The case of Abdul Rahman

[thipps]

Originally Posted by peter_sadiq

It is not just illiterate Mullahs and masses who atribute such inhuman concepts towards Islam, rather, even the most visionary and learned considered scholars (Like Maulana Maudoodi & Dr. Israr Ahmad) are presenting Islam in a manner that is not acceptable to the very nature of human.

They are mostly considered visionary by people within the sub-continent region and more so in pakistan especially Maudoodi. You will be very surprised if you take his name outside pakistan. I dont consider them visionaries and neither great scholars.
I dont want to waver from the topic and i suggest you do the same but since you mention them and erroenously state them to be considered visionaries, I thought it pertinent to point out the nature of this reality.
If you know Maudoodi and the relevant political party, you would know thier philosophy and thier traits, and that would point you towards what they really are. secondly, if you read his tafseer(explanation of the Quran), you would again be pointed towards what he really was.
Dr. Israr is a similar issue somewhat as he talks quite positively about Maudoodi though he says many other good things too but that doesnt negate the former attitude. He admits that he is mostly self-taught though he was helped along the way by some others as well which he named. So, obviously, there is much left to be desired.
peter sadiq, i suggest that you not portray the likes of the residents of one country and project them as somewhat universal.. they arent. As you can see, they definitely are not even universal in pakistan.
regards,
thipps.

[Devadatta]

Hi Phipps.

I’ve realized that the views I’ve expressed so far in this thread are really so foreign to your worldview as to cut off all discussion. So I apologize for that.

And I have to admit to having been fairly blissfully ignorant up to this point on how deeply this notion of apostasy goes in Islam. Since then, I’ve done a little research. You are quite correct that yours is the dominant view on this, both among the legal schools and in the general culture of many Muslim nations.

In fact, I think apostasy is the key issue in Islam and its relationship to other faiths, non-faiths and the modern world in general. The notion of apostasy lies at the root of religiously sanctioned violence; it explains phenomena like rioting over cartoons, and forms one of the foundations for otherwise inexplicable phenomena like extremist terrorism.

Now, I would be really depressed if I thought the view you and some others have presented here, common or mainstream as it may be, is the only one, or the only one possible for Islam – because I don’t know how such a view can ever be reconciled with even the most fundamental notions of human rights & freedoms.

Luckily, this traditional view of apostasy is not the only one. I have discovered other Muslim views that hold the Koran does not sanction killing or severe punishment for mere apostasy, that as in the New Testament punishment for unbelief is more properly left to God, that much of what is taken for granted by the ordinary Muslim is often the later construction of legal scholars & clerics, conditioned by the needs & politics of the day, and raising to universal principles what was meant only for a particular time & place. In short, these other views say that another Islam is possible, and indeed more representative of its great achievements of the past.

I recognize that these are very complicated & sensitive questions, and it would require a lot of discussion of the relevant texts and their history to adequately understand one another. At present, I wouldn’t be up to the task.

But I have begun a careful re-reading of the Koran with a view to developing a deeper understanding. Should I develop that I understanding and feel I have anything of benefit to offer, I would like to return to this forum for a discussion of what the Koran says, strictly in its own terms.

In the meantime, I’d like to encourage any Muslims with alternate views on this core issue to start posting. It can only enrich the discussion & increase understanding.

Sincerely,
Devadatta

[Amica]

Peace be to all of you.

I am a Muslim and do not agree with the threat to kill this man's life. First of all, the hadith quoted by some is a hadith thought to be said by the Prophet Muhammad savs. We cannot know this for sure.

Second of all, if Prophet Muhammad savs ordered people killed simply for apostasy, then that would contradict the Holy Qur'an and its commandments about no compulsion in religion, 'you have your faith and I have mine, ' etc.

A Muslim is to kill a disbeliever only when he is attacked and his life, the life of his family and Muslim community is in danger. Of course if Islam is being prevented from practice--that is opression of Muslims.

Second of all, Allah Almighty never says (to my understanding, at least) that the Jews and Christians are disbelievers. It is stated that they are in error about certain things, that many of them do not believe in Him, but the Almighty constantly reminds us that some among the People of the Bible do believe!

