The Christian Trinity

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Thomas

To clarify a point that Quahom1 made, re 'firstborn' (only should someone say 'ah, but...') -

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers. All things were created by him and in him. And he is before all: and by him all things consist."
Colossians 1:15-17

'firstborn' in this instance is first begotten; the only begotten of his Father: hence, St. Chrisostom explains firstborn, not first created, as he was not created at all, but born of his Father before all ages; that is, coeval with the Father and with the Holy Ghost.

As Quahom states, individual verses can only be properly understood in context of the whole text, else how do we treat Christ's saying "I am the door," when patently, he is not a door...

Again, the New Testament is foretold in the Old, but not determined by it, in this sense the New Testament illuminates and makes plain that which in the Old was obscure if not hidden, were it otherwise then it would be a continuation, not something New.

In closing, the Doctrine of the Trinity has been preached since Apostolic times, as they baptised then, as now, "In the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit." It is unthinkable that the apostles taught that one can baptise in God's name, plus two others, as if God needed endorsement.

The Trinity is One God, not Three Gods, has been taught from the very foundation of the church, one Nature, Three Persons. Any other doctrine is a departure from this teaching, and whilst all Christians pray that His church be one, they acknowledge that it can only be one in spirit and in truth, without conflict and without dissent.

If you wish to argue otherwise, you must show how another doctrine was taught and promulgated., not simply that someone determined to interpret Scripture 'as they see it,' but as it was handed down from the Apostles.

Finally, it might be worth reminding ourselves that the Trinity is a Mystery unique to Christianity (other traditions have other triune structures, but none that compare). It is not easily nor simply understood, and can never be fully comprehended. It is, in its ineffibility, an article of Faith, not an object of knowledge.

Thomas

Thomas, some people simply refuse to read everything. Like my wife says of me..."selective hearing".

I personally cannot ignore one part of the Bible in order to make a point in another part. For example while some insist on speaking God's name, others refuse to even fully call God, "God" in title. I asked why once, and was told that giving a name to someone is akin to claiming ownership or possesion over that one.

Personally however, I do become grated, when my own faith is constantly put in the spot light as being "wrong". But now I sigh. I know what I know, and believe what I believe, and try to do it for the glory of a Supreme being I perceive.

I also know from my own animals, that a horse with blinders on, has a limited view on what is actually around him/her. Blinders are to keep a horse from being spooked into bolting, but there are consequences...

v/r

Q

[Quahom1]

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic (universal, not Roman) and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Isn't it ironic that this Nicene Creed concentrates on one part of the trinity more than the others?

Some say no...I am at peace with yes, the Trinity is real and accurate (to the best of our human abilities to perceive such), as to the concept of the one Creator of this existence.

v/r

Q

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Force does not have emotions, thoughts, decisions to make, The Bible clearly states the Holy Spirit has one hell of a personality. You simply ignore what the references are to back that up.

Can't get any clearer than that. Holy Spirit of God is a personality, not a force.

v/r

Q

yes you are right, the active force of God does not have emotions

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

yes you are right, the active force of God does not have emotions

But the Holy Spirit of God does have emotions...and I've shown that quite clearly.

v/r

Q

[Curios Mike]

Ok let me use a johavah witness illistration. Ok In the Jones Family You have a father, a mother, and a son. The sons name is Brian, moms name is mary, and Dads name is John. But When the local Church folx talk about the family they refer to them as the Jone's. They do not Call the the Johns, The Brians, or The Maries, but R refered to as Jones.

Dad is the authority of the house. He lays down the rules, and Loves his family. He provides and sets Guidlines.

Brian is the exact image of his Dad, Has his personality, his looks, and follows his Rules to a T.... Perfect example to his Friends in the Comunity. By the way Brian has a lot of Friends, Being that his Dad has literly adopted every child in the community willing to be adopted.

Now Mom is.... lets say active force.... She lays down Dads laws, and instructs The adopted kids on Which manner they should act, and Follow Brians lead. I call her the active force becuase She is the one that interacts mostly with the kids, but As everyone else knows this woman is fulll of emotions, and She is a person not a power. Powerfull person in the house but not the power. Believe me John Has plenty of muscles he can flex.

