The Collapsing Universe and The New Heaven and New Earth

[Dondi]

I debated whether or not to put this in the Science and the Universe section, but considering the metaphysical aspects of these ideas, I felt it gardner better responses in a spiritual forum. I would open this to anyone who might have insight on the subject who would have either scientific or spiritual perspectives on this, even from other faiths.

After reading several articles on the notion that the universe is headed for a “big crunch” in about 10-20 billion years, I began to contemplate whether this could be a prelude to a “new heaven and new earth” mentioned in such scriptures as Isaiah 65 & 66, Revelation 21, and 2 Peter 3.

Specifically, the 2 Peter 3 passage speaks of the very elements burning up:

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” – II Peter

I suppose the “new heavens and new earth” this could mean the immediate heavens composing of the earth and surrounding atmosphere, but since the Kingdom of God is supposed to last for eternity, the problem I have is that if scientists are right, we don’t have eternity in this universe, but the aforementioned 10-20 billions years, which would seem like an eternity to us finite beings.
Romans 8:22-23 tells us: “For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.”

If we are to believe that what happened in the Garden of Eden put a curse in all of creation, then the whole of creation is affected. And likening it to a body, it has to die in order to be reborn.
Jesus said in John 12:24, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.”
Scientists are in awe at how fine tuned the universe seems, yet it is not perfectly tuned. Might I suggest that God just might decide to start over with a “big crunch” and reset the universe in perfect tune to ideal conditions that would last for eternity, effectively allowing the universe to die and then be reborn?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Dondi

I debated whether or not to put this in the Science and the Universe section, but considering the metaphysical aspects of these ideas, I felt it gardner better responses in a spiritual forum. I would open this to anyone who might have insight on the subject who would have either scientific or spiritual perspectives on this, even from other faiths.

After reading several articles on the notion that the universe is headed for a “big crunch” in about 10-20 billion years, I began to contemplate whether this could be a prelude to a “new heaven and new earth” mentioned in such scriptures as Isaiah 65 & 66, Revelation 21, and 2 Peter 3.

Specifically, the 2 Peter 3 passage speaks of the very elements burning up:

“But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” – II Peter

I suppose the “new heavens and new earth” this could mean the immediate heavens composing of the earth and surrounding atmosphere, but since the Kingdom of God is supposed to last for eternity, the problem I have is that if scientists are right, we don’t have eternity in this universe, but the aforementioned 10-20 billions years, which would seem like an eternity to us finite beings.
Romans 8:22-23 tells us: “For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.”

If we are to believe that what happened in the Garden of Eden put a curse in all of creation, then the whole of creation is affected. And likening it to a body, it has to die in order to be reborn.
Jesus said in John 12:24, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.”
Scientists are in awe at how fine tuned the universe seems, yet it is not perfectly tuned. Might I suggest that God just might decide to start over with a “big crunch” and reset the universe in perfect tune to ideal conditions that would last for eternity, effectively allowing the universe to die and then be reborn?

Since you are using scripture as part of your "scientific references"...Science and Universe is where this belongs.

[Dondi]

Very well. Thanks for moving it, Q.

[Tao_Equus]

From my understanding the case for a 'big crunch' has as yet no compelling evidence to suport it. Mass and velocity measurements, to the best of my knowledge, seem to suggest that there is not enough mass to halt the expansion.

[flowperson]

Hi Dondi:

While it is always tempting to equate Bible knowledge with scientific principles, it rarely works well, even though I've been known to do it as you well know.

In this case there may indeed be a big crunch someday in the far future, but today's cosmologists say that this is highly unlikely unless dark matter and dark energy lose their seeming power to force the visible contents of the universe to repel each other and fly farther and farther apart. Keep in mind that the universe is approximately 5% visible or light matter and energies, and 95% dark matter and energies. But then again, cosmologists would be the first to admit that they simply don't know enough about it all to make theses sorts of speculations.

Most physicists and cosmologists do however believe that further insights into the relationships between mass, gravity, and electromagnetic force will yield new understandings , and probably, new mysteries about it all. The new collider at CERN should help to push knowledge somewhat further in this regard.

flow....

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Hi Dondi:

While it is always tempting to equate Bible knowledge with scientific principles, it rarely works well, even though I've been known to do it as you well know.