If the hadith where Prophet Muhammad savs was reported ordering of the apostates to be killed is true, the question then should be asked what else was considered in the decision because in the Prophet's time the apostasy meant treason because those who left Islam in his time went to fight and kill Muslims later. In our day this may not be the case. Abdul Rahman while converted to Christianity, did not threaten Muslims around him and did not certainly try to kill anyone.

I read in my local newspapers that a family member notified the 'authorities' about this new Christian man after an argument. One cannot help but wonder what was reported about him to the afghan authorities.

Because after all if this man's 'guilt' is only conversion to Christianity, then what should they do to the president Karhzai who is ally of the Christians, and helped create a constitution providing 'freedom of religion' in Afghanistan, meaning Islam cannot be a dominant one.

I believe there is more to the story. And I believe this man has a right to choose his own belief system. If God wanted to leave him in Islam, Abdul Rahman would still be a Muslim. Maybe through this man, God Almighty is trying to teach Muslims to remember that God Almighty did not create everyone in the world to be Muslim and that so long as people are not killing us, attacking us and opressing Islam, we are not allowed to mistreat and attack other people.

[Quahom1]

He is in Italy, and has been given asylum. He has been called insane at home. Yet, clerics have and still are calling for his execution. Why would anyone want to execute an "insane man" who has done no physical harm to anyone, and who has left his original sphere of potential influence (able to possibly convert others from the Islamic faith)? I find it ironic that when the Hommenei (sp) of Iran was in exile, no one went after him (while he lived in France), but let someone say (I want no part of Islam), and that is a death sentence? How can that be explained as reasonable and logical?

The man changed his mind. Worst case scenario, shun him. Turn one's back on the rejector. Let him leave and not come back. Calling for his execution due to law? What law? The Qu'ran? Isn't that the ultimate law of the Muslim? If so, somebody missed the boat.

Why are the clerics going after their new "democratic form more or less, of government"? This has the makings of the beginnings of a war within the country. Religious against secular.

Maybe the cynics are right...Islam and democratic principles may just be incompatible. In this case, those for democracy should quit while the quitting is good. Or maybe it isn't Islam that is the problem with democracy, but rather "individuals" who want power. As far as I can tell, Islam and democracy do work together, so there is another issue here, that we are not addressing, or are not privy to.

Where do I come up with this thought? Turkey is to Islam as the United States is to Christianity (majority faith per state). Yet, both adhere to a democratic form of government for the most part. And both are more or less stable in their governments...

my thoughts

v/r

q

[Amica]

Salaam/peace.

I feel sometimes like from another planet when I hear certain people among the Muslim community saying/doing certain things that, to my islamic upbringing, contradicts Islam.

I was raised among Muslims, went to religious classes to learn to pray and learn to be a better Muslim, and never heard that a person is to be killed if they left Islam. The imams in my bosnian hometown and in our Bosnia in general thought us that Islam does not teach to hate others, that we cannot force people to be Muslims and that we have to remember that if someone is pressuring us to believe other than Allah (God) then we should tell them that they have their faith and we have ours. Respectfully. I was never told by any of our imams to hate others because of what they believe and I was never told that converting to a faith that is monotheistic is something to kill for.

My eyes pop out when I see some things or hear certain individuals say some stuff! Can't comprehend that some people would hold a hadith in higher esteem than the Word of God (Qur'an) because the Holy Qur'an should topple every other writing we have in regards to the Shari'a laws! If the hadiths that some people are gripping on to in order to explain certain 'sharia' laws were true, they would not be contradicting the Holy Qur'an. And Allah Almighty said that if something is contradictory it is not from Him! Obviously then a murder for apostasy would be contradictory to the Holy Qur'an because Allah/God in the Qur'an says that He did not create the people in the world to be all Muslims, that there must be no compulsion in religion, that we should respect others' believes but love our own, that Islam is the right path but that some people have a choice to turn a blind eye if they wish, that the death is spiritual and not something that we should cause.