Thus ends the goofy family analogy of The Jones to illustrate the Trinity.

As far as the Holy Spirit he is a he not an it(a force is an it, not a he):

John 14:16-17
16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- 17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
NKJV


John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
NKJV

John 15:26-27
26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. 27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.
NKJV

John 16:7-8
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
NKJV

Anyways.... Maybe more to come, but My active force is riding my butt to get off this thing!!!!!! I dont want to grieve her neither!!!!

[Quahom1]

Lol, interesting way to put things...but it makes sense.

v/r

Q

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Curios Mike

Ok let me use a johavah witness illistration.

Ok, now I'm confused. I thought JWs rejected the Trinity.

lunamoth

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Ok, now I'm confused. I thought JWs rejected the Trinity.

lunamoth

They do...

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

They do...

OK, well I know that that family description is not how I think about the Trinity, but then again it is a Mystery and many Christians have ways of explaining it that are not to my understanding...just trying to learn here.

lunamoth

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

OK, well I know that that family description is not how I think about the Trinity, but then again it is a Mystery and many Christians have ways of explaining it that are not to my understanding...just trying to learn here.

lunamoth

Fair enough, I will rephrase:

Re: The Christian Trinity
No where does it state that Jesus is the first born of creation. It does specifically state that before all was, Jesus describes Himself as "I AM Who AM." This is spoken in the present, though Jesus is describing the past and before it's beginnings. Second, the first fathers did speak of the three parts of God, including the Holy Spirit being a personality, not a force. In fact there are at least forty specific references in the Old and New testement that identify the personality and thinking of the Holy Spirit, and identifies the Holy Spirit as being God.

1) Helps: Jn 14:16,26, 15:26, 16:7, Rom 8:26, 1 Jn 2:1.
2) Glorifies: Jn 16:13-14.
3) Can be Known: Jn 14:17.
4) Gives Abilities: Acts 2:4, 1 Cor 12:7-11.
5) Referred to as "He": Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7-8,13.
6) Loves: Rom 15:30.
7) Guides: Jn 16:13.
8) Comforts: Jn 14:26, 15:26, 16:7, Acts 9:31.
9) Teaches: Lk 12:12, Jn 14:26.
10) Reminds: Jn 14:26.
11) Bears Witness: Jn 15:26, Acts 5:32, Rom 8:16.
12) Has Impulses: Jn 16:13.
13) Hears: Jn 16:13.
14) Leads: Mt 4:1, Acts 8:39, Rom 8:14.
15) Pleads: Rom 8:26-27.
16) Longs (Yearns): Jas 4:5.
17) Wills: 1 Cor 12:11.
18) Thinks: Acts 15:25,28.
19) Sends: Acts 13:4.
20) Dispatches: Acts 10:20.
21) Impels: Mk 1:12.
22) Speaks: Jn 16:13-15, Acts 8:29, 10:19, 11:12, 13:2.
23) Forbids: Acts 16:6-7.
24) Appoints: Acts 20:28.
25) Reveals: Lk 2:26, 1 Cor 2:10.
26) Calls to Ministry: Acts 13:2.
27) Can be Grieved: Is 63:10, Eph 4:30.
28) Can be Insulted: Heb 10:29.
29) Can be Lied to: Acts 5:3-4.
30) Can be Blasphemed: Mt 12:31-32.
31) Strives: Gen 6:3.
32) Is Knowledgeable: Is 40:13, Acts 10:19, 1 Cor 2:10-13.
33) Can be Vexed: Is 63:10.
34) Judges: Jn 16:8.
35) Prophesies: Acts 21:11, 28:25, 1 Tim 4:1.
36) Has Fellowship: 2 Cor 13:14.
37) Gives Grace: Heb 10:29.
38) Agrees: 1 Jn 5:7-8.
39) Offers Life: 2 Cor 3:6, Rev 22:17.
40) Is the Creator: Job 33:4.

