The Christian Trinity

[Amulek]

I would first like to state that though I consider myself a Christian, I do not believe in the traditional Trinity as is believed by the Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox. I am LDS (Mormon), and I believe that God the Father, his Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three separate and individual beings.

I respect all people's faiths and believe that the world would be a lot better if there was more religious toleration. I did not mean this to insult or disrespect another religion, faith, sect, or church. Please forgive me if it appears I have done so.

Before the First Council of Niceae, the Christian churches were very diverse about their beliefs concerning the Godhead. Catholicism maintained that the Three were all one divine being. Other popular churches, particularly Arianism, Sabellianism, etc., had a belief that all Three were distinct beings.

One of the principal reasons the First Council of Niceae was called was to end this conflict among the early Christian churches. In the end, Constatine, though he was not at a Christian at the time, decided the official belief would be that they were all One Being, and over the next three hundred years the Arians were converted to Catholicism.

By the year A.D. 700, the principal Christian belief was that God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit were different personifications of One Being, because of a descision made ove three hundred years earlier by a non-Christian to help unite his people.

If Jesus was God Incarnate, who was He praying to in the Grove? Himself? If Jesus was God the Father, why did He say to Mary not to touch Him, for He had not yet ascended to His Father.

There are many scriptures in the Bible in which Christ states that He and the Father are one. These are often used out of context.

And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. - John 17:11

In this scripture, if They are the same, then why is Jesus speaking to His Father? It sounds to me as if He is saying that they are one in purpose. If he means literally one being, then does that mean all men should fuse togethor and become one being as well?

[Bandit]

Well Amulek, you have come to the right place to discuss it & welcome aboard
I see two, & never did see three, but a lot of people do. Some only see one entity.
I also dont fall into Arianism or any of the categories you mentioned which pretty much makes me a heretic by every denomination ever started throughout the world.

I think it is a big mystery. Deeper than we realize.
I see a Father & a Son communicating & dwelling together as one. I do not see a third person in this.

Just remember there are many ways to see it, but do they work all the way through when we really dig into it? & maybe God did it this way on purpose to keep us coming back to His Word for understanding?
I always say, to better understand God, we have to stop looking at God and focus on Jesus, because we can see him.

I think you will find some nice people here to discuss it with you.
The Lord bless you as you seek His infite wisdom, through our Lord Jesus Christ.

[mynameisstephen]

Although the word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible, the elements of this doctrine are all taken directly from God’s Word. The doctrine of the Trinity states that there is one God who exists eternally as three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Bible could not be more explicit that there is only one God, which it declares about two dozen times. In Isaiah 45:5 God says, "I am the L

ORD, and there is no other; besides me there is no God." In Mark 12:29 Jesus states, "The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The LORD our God is one Lord . . .’" Jesus referred to God as His Father, and the apostles frequently spoke of "God the Father." But the New Testament also insists that Jesus is God. For example, Thomas acknowledged Jesus as "my Lord and my God" (John 20:28), and both Peter and Paul spoke of Jesus as "our God and Savior" (2 Peter 1:1; Titus 2:13). Yet the New Testament also makes the distinction between the Father and the Son as two very different persons. In fact, they tell us that they love one another, speak to each other, and seek to glorifyeach other (e.g., John 17:1–26).

The Old Testament refers often to the Holy Spirit as God at work in the world, without distinction from the Father. But Jesus in John 14—16 explained that the Father at Christ’s request would send this Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit would teach and guide the disciples, not speaking on His own initiative, but speaking on Christ’s behalf and glorifying Christ. Thus, the Holy Spirit is revealed by Christ to be a third person distinct from the Father and from the Son. The three persons of the Trinity—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—are distinct persons, yet they are all the one God. They are in absolute perfect harmony consisting of one substance. They are coeternal, coequal, and copowerful. If any one of the three were removed, there would be no God. There is, though, an apparent separation of some functions among the members of the Godhead. For example, the Father chooses those in Christ to be saved (Ephesians 1:4); the Son redeems them (Ephesians 1:7); and the Holy Spirit seals them (Ephesians 1:13).

A further point of clarification is that God is not one person, the Father, with Jesus as a created being and the Holy Spirit as a force (Jehovah’s Witnesses). Neither is He one person who took three consecutive forms, i.e., the Father became the Son, who became the Holy Spirit. Nor is God the divine nature of the Son, where Jesus had a human nature perceived as the Son and a divine nature perceived as the Father (United Pentecostal). Nor is the Trinity an office held by three separate Gods (Mormonism). It has been interestingly said, "If you try to figure out the Trinity, you will lose your mind; if you deny the Trinity, you will lose your soul." In short, the doctrine of the Trinity is completely biblical, and it is essential that all Christians give assent to this doctrine.

