that u need to learn nothing but chant the name of amida or amitabha and u will be born in a pure land (amida will look after u, etc)

namo amida butsu! lol

or, namah amitabha svaha...

cheers earl

[Francis king]

anatman, no/without self ?

[Francis king]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Oops! That would be the four Sublime Attitudes or Abodes of God, rather than the sublime states.

I've heard the four immeasurables be called the sublime states too....

[Francis king]

lol, seattle, just done the link for st johns order... wish some of the fundies could see it...

[Francis king]

yes, I'm all over the place but- vajradhara- ur right-

the outer form, so to speak, of Buddhist praxis does seem to be somewhat similiar to other forms of practice where beings may be worshipped or venerated

but this, to my mind at least, is the same unfortunate occurance of all long established religions- (i.e., man becomes god, and his accomplishments become harder and harder for us mortals to attain as the years roll by) but this wasn't taught by the buddha... or so I have heard...

btw, all those who follow these buddhist type threads, susma said in another post that they were gonna start a thread on doctrine/semantics, etc, and I think I'd mentioned it b4 independently of this and vajradhara had said s/he would start one up, so, lets hope susma/vajradhara does the buisness...

gate gate paragate parasamgate bodhi svaha

[samabudhi]

So, would "karuna" be love with the intention to set things right, while "metta" would be love with the intention that things continue along in their rightful manner?

All Buddhist doctrine has it's roots in the Four Noble Truths, the fundamental exposition of the nature of samsara; its arising; its cessation; and the path that leads to that cessation. That nature is suffering.
The antidote to any suffering is compassion. So that's Karuna in a nutshell.
Compassion is not just an intention though. For enlightened beings, it is the nature of their action, of their intention, and of their view - or we would say, body speech and mind. So not just intention.

Maybe example - Someone loses their house in a fire. You have compassion for them and want to relieve their suffering because you empathise. You have an idea of what that would be like, and you feel compelled to help, as you would like to be helped.
So you've heard Buddhism is a path. Then compassion is the nature of that path, because that's all that Buddhism is - a path to end suffering. If you help others to be free from suffering, then you also have empathy for yourself. 'How can I let myself suffer like this? This is not right, I must do something.' Compassion becomes your path, you stop ignoring yourself and find out what it is you really need to be happy. What you need is the same as what others need. So compassion is the most important.

Here's a translation of a Tibetan stanza on the four immeasurables

May all beings have happiness and the causes of happiness
May all beings be free from suffering and the causes of suffering
May all beings never be separated from the happiness that knows no suffering
May all being abide in equanimity, free from attachment and anger that holds some close and others distant


Metta is the first, giving happiness to others
And karuna is next, taking suffering from others
Then mudita, sharing in the happiness of others (like not being jealous of other's happiness or overly involved in your own suffering)
And upeksa, not being swayed by circumstances of others, such as not being appreciated when you are kind, or being taken advantage of when you help. This is the unattached emphasis, so you don't get pulled back into the swamp of samsara when you try to help others.

The four immeasurables balance each other like this. They're simple, but simple meditations are often the most profound.

[InLove]

Namaste All (I have always liked that greeting, and I feel particularly free to employ it here.)

I just wanted to stop back in and say "thank you" again for the information, thoughts, and questions that are being provided here on this thread. I am reading....studying.....learning.

InPeace,
InLove

[17th Angel]

Is there truly surrender in buddhism though? I don't think there can be...

Going back to my loved Samurai.... Surrender isn't an option, surrender is lack of discipline and dis-honorable to your clan.... *thought just stuck 17th... light bulb flickers...*Oh... But then to carry on going and going when you are just, wasting time and nothing shall come of it is to be shameful to the clan you represent and seen also as dishonor... So I guess there must be somewhere in the middle some kind of surrender... but not that word... Surrender (the word) strikes me as a cowardly word. Ugh forget it... Ignore me.