Am I missing something or what? I believe that the Afghanistan needs a lot of social development, they need a lot of more reading into the Qur'an, etc.
We do not need an imam/cleric to tell me what is in the Qur'an. I can read the Book by myself and with God given help of my mind I can know in my mind and my heart what God is conveying to me. If there is something I do not understand I may ask others who may be knowledgable for possible interpretation, but most of all I could pray to the Almighty for help to understand. But I am not going to believe just anything some cleric tells me to believe. I am not receiving anyone to be my teacher because God is my Only True Teacher and I cannot accept that God would contradict Himself because He would never do that!

God forbid, why do some Muslims make Islam seem so horrific! Because of them there is increase in the islamophobia and because of them even those people who try to understand our struggles are taken by a shock!

I guess one hadith was certainly true: it says that in the End Times, there will be those who will speak things about Islam that will be new and something believers did not hear before, something of practice that was never practiced in Islam (i.e. accept Islam or die, stoning women, killing rape victims, etc. and all this claiming that it is from Islam and in truth these do not come from Islam).

I say, I am a Muslim. I believe in human freedom and right to believe what they want. I believe in Allah the Merciful, Almighty. I believe in His Word and His Truth. I believe in His Prophets pbut and I denounce those who want to speak in my name and in the name of my religion while commiting or demanding acts that are not islamic!

[Devadatta]

Originally Posted by Amica

Peace be to all of you.

I am a Muslim and do not agree with the threat to kill this man's life. First of all, the hadith quoted by some is a hadith thought to be said by the Prophet Muhammad savs. We cannot know this for sure.

Second of all, if Prophet Muhammad savs ordered people killed simply for apostasy, then that would contradict the Holy Qur'an and its commandments about no compulsion in religion, 'you have your faith and I have mine, ' etc.

A Muslim is to kill a disbeliever only when he is attacked and his life, the life of his family and Muslim community is in danger. Of course if Islam is being prevented from practice--that is opression of Muslims.

Second of all, Allah Almighty never says (to my understanding, at least) that the Jews and Christians are disbelievers. It is stated that they are in error about certain things, that many of them do not believe in Him, but the Almighty constantly reminds us that some among the People of the Bible do believe!

If the hadith where Prophet Muhammad savs was reported ordering of the apostates to be killed is true, the question then should be asked what else was considered in the decision because in the Prophet's time the apostasy meant treason because those who left Islam in his time went to fight and kill Muslims later. In our day this may not be the case. Abdul Rahman while converted to Christianity, did not threaten Muslims around him and did not certainly try to kill anyone.

I read in my local newspapers that a family member notified the 'authorities' about this new Christian man after an argument. One cannot help but wonder what was reported about him to the afghan authorities.

Because after all if this man's 'guilt' is only conversion to Christianity, then what should they do to the president Karhzai who is ally of the Christians, and helped create a constitution providing 'freedom of religion' in Afghanistan, meaning Islam cannot be a dominant one.

I believe there is more to the story. And I believe this man has a right to choose his own belief system. If God wanted to leave him in Islam, Abdul Rahman would still be a Muslim. Maybe through this man, God Almighty is trying to teach Muslims to remember that God Almighty did not create everyone in the world to be Muslim and that so long as people are not killing us, attacking us and opressing Islam, we are not allowed to mistreat and attack other people.

Greatly appreciate your post, Amica. And I think you’ve put your finger on the problem: the identification of apostasy with treason. This identification dates from the early days of the so-called wars of apostasy when Mohammed and his successors struggled with the pagans of the Arabian peninsula. These “apostates” in those barbaric times were literally at war with Islam and quite understandably the rules of war applied. But to say that this means automatically than any form of “apostasy” – which some clerics apply to everything from disrespecting the Qu’ran or Mohammed to having wrong metaphysical views – merits death goes against not only 2:256 (No compulsion in religion) but against a whole host of surahs that make clear that Christians & Jews like Muslims all worship the God of Abraham, and that any Jew or Christian that submits to Abraham’s God and follows his law will have nothing to fear on judgement day. Mohammed’s critique of Jews & Christians is fundamentally the same as all the prophets of the Jewish scriptures as well as Jesus: that they were not living up to their own scriptures and to the original covenant.