The Trinity at Work in Redemption

In every major phase of the redemption, each person of the Godhead is directly involved. Their involvement in each successive phase can be seen in the following:

1.

Incarnation. The Father incarnated the Son in the womb of Mary by the Holy Spirit (see Luke 1:35).

2.

Baptism in the Jordan River. The Spirit descended on the Son, and the Father spoke His approval from heaven (see Matthew 3:14–17).

3.

Public ministry. The Father anointed the Son with the Spirit (see Acts 10:38).

4.

The crucifixion. Jesus offered Himself to the Father through the Spirit (see Hebrews 9:14).

5.

The resurrection. The Father resurrected the Son by the Spirit (see Acts 2:32; Romans 1:4).

6.

Pentecost. From the Father the Son received the Spirit, whom He then poured out on His disciples (see Acts 2:33).

1) Who gives us words to speak?

Father

—Matthew 10:19,20: "But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what you shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what you shall speak. For it is not you that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaks in you."

Holy Spirit

—Mark 13:11: "But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what you shall speak, neither premeditate:but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak: for it is not you that speak, but the Holy Spirit."

Son

—Luke 21:14,15: "Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what you shall answer: For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist."

2) Who gave the New Covenant?

Father

—Jeremiah 31:33,34: "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; after those days, says the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Holy Spirit

—Hebrews 10:15–17: "Whereof the Holy Spirit also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, said the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more."

Son

—Hebrews 12:24: "And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant . . ."

3) Who is our helper?

Father

—Hebrews 13:6: "So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do to me."

Holy Spirit—Romans 8:26: "Likewise the Spirit also helps our infirmities."

Son

—Hebrews 4:16: "Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me."

4) Who comforts us?

Father

—2 Corinthians 1:3,4: "Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort; who comforts us in all our tribulation . . ."

Holy Spirit

—Acts 9:31: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria, and were edified; and walking in the fear of the Lord, and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, were multiplied."

Son

—2 Corinthians 1:5: "For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also abounds by Christ."

5) Who gives us peace?

Father

—1 Corinthians 14:33: "For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints."

Holy Spirit

—Galatians 5:22: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith . . ."

Son

—John 14:27: "Peace I leave with you, my peace I give to you: not as the world gives, give I to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid."

6) Who sends out Christians?

Father

—Matthew 9:38: "Pray therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth laborers into his harvest."

Holy Spirit

—Acts 13:4: "So they, being sent forth by the Holy Spirit, departed to Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus."

Son—Matthew 10:16: "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves."

7) Who calls Christians to ministry?

Father

—1 Corinthians 1:1: "Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God. . ."

Holy Spirit

—Acts13:2: "As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them."

Son

—Romans 1:6: "Among whom are you also the called of Jesus Christ."

[smkolins]

Originally Posted by Amulek

If Jesus was God Incarnate, who was He praying to in the Grove? Himself? If Jesus was God the Father, why did He say to Mary not to touch Him, for He had not yet ascended to His Father.

There are many scriptures in the Bible in which Christ states that He and the Father are one. These are often used out of context.

And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. - John 17:11

In this scripture, if They are the same, then why is Jesus speaking to His Father? It sounds to me as if He is saying that they are one in purpose. If he means literally one being, then does that mean all men should fuse togethor and become one being as well?

The traditional positions on this question are that Jesus is God Incarnate, and that Jesus is a man like the rest of us who was chosen by God, knowing his obedience.

I suggest a third alternative. Jesus is a special Man, unlike the body of humanity, who while coming to us through a body, was really from God, whole and complete but like all things in this world, well, in this world. However He is in the position and condition of a perfect mirror, turned to the Source of Divine Light. Look at a perfect mirror, and one witnesses the true Light. If that Light spoke, it's voice would echo out of the mirror. If one mistook the Light for the mirror (who sees me sees the father) one would mistake what the mirror cannot (only the father is good.)

But Jesus, in being the perfect mirror of God for humanity, is not limited to mearly the potentialities of humanity. While we can pray, he was prayer. While we can understand, he understood. While we strive to be better, he was best. While we live and die in order to get to the next world, in truth he lives, and dies not, for his spirit is always and remains there. While we can forgive and have compassion, he was forgiveness and knows our needs because we are who we are and he is that he is, a mirror for us of what is entirely beyond us, so that God, who is closer to us than our life's vein, may be known to us, so we are not heedless, so we are not wandering, lost ot our selves, while God continues to rain down on us all we need, that we may not hoard the water bestowed, but dance in it.