Now there is a problem. If Jesus at His baptism was seen to have the Holy Spirit decend upon him before witnesses, and those same witnessed heard the Father from heaven stating how pleased He was with the actions of Jesus, at the same time, and if Jesus is the Word, and was with the Father, and in the Father and the Father in Him and the Word was God (as noted by John 1), then to say that the Holy Spirit is not God, and Jesus is not God, can be construed as blasphemy...(only God can be blasphemed). The Bible is also specific about denying the Holy Spirit as being the only unforgivable sin for man (again, only God can be blasphemed).

So, there is no denying the existence of God the father (between you and me).

But the Holy Spirit of God is shown to have personality, hence is person, not a force.

And Jesus clearly states, "I AM WHO AM". And Isaiah clearly states the name of God is "I AM".

And we read that all three were witnessed to be present at the same time before man, at least once...

As my folks pointed out, three distinct personalities, one GodHead (which is the mystery). However 1/3rd times 3/1 equals...1 which means if Three can be shown to be One in a simple math equation, there is something to ponder about the Trinity.



Mind, Body, Spirit...three distinct parts of one person. or three entities with one purpose. Who knows for certain? Only that there is something about the trinity that is so important for Christians to accept and believe.

v/r

Q

[lunamoth]

Hi Q, no arguements from me about this. I totally agree that the Holy Spirit is one of the three Persons and is a Person, not a force. The Comforter, the Counselor, the One Who Jesus sends. I accept the Mystery of the Three as One. I also understand that it is technically heresy to think of the Three Persons as three different roles of God (modalism, goes to far affirming the Unity of God) or as three equal but independent autonomous Persons (tritheism, goes to far affirming the distinctiveness of the Three Persons). From: Trinity.

lunamoth

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Who knows for certain? Only that there is something about the trinity that is so important for Christians to accept and believe.

v/r

Q

Agreed.

[mee]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Ok, now I'm confused. I thought JWs rejected the Trinity.

lunamoth

they do

[mee]

The idea of the trinity was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord...... people can throw scriptures around but if they are not based on accurrate knowledge of the bible it is futile

This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.....John 17;3 yes , we dont need to know about mysterys because the bible is based on accurate knowledge about Jehovah God and Jesus christ .its more important to be faithful to the teaching of Jesus and the early apostles. rather than manmade doctrines , but everyone to their own , thats just the way i feel , it would make me feel that i was an apostate to the true God, to take on other teachings not based on truth of the bible.did not Jesus warn about such things ,best to keep to the bible teaching that is the best .yes Gods name it self means ......He causes to become....... so he can accomplish whatever he whats through his Holyspirit. it is an active force from God

,the Bible and history makes clear that the Trinity was unknown throughout Biblical times and for several centuries thereafter

[Thomas]

the Bible and history makes clear that the Trinity was unknown throughout Biblical times and for several centuries thereafter

I'm sorry, but that is patently wrong - as others have repeatedly shown. Let me repeat again:

"And the angel answered and said unto her (Mary), The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
Luke 1:35

"Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
Matthew 28:19

So Father, Son and Holy Spirit is thoroughly Scriptural - and for those 'with the eyes to see' permeates the Old Testament as well as the New.

Your issue is not with Scripture, but with the unfolding and understanding of its Revelation. The emergence of doctrine follows Scripture and clarifies it, doctrine does not invent 'add-on' extras to the content of revelation, nor do the Church Councils sit down and decide to invent something - as if pulling a rabbit from a hat.

Doctrine is, and was always, a means to prevent the faihful falling into error by the provision of a more defined teaching - not a new teaching, but a clarification of what is being taught. Father, Son and Holy Spirit were spoken of by Christ from the very first, and Christians expressed 'a belief in' the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as is evidenced by the Creeds, which would comprise a blesphemous statement if they did not understand that Father, Son and Holy Spirit were Three and One.

The term 'Trinity' came into use as a means of expressing the coequal and coeval nature of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, it is not a term nor a doctrine that differs from the essential message of Scripture, which in fact provides the entirely of its foundation.

Thomas