One other thing, it’s bad enough that the tradition fell into this trap of equating all “apostasy” with treason, but what’s worse is that modern so-called reformers of the faith have only more rigidly confirmed (what I would call) this tragic error. For example, Maududi, who is reputed to be one of the greatest revivers of the legal tradition in the 20th century (after a period of some decline under the colonial impact) makes this exact equation., He very cogently sets out all the obvious objections to the death penalty, and then dismisses them all with the notion of treason. To dissent from Islam is to commit treason, end of story. (You'll find this buried in this long article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam).

Now, to me this is huge. When you consider that many clerics, as I’ve said, assimilate every form of “blasphemy” or deviance in thought or behaviour to apostasy, then really you have an entire system of social control which in my view is not only at variance with the noble & vigorous core of Islam but is a recipe for cultural stagnation and a ready rational for every form of religiously sanctioned violence. In this sense, there’s a direct line between Maududi and the Taliban, Qutb and every other totalitarian ideology now going under the name of Islam.

Now perhaps I’ve said too much. But I want to emphasize that I’m not putting into question any of Islam’s core claims as to its grasp of ultimate truth, its claim of Mohammed as the final prophet, or its right to defend itself by whatever means it thinks proper. What I’m putting into question is this whole legalist/cultural construction of apostasy, which I and others are saying is not part of Islam’s core but an increasingly destructive elaboration.

Sincerely,
Devadatta.

[Devadatta]

Originally Posted by Amica

Salaam/peace.

I feel sometimes like from another planet when I hear certain people among the Muslim community saying/doing certain things that, to my islamic upbringing, contradicts Islam.

I was raised among Muslims, went to religious classes to learn to pray and learn to be a better Muslim, and never heard that a person is to be killed if they left Islam. The imams in my bosnian hometown and in our Bosnia in general thought us that Islam does not teach to hate others, that we cannot force people to be Muslims and that we have to remember that if someone is pressuring us to believe other than Allah (God) then we should tell them that they have their faith and we have ours. Respectfully. I was never told by any of our imams to hate others because of what they believe and I was never told that converting to a faith that is monotheistic is something to kill for.

My eyes pop out when I see some things or hear certain individuals say some stuff! Can't comprehend that some people would hold a hadith in higher esteem than the Word of God (Qur'an) because the Holy Qur'an should topple every other writing we have in regards to the Shari'a laws! If the hadiths that some people are gripping on to in order to explain certain 'sharia' laws were true, they would not be contradicting the Holy Qur'an. And Allah Almighty said that if something is contradictory it is not from Him! Obviously then a murder for apostasy would be contradictory to the Holy Qur'an because Allah/God in the Qur'an says that He did not create the people in the world to be all Muslims, that there must be no compulsion in religion, that we should respect others' believes but love our own, that Islam is the right path but that some people have a choice to turn a blind eye if they wish, that the death is spiritual and not something that we should cause.

Am I missing something or what? I believe that the Afghanistan needs a lot of social development, they need a lot of more reading into the Qur'an, etc.
We do not need an imam/cleric to tell me what is in the Qur'an. I can read the Book by myself and with God given help of my mind I can know in my mind and my heart what God is conveying to me. If there is something I do not understand I may ask others who may be knowledgable for possible interpretation, but most of all I could pray to the Almighty for help to understand. But I am not going to believe just anything some cleric tells me to believe. I am not receiving anyone to be my teacher because God is my Only True Teacher and I cannot accept that God would contradict Himself because He would never do that!

God forbid, why do some Muslims make Islam seem so horrific! Because of them there is increase in the islamophobia and because of them even those people who try to understand our struggles are taken by a shock!

I guess one hadith was certainly true: it says that in the End Times, there will be those who will speak things about Islam that will be new and something believers did not hear before, something of practice that was never practiced in Islam (i.e. accept Islam or die, stoning women, killing rape victims, etc. and all this claiming that it is from Islam and in truth these do not come from Islam).

I say, I am a Muslim. I believe in human freedom and right to believe what they want. I believe in Allah the Merciful, Almighty. I believe in His Word and His Truth. I believe in His Prophets pbut and I denounce those who want to speak in my name and in the name of my religion while commiting or demanding acts that are not islamic!

A beautiful post, Amica, and very heartening. You're the future, IMHO.

Peace,
Devadatta.