[Quahom1]

What does one get when a Mormon, a Catholic, a Baptist, an Anglican, and a Ba'hai come together to discuss God?


Lots' of questions...
v/r

Q

[Faithfulservant]

Its simple to me and I dont see how people cannot see it when its clearly in the bible... Who but God is worthy of worship?? Yet Jesus was worshipped and accepted worship.. Even to those that say that He did not receive the indwelling of the Father until the transfiguration.. He was worshipped while He was still in the manger..as a baby.

I find if very interesting that someone can say that "Me and My Father are one" is taken out of context.. or that there are three witnesses in heaven the Father the Word and The Spirit and the three agree as One.. Or in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Or Jesus saying "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You BEFORE the world was." .

[mee]

.Trinity: Is Jehovah a Trinity—three persons in one God? No! Jehovah, the Father, is "the only true God." (John 17:3; Mark 12:29) Jesus is His firstborn Son, and he is subject to God. (1 Corinthians 11:3) The Father is greater than the Son. (John 14:28) The holy spirit is not a person; it is God's active force.—Genesis 1:2; Acts 2:18.

[Chalice]

Hi Amulek, the Mormon. I am Lady Chalice, and was an investigator of the LDS church. Maybe you will understand why I could not join after my comments.

Originally Posted by Amulek

I would first like to state that though I consider myself a Christian, I do not believe in the traditional Trinity as is believed by the Catholics, Protestants, and Orthodox. I am LDS (Mormon), and I believe that God the Father, his Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three separate and individual beings. I was faced with this teaching from the LDS Church and really had a very difficult time "feeling" it. I know that is not logical, but I could not join until resolving this question.



I respect all people's faiths and believe that the world would be a lot better if there was more religious toleration. I did not mean this to insult or disrespect another religion, faith, sect, or church. Please forgive me if it appears I have done so. no insult taken.