In this case there may indeed be a big crunch someday in the far future, but today's cosmologists say that this is highly unlikely unless dark matter and dark energy lose their seeming power to force the visible contents of the universe to repel each other and fly farther and farther apart. Keep in mind that the universe is approximately 5% visible or light matter and energies, and 95% dark matter and energies. But then again, cosmologists would be the first to admit that they simply don't know enough about it all to make theses sorts of speculations.

Most physicists and cosmologists do however believe that further insights into the relationships between mass, gravity, and electromagnetic force will yield new understandings , and probably, new mysteries about it all. The new collider at CERN should help to push knowledge somewhat further in this regard.

flow....

It don't take much light to get rid of the dark...(lights a candle in an auditorium)...

[AndrewX]

Big "Bang," Big "Crunch" - one Great Breath, outward, then in ...

And God lives how long?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Big "Bang," Big "Crunch" - one Great Breath, outward, then in ...

And God lives how long?

...jury's still deliberating on that...

[Dondi]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Hi Dondi:

While it is always tempting to equate Bible knowledge with scientific principles, it rarely works well, even though I've been known to do it as you well know.

In this case there may indeed be a big crunch someday in the far future, but today's cosmologists say that this is highly unlikely unless dark matter and dark energy lose their seeming power to force the visible contents of the universe to repel each other and fly farther and farther apart. Keep in mind that the universe is approximately 5% visible or light matter and energies, and 95% dark matter and energies. But then again, cosmologists would be the first to admit that they simply don't know enough about it all to make theses sorts of speculations.

Most physicists and cosmologists do however believe that further insights into the relationships between mass, gravity, and electromagnetic force will yield new understandings , and probably, new mysteries about it all. The new collider at CERN should help to push knowledge somewhat further in this regard.

flow....

This is kinda why I started this in the Christian Forums. True, I am embellishing here in a wild thought.

What I am think here is that if the universe will continue to expand, then eventually all matter in the universe will break apart into atomic dust and float away forever. There will be no more stars, galaxies, or planets to support life. Quite depressing when you think about it. However, at least in the universe collapses on itself, then it can start over new again, a rebirth, providing the initial parameters are met to fine tune the universe to support the formation of galaxies, stars, and planets that support life. Perhaps the equillibrium will be as such that the new universe will expand to a certain point and stabilize. Still, though, stars will still go through cycles of birth and death, so again nothing lasts forever.

[17th Angel]

Originally Posted by Dondi

IAfter reading several articles on the notion that the universe is headed for a “big crunch” in about 10-20 billion years, I began to contemplate whether this could be a prelude to a “new heaven and new earth” mentioned in such scriptures as Isaiah 65 & 66, Revelation 21, and 2 Peter 3.

Oh no!! In 10 or 20 billion years!? What will I do!! *gets worried* lol..... It's like that incoming comet! A COMET IS COMING IT WILL DESTROY THIS WORLD!! Oh no fear!! How long have I got?! Can I go to the school kiss my kids? Can I spend one more night with my wife? At least a candle lit dinner with her watching the sun set? Can I call all I have hurt and say sorry? How long have I got man?

Around 5... billion years..

*slap*

Who cares lol..... If I could wager... I'd put anything on human existance not lasting that long from self destruction... We don't need "outsiders" to finish us off... We got the goods to do it ourselves.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Dondi

However, at least in the universe collapses on itself, then it can start over new again, a rebirth, providing the initial parameters are met to fine tune the universe to support the formation of galaxies, stars, and planets that support life. Perhaps the equillibrium will be as such that the new universe will expand to a certain point and stabilize. Still, though, stars will still go through cycles of birth and death, so again nothing lasts forever.

Well I could be wrong but I think this might be a description of Buddhist cosmology: eternal cycles of expansion/evolution and contraction/decay. But as the Buddha said, such conjecture only leads to vexation and madness!

s.

[Dondi]

Are you calling me MAD???!!

TRUE! --nervous --very, very dreadfully nervous I had been and am; but why will you say that I am mad?

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Dondi

Are you calling me MAD???!!

TRUE! --nervous --very, very dreadfully nervous I had been and am; but why will you say that I am mad?

Only in light of what was posted on the thread you started about the Buddhist "thinking" on the origins of the universe!

s.

[Dondi]

Indeed. Even Edgar Allen would approve.

[Snoopy]

Now you're messing with MY mind.


s.