Before the First Council of Niceae, the Christian churches were very diverse about their beliefs concerning the Godhead. Catholicism maintained that the Three were all one divine being. Other popular churches, particularly Arianism, Sabellianism, etc., had a belief that all Three were distinct beings. While this is true, my question remains, "what did Jesus and his Jewish community believe?" The answer to this is complete Monotheism. Jews were never allowed to believe that God had a co-equal God working with him. This is what distinguished Judaism from all other faiths - that there were no other Gods. In Isaiah 44:6 God himself states that "I am the First, and I am the Last, besides me there is NO OTHER." This means that if Jesus was created by God to be a co-equal God at some point prior to this writing, God would have certainly acknowledged this to Isaiah. There are several other verses that state the same thing. Secondly, in Exodus 3:13, Moses asks Eloheme (God the Father) what is name is, that he might tell the Hebrews what God they were going to follow from then on. Eloheme tells Moses that his name is "Jehovah" or YHWH, and it is usually rendered in KJV as "I AM THAT I AM", which means self existant, uncreated, and salvation. If you look up the word God for that very verse in Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, you will find that the word "God" translates as Eloheme and not Jehovah. In Hebrew it is very, very clear that Eloheme tells mosees that his name is Jehovah. Most of Christendom recognizes, as do the LDS Christians, that Jehovah is the pre-incarnate Christ. What Eloheme is telling Moses is that he is both Eloheme AND Jehovah/pre-incarnate Christ. Add to this the fact that every time you see the phrase "the Lord our God", "The Lord God", "The Lord your God" and so forth, whether it be in the BoM, the Bible, D&C and so forth, you get the same translation as in Exodus 3:13, for the word "Lord" translates as YHWH, and the word "God" translates from Eloheme. Therefore the phrase "the Lord God" literally means "Jehovah, (who is) Eloheme". You can further compare Christ's miracles to those of Jehovah and recognize that each did the same types of miracles - hence the same deity. Further support FOR the Trinity is found in the BoM itself: Alma 11:26-39 confirm a very Trinitarian viewpoint: "And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God? And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God. Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? And he answered, NO. ... Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father? And amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the BEGINNING AND THE END, THE FIRST AND THE LAST;" There is no doubt that this quote directly matches up with Isaiah 44:6 where Eloheme/God, the Eternal Father IS the first and the last, the beginning and the end, and "besides me there is no God." That pretty much puts Christ out of the picture as a "separate" deity. He either IS God, as Exodus 3:13 states, or he isn't God at all, which is what the Muslim faith contends. By the way, Islam is a very extreem view of Arianism, which you mentioned. Arianism pre-dates Catholicism to be sure, and the prophet Muhammed hung on to the tale end of it and made it Muslim doctrine as belief in it was phasing out and the Catholic church was spreading. To resurrect this thread of early christianity is to invoke parallel beliefs with early Islam, which by the way has a parallel spiritual history with Mormonism - a prophet is called of God, visits a private natural setting, ( a cave or a grove), receives an angelic visitation which prompts the writing of new scripture to correct the old, defunct, error-ridden scriptures, new rules are laid out that were formerly canceled in the old religion, and an entirely new faith develops based on the new writing. Christ remains, but his position changes somewhat, either to a prophet, or a lesser being beneath God, and his ability to forgive sin is removed or diminished. This is why in Mormonism, some sins can not be forgiven and blood atonement is required, hence the blood atonement doctrine that was used by the Danites, and why only Utah has the execution of criminals done by Gunshot and not injection - their blood must be drawn to atone for their own sins, because Christ can not atone for "some" sins. This is not traditional Christianity by any means, because in Traditional Christianity, Christ's cross aquitted ALL sin, period. Three distinct and separate beings may have been part of Arian Christianity, but they were not part of Jewish Christianity, the kind Jesus taught and walked among the Jewish nation with. Jesus taught only ONE God, just like Moses did. Judaism was established as a means for getting RID of the idea of more than one God. And because of Exodus 3:13, this idea can continue, by knowing that Eloheme and Jehovah and Jesus are all the same being, with the Holy Spirit - three in one. The other thing that does not make sense to me in regard to Mormonism is that when Joseph Smith received his first vision, a pillar of light came out of the heavens and surrounded him - SURROUNDED him. He was inside this ONE PILLAR of light and therefore he was able to see 2 of the three aspects of deity even though they were ensconsed as ONE being, ONE pillar of light. Although the beautiful picture/stained glass window of Joseph's first vision shows him viewing the Father and the Son separately, it is not accurate, read the first vision scripture carefully - he was actually INSIDE that ONE PILLAR of light - this was the same pillar of light that led the hebrews through the red sea - it was "three in one", only the hebrews did not know this, but Jos. Smith was inside this light pillare and that was his own experience. He was inside the one, and therefore could experience the three, two visible, and one through feeling. Of course that would have been hard to describe. AS far as I am concerned the BoM and Jos. Smith's first vision SUPPORT the Trinity, and possibly the "Seven Fold Spirit of God" mentioned in the OT, they do not deny it at all.


One of the principal reasons the First Council of Niceae was called was to end this conflict among the early Christian churches. In the end, Constatine, though he was not at a Christian at the time, decided the official belief would be that they were all One Being, and over the next three hundred years the Arians were converted to Catholicism. This statement is also true, but why go with Arianism? There was obviously something prior to that as far as Christianity went. You know who coverted to Arian Christianity? The pagan Germans. They converted from a huge pantheon, and their God, Odin, was crucified on a tree, and returned from death with the runes, or holy writ. Of course the Germans were going to understand the Godhead as separate - that is what they already believed, and so this was an easy conversion. But as they studied, they recognized the error and went with catholicism. If Arianism had spoken to them in any way, why did they let it go? The answer is that Judaism is the basis for early christianity, the EARLIEST christianity, and one can simply not deny that severe monotheism is a must for the basis of Christianity. When more than one deity exists, we go right back to poly-theism, and knock out the entire reason that God removed Moses from Egypt to begin with. God would not do that. He does not change.

By the year A.D. 700, the principal Christian belief was that God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit were different personifications of One Being, because of a descision made ove three hundred years earlier by a non-Christian to help unite his people.

If Jesus was God Incarnate, who was He praying to in the Grove? Himself? If Jesus was God the Father, why did He say to Mary not to touch Him, for He had not yet ascended to His Father. I would like you to pause and do an experiment here. First, locate your brain - you know where that is don't you? Now locate your spinal cord, the stem coming off your brain. Now locate your nerves, you have nerves in your fingers and your toes, arms and legs, tongue, eyes and so on. The brain, spinal cord and nerves are all scientifically SEPARATE systems. They can be disconnected, studied and treated differently. They have different diseases, right? They are separate organs. However, they are all ONE ORGANIZED SYSTEM AND THEY CAN NOT FUNCTION AT ALL IF THEY ARE IN ANY WAY DISCONNECTED. ok? now, pinch your finger, and pinch it hard. Did you feel that? Your nerve, spinal cord and Brain all picked up the message at the same time. Jesus is the "nerve" - the part of the system that interacts with the world and sends messages to the "headquarters". The spine delivers the message, and would make a good icon for the "holy spirit", who "delivers our prayers with groaning". The Brain is Headquarters and receives the messages, interprets them and sends messages and help back, makes decisions and so forth. Just because Jesus was on earth as God does not mean that "all of God" left heaven, just a part of God left heaven, for a human body would not accomodate something like God. That is why the OT scriptures state that the earth is God's FOOTSTOOL - only a part of God can dwell on earth, not all. Just like a nerve sends info to the brain through the spine, so Jesus sends God info through the Holy Spirit. the natural world is a beautiful picture of the divine, isnt it? Further, the NT states that Jesus is in the "IMAGE" of the Father - he is an image, a reflection, like a mirror. And just like a mirror reflects light and there are not 2 objects but one object and one light-reflection, so God is the "real" entity, and the natural world is just a reflection of that, including Jesus, who is God's reflection. The moon reflects the sun's light, a mirror reflects objects and Jesus' body reflects God's spirit. Go and stand in front of a mirror right now. Is there now two of you? No there is not. There is one you, and onereflection (or several, depending on how many mirrors you are using). How about this web sight? I have made ONE post. But millions of computers may reflect my words. Does this make many of me? I don't think so, yet there are many reflections of my mind and thoughts. If the natural world can show how easy it is for one to be many at the same time, why does it baffle you that God could not do the same thing? It says God is both the east and the west, meaning that God can do the impossible. If that is true, then God can be in many places at one time, even if it because he only puts a small part of himself at different places. The trinity is easy to understand, but trying to understand how a God who claims there is "no other Gods" will turn around and defeat that teaching, that makes no sense at all. Either God lies, or he does not know what he said in the past, or he changed things after saying he would not - none of that makes sense to me at all. But the natural world's ability to show me how interactive systems and natural reflections can display more than one IMAGE of the divine, and interact with mankind on many levels - that makes perfect sense.

There are many scriptures in the Bible in which Christ states that He and the Father are one. These are often used out of context.

And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. - John 17:11

In this scripture, if They are the same, then why is Jesus speaking to His Father? It sounds to me as if He is saying that they are one in purpose. If he means literally one being, then does that mean all men should fuse togethor and become one being as well? Yes, God and Jesus ARE one in purpose, but that is only the beginning of their Unity. They are also one in being, as Exodus 3:13 tells us, and as Isaiah 44:6 tells us. Do you have children? Do you realize that in that genetic code of your child resides your genetic code and the code of your spouse? Two have become one, not just in purpose, but in being. Yes the natural world will support the Trinity. The BoM also supports it. But for some reason, the LDS Church will not, and I do not understand that. I also do not understand why the LDS Church will not support research from their own 5th Generation LDS Geneticist, who worked fervently at BYU for many years to try and see if any American Indian population living anywhere between the arctic and ant-arctic had ANY Semetic genes, and found that none did, at any time frame. He said it was easy to go back to the BoM period, and geneticists do that all the time, and go back even further. The people in the BoM are Asian, not Semites. there is absolutely NO genetic strands to support the BoM assessment that a semitic group came over and lived the BoM story out. It is not logical to believe that they were, and it is also not a matter of faith, for faith would never ask you to believe something that is not actual.
At any rate, this "trinity" problem is what caused me to stop in my tracks and NOT join the LDS Church, no matter how much good it has done over the years, etc. This doctrine fails to show any understanding of Hebrew, greek, or the ancient religion from which the trinity doctrine was derived. That is why I personally could not join. I hope this does not hurt your feelings, as it is not intended to, it is simply and educated explanation of why people do not join up with mormonism. I hope this gives you something to ponder, and know that I respect and like LDS people and the church overall very much.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

.Trinity: Is Jehovah a Trinity—three persons in one God? No! Jehovah, the Father, is "the only true God." (John 17:3; Mark 12:29) Jesus is His firstborn Son, and he is subject to God. (1 Corinthians 11:3) The Father is greater than the Son. (John 14:28) The holy spirit is not a person; it is God's active force.—Genesis 1:2; Acts 2:18.

Sorry mee, but there is overwhelming scripture as noted by mynameisstephen, to argue for the Trinity being three distinct beings in one Godhead. That is to say that the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

I'm afraid one saying it isn't so, doesn't not make it so.

v/r

Q

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Sorry mee, but there is overwhelming scripture as noted by mynameisstephen, to argue for the Trinity being three distinct beings in one Godhead. That is to say that the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

I'm afraid one saying it isn't so, doesn't not make it so.

v/r

Q

you are so right , one saying it isnt so ,doesnt make it so .but the word of the bible does say that Jehovah is the true God ,and Jesus christ is the first-born of creation ,and Jesus is the only begotten son of God this is over whelming scripture, so i like to base my beliefs on the pure word of God as it should be
If the Trinity doctrine had been taught by Jesus and his disciples, then surely leading churchmen who came immediately after them would also have taught it. But did those men, today called the Apostolic Fathers, teach the Trinity doctrine?

churchmen who wrote about Christianity in the late first and early second centuries of our Common Era. Some of them were Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Polycarp, Hermas, and Papias.

They were said to be contemporaries of some of the apostles. so they should have been familiar with apostolic teachings.

Taken as a whole the writings of the Apostolic Fathers are more valuable historically than any other Christian literature outside the New Testament.

If the apostles taught the Trinity doctrine, then those Apostolic Fathers should have taught it too. It should have been prominent in their teaching, since nothing was more important than telling people who God is. So did they teach the Trinity doctrine?.....no they didnt,because it was not a bible teaching ........ the trinity came later , just as the bible said it would...2 thessalonians 2;3
it is apparent that those responsible for its development had apostatized from true Christianity

Jesus Christ clearly stated that his true disciples must worship the Father in truth.(John 4:23, 24) Yes, our worship must be in harmony with the truth found in God’s Word, the Bible. This includes acceptance of Jesus Christ as the Son of God, not God the Son! (John 20:31; 1 John 4:15)

Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction...2 thessalonians 2;3

[Thomas]

Hi Amulek -

In the spirit of toleration I will not argue (as a Catholic) the Doctrine of the Trinity, but I will argue for factual historicity.

In the end, Constatine, though he was not at a Christian at the time, decided the official belief would be that they were all One Being, and over the next three hundred years the Arians were converted to Catholicism.

This is a commonly held but erroneous statement, which a study of Nicea, and the Church Councils, can demonstrate.

That Constantine asked the bishops to call a council, yes.

That Constantine asked that as a result of this council there should be a doctrine to which all Christians adhere, and thus by which one can be recognised as a Christian, yes.

But what, precisely, the content of that doctrine was, was up to the bishops to decide, and was decided by them, not Constantine.

The content of this Council was the Creed of Nicea, a basic statement of faith, not the council's invention, but founded on Apostolic teaching, its basic framework being 'The Apostles' Creed,' with certain theological clarifications necessary to combat those errors that were making themselves prevalent.

Whilst the date of 'The Apostles' Creed' (the tenth day after Christ's ascension), and that each apostle set one article of faith, is apocryphal, nevertheless the Creed of Nicea can trace its legitimacy through Patristic tradition, and through the Didache (written some time in the first or early second century) to the Apostles, and to Scripture.

Nor did Nicea solve all the problems, nor did it 'fix' Christianity from thenceforth. The Council of Chalcedon, 126 years later, continued the process, and theological dissent continued after that ...

One note:
'Catholic' in the context of Nicea ("I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church") does not, as many ignorantly assume, mean the Roman Catholic Church, but rather the definition of the word, which means 'universal.'

On Arianism:
Arius was a presbyter with the 'common touch' - he was a preacher, poet and a lyricist of note, and he composed songs of the faith for the sailors of his seaport parish, but it was the content of these songs that his followers began to question, being different from what had been made known to them in their catechetical training. Eventually they complained to their bishop, and this triggered the Arian dispute.

Notable, then, is that Arianism, a dispute that almost sundered the church, rose not among philosophers or theologians, but rose through the people, the faithful, and what they believed and, dare I say, they would have been right behind Constantine in insisting that a Christian from Alexandria ought to be able to talk to a Christian from Antioch and acknowledge that they hold certain basic facts, certain articles of faith, to be true.

It might also be noted that the councils were always called in response to a theological issue, never to set the ground, but to defend it.

The questions concerning the humanity and divinity of Christ, which you raise at the end of your post, were answered not at Nicea, but at Chalcedon.

Thomas

[Quahom1]

No where does it state that Jesus is the first born of creation. It does specifically state that before all was, Jesus describes Himself as "I AM Who AM." This is spoken in the present, though Jesus is describing the past and before it's beginnings. Second, the first fathers did speak of the three parts of God, including the Holy Spirit being a personality, not a force. In fact there are at least forty specific references in the Old and New testement that identify the personality and thinking of the Holy Spirit, and identifies the Holy Spirit as being God.

1) Helps: Jn 14:16,26, 15:26, 16:7, Rom 8:26, 1 Jn 2:1.
2) Glorifies: Jn 16:13-14.
3) Can be Known: Jn 14:17.
4) Gives Abilities: Acts 2:4, 1 Cor 12:7-11.
5) Referred to as "He": Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7-8,13.
6) Loves: Rom 15:30.
7) Guides: Jn 16:13.
8) Comforts: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, Acts 9:31.
9) Teaches: Lk 12:12, Jn 14:26.
10) Reminds: Jn 14:26.
11) Bears Witness: Jn 15:26, Acts 5:32, Rom 8:16.
12) Has Impulses: Jn 16:13.
13) Hears: Jn 16:13.
14) Leads: Mt 4:1, Acts 8:39, Rom 8:14.
15) Pleads: Rom 8:26-27.
16) Longs (Yearns): Jas 4:5.
17) Wills: 1 Cor 12:11.
18) Thinks: Acts 15:25,28.
19) Sends: Acts 13:4.
20) Dispatches: Acts 10:20.
21) Impels: Mk 1:12.
22) Speaks: Jn 16:13-15, Acts 8:29, 10:19, 11:12, 13:2.
23) Forbids: Acts 16:6-7.
24) Appoints: Acts 20:28.
25) Reveals: Lk 2:26, 1 Cor 2:10.
26) Calls to Ministry: Acts 13:2.
27) Can be Grieved: Is 63:10, Eph 4:30.
28) Can be Insulted: Heb 10:29.
29) Can be Lied to: Acts 5:3-4.
30) Can be Blasphemed: Mt 12:31-32.
31) Strives: Gen 6:3.
32) Is Knowledgeable: Is 40:13, Acts 10:19, 1 Cor 2:10-13.
33) Can be Vexed: Is 63:10.
34) Judges: Jn 16:8.
35) Prophesies: Acts 21:11, 28:25, 1 Tim 4:1.
36) Has Fellowship: 2 Cor 13:14.
37) Gives Grace: Heb 10:29.
38) Agrees: 1 Jn 5:7-8.
39) Offers Life: 2 Cor 3:6, Rev 22:17.
40) Is the Creator: Job 33:4.

Now there is a problem. If Jesus at His baptism was seen to have the Holy Spirit decend upon him before witnesses, and those same witnessed heard the Father from heaven stating how pleased He was with the actions of Jesus, at the same time, and if Jesus is the Word, and was with the Father, and in the Father and the Father in Him and the Word was God (as noted by John 1), then to say that the Holy Spirit is not God, and Jesus is not God, can be construed as blasphemy...(only God can be blasphemed). The Bible is also specific about denying the Holy Spirit as being the only unforgivable sin for man (again, only God can be blasphemed).

So, there is no denying the existence of God the father (between you and me).

But the Holy Spirit of God is shown to have personality, hence is person, not a force.

And Jesus clearly states, "I AM WHO AM". And Isaiah clearly states the name of God is "I AM".

And we read that all three were witnessed to be present at the same time before man, at least once...

As my folks pointed out, three distinct personalities, one GodHead (which is the mystery). However 1/3rd times 3/1 equals...1 which means if Three can be shown to be One in a simple math equation, there is something to ponder about the Trinity.

v/r

Q

[Thomas]

To clarify a point that Quahom1 made, re 'firstborn' (only should someone say 'ah, but...') -

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers. All things were created by him and in him. And he is before all: and by him all things consist."
Colossians 1:15-17

'firstborn' in this instance is first begotten; the only begotten of his Father: hence, St. Chrisostom explains firstborn, not first created, as he was not created at all, but born of his Father before all ages; that is, coeval with the Father and with the Holy Ghost.

As Quahom states, individual verses can only be properly understood in context of the whole text, else how do we treat Christ's saying "I am the door," when patently, he is not a door...

Again, the New Testament is foretold in the Old, but not determined by it, in this sense the New Testament illuminates and makes plain that which in the Old was obscure if not hidden, were it otherwise then it would be a continuation, not something New.

In closing, the Doctrine of the Trinity has been preached since Apostolic times, as they baptised then, as now, "In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit." It is unthinkable that the apostles taught that one can baptise in God's name, plus two others, as if God needed endorsement.

The Trinity is One God, not Three Gods, has been taught from the very foundation of the church, one Nature, Three Persons. Any other doctrine is a departure from this teaching, and whilst all Christians pray that His church be one, they acknowledge that it can only be one in spirit and in truth, without conflict and without dissent.

If you wish to argue otherwise, you must show how another doctrine was taught and promulgated., not simply that someone determined to interpret Scripture 'as they see it,' but as it was handed down from the Apostles.

Finally, it might be worth reminding ourselves that the Trinity is a Mystery unique to Christianity (other traditions have other triune structures, but none that compare). It is not easily nor simply understood, and can never be fully comprehended. It is, in its ineffibility, an article of Faith, not an object of knowledge.

Thomas

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

No where does it state that Jesus is the first born of creation. It does specifically state that before all was, Jesus describes Himself as "I AM Who AM." This is spoken in the present, though Jesus is describing the past and before it's beginnings. Second, the first fathers did speak of the three parts of God, including the Holy Spirit being a personality, not a force. In fact there are at least forty specific references in the Old and New testement that identify the personality and thinking of the Holy Spirit, and identifies the Holy Spirit as being God.

1) Helps: Jn 14:16,26, 15:26, 16:7, Rom 8:26, 1 Jn 2:1.
2) Glorifies: Jn 16:13-14.
3) Can be Known: Jn 14:17.
4) Gives Abilities: Acts 2:4, 1 Cor 12:7-11.
5) Referred to as "He": Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7-8,13.
6) Loves: Rom 15:30.
7) Guides: Jn 16:13.
8) Comforts: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, Acts 9:31.
9) Teaches: Lk 12:12, Jn 14:26.
10) Reminds: Jn 14:26.
11) Bears Witness: Jn 15:26, Acts 5:32, Rom 8:16.
12) Has Impulses: Jn 16:13.
13) Hears: Jn 16:13.
14) Leads: Mt 4:1, Acts 8:39, Rom 8:14.
15) Pleads: Rom 8:26-27.
16) Longs (Yearns): Jas 4:5.
17) Wills: 1 Cor 12:11.
18) Thinks: Acts 15:25,28.
19) Sends: Acts 13:4.
20) Dispatches: Acts 10:20.
21) Impels: Mk 1:12.
22) Speaks: Jn 16:13-15, Acts 8:29, 10:19, 11:12, 13:2.
23) Forbids: Acts 16:6-7.
24) Appoints: Acts 20:28.
25) Reveals: Lk 2:26, 1 Cor 2:10.
26) Calls to Ministry: Acts 13:2.
27) Can be Grieved: Is 63:10, Eph 4:30.
28) Can be Insulted: Heb 10:29.
29) Can be Lied to: Acts 5:3-4.
30) Can be Blasphemed: Mt 12:31-32.
31) Strives: Gen 6:3.
32) Is Knowledgeable: Is 40:13, Acts 10:19, 1 Cor 2:10-13.
33) Can be Vexed: Is 63:10.
34) Judges: Jn 16:8.
35) Prophesies: Acts 21:11, 28:25, 1 Tim 4:1.
36) Has Fellowship: 2 Cor 13:14.
37) Gives Grace: Heb 10:29.
38) Agrees: 1 Jn 5:7-8.
39) Offers Life: 2 Cor 3:6, Rev 22:17.
40) Is the Creator: Job 33:4.

Now there is a problem. If Jesus at His baptism was seen to have the Holy Spirit decend upon him before witnesses, and those same witnessed heard the Father from heaven stating how pleased He was with the actions of Jesus, at the same time, and if Jesus is the Word, and was with the Father, and in the Father and the Father in Him and the Word was God (as noted by John 1), then to say that the Holy Spirit is not God, and Jesus is not God, can be construed as blasphemy...(only God can be blasphemed). The Bible is also specific about denying the Holy Spirit as being the only unforgivable sin for man (again, only God can be blasphemed).

So, there is no denying the existence of God the father (between you and me).

But the Holy Spirit of God is shown to have personality, hence is person, not a force.

And Jesus clearly states, "I AM WHO AM". And Isaiah clearly states the name of God is "I AM".

And we read that all three were witnessed to be present at the same time before man, at least once...

As my folks pointed out, three distinct personalities, one GodHead (which is the mystery). However 1/3rd times 3/1 equals...1 which means if Three can be shown to be One in a simple math equation, there is something to ponder about the Trinity.

v/r

Q

yes, the active force of God can accomplish many things it can even help us ,it is a force in motion .but it has no personality
Regarding the Trinity, the Athanasian Creed (in English) says that its members are "incomprehensible." Teachers of the doctrine often state that it is a "mystery." Obviously such a Trinitarian God is not the one that Jesus had in mind when he said: "We worship what we know." (John 4:22, RS)