the Bible from a Jehovah's Witness perspective

[mee]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

All sorts of men? A convenient modification.





Chris

All men are all sorts ,we are all different, but after taking in accurate knowledge about Jehovah and Jesus , we are all in unity of purpose, and have the hope of being saved, yes from all nations and tribes , all sorts of men and women
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus.... romans 10;12
What about texts such as Titus 2:11, which refers to "the salvation of all men," according to the rendering of RS? Other texts, such as John 12:32, Romans 5:18, and 1 Timothy 2:3, 4, convey a similar thought in RS, KJ, NE, TEV, etc. The Greek expressions rendered "all" and "everyone" in these verses are inflected forms of the word pas. As shown in Vine’s Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words (London, 1962, Vol. I, p. 46), pas can also mean "every kind or variety." So, in the above verses, instead of "all," the expression "every kind of" could be used; or "all sorts of," as is done in NW. Which is correct—"all" or the thought conveyed by "all sorts of"? Well, which rendering is also harmonious with the rest of the Bible? The latter one is. Consider Acts 10:34, 35; Revelation 7:9, 10; 2 Thessalonians 1:9. (Note: Other translators also recognize this sense of the Greek word, as is shown by their renderings of it at Matthew 5:11—"all kinds of," RS, TEV; "every kind of," NE; "all manner of," KJ.)

[Dor]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

The welcome was back to the Christianity Forum, thank you very much.

No Q I was saying welcome to the New World Translation cause he specifically mentioned the way it is changed in the post I quoted.
So thank you very much.

[E99]

Hello Mee....and all

You quote from Timothy 2: 3,4 ....The NWT is a good translation, the usage of the words ’All sorts of men’ is reasonable, although, I have always felt that the insertion of the word ‘accurate’ is pushing it a bit. However, the Greek word epignosis used in this text; and also found at 2 Timothy 3:7 literally means ‘On-knowledge‘, which seems to say that more than just knowledge is needed. Also, the context of the whole of the scriptures seem to imply that accuracy of its meaning and of the creator is required. So 'accurate knowledge' is a reasonable rendering....just about !


Your quote:
Accurate Knowledge of Jesus is Vital to Salvation
How, then, can one gain true salvation? First Timothy 2:3, 4 answers: [God’s] will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth.


Dor and sunflower seem to question the usage of the words ‘All sorts of men’ in the NWT


Quote from Sunflower:
All sorts of men? A convenient modification.


Reply from Dor
Welcome Chris to the NWT !


These quotes seem to imply that the NWT has somewhat modified the original Greek, (and Hebrew) text on translation and transliteration. A common allegation on most websites and forums, but usually without any true back up found to the assertions.


Looking at the original Greek relating to these verses, we can see that the Jehovah’s witnesses New world translation has done no more of a supposed theological bias modification of the original Greek text than any other translation.


Reading the Greek and English renderings from the 1881 Westcott and Hort translation: 1 Timothy 2: 3,4 reads:


Houtos (this) Kalos (ideal) ka (and) Apodekos (welcome) enopion (in view) ho (of the) soter (saviour) ego (of us) theos (God) hos (who) pas (all) ANTHROPOS (humans)
thelo (is willing) sozo (to be saved) kai (and) eis (into) epignosis (on-knowledge) aletheia (of truth) erchomai (to be coming)


Direct English translation reads as:

"This ideal and welcome in view of the saviour of us God who all humans is willing to be saved and into on-knowledge of truth to be coming."


Syntax: Westcott and Hort: 1 Timothy 2: 3,4 renders it in English as:

“For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our saviour. Who will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”


The NWT word it as:

“This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Saviour, God, whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth.”


The point that Sunflower and Dor seem to pull out is that ‘All sorts of men’ is a modification, possibly to suit the JW theology. This clearly is not the case as the transliteration comes directly from the Greek word Anthropos, a word that we are all familiar with.... meaning humans. ‘All sorts of men’ and ‘all men’ are accurate renderings of the Greek word anthropos. If however we had put ‘all sorts of primates’ we’d be making a monkey out of the transliteration.


Shalohm

[Dor]

Originally Posted by E99

The point that Sunflower and Dor seem to pull out is that ‘All sorts of men’ is a modification, possibly to suit the JW theology.

Actually I did not even look at the change at this particular verse at all so my point was not they made that modification to suit any theology. My point was and is the NWT has some very perculiar translations they use, not if it is to suit their theology.
That is for each individual to decide on their own.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by mee

yes thats correct , they are not doing what Jesus told them too, they are followers in name only, that was the point i was trying to make , even though they think they are doing right in Gods eyes it seems they will not be doing the right things , So it is important to have accurate knowledge about Jehovah and Jesus then we can do the things they want us too

They know they are not doing right. It is only lip service for show (the only reward they get is the audience they command here on earth. It has nothing to do with those that try in earnest to do what God wants (though they are mistaken), that Jesus recognizes as His own.

As much as you think you are right in what you do, others think they are right in how they follow Christ (to the best of their understanding). Jesus I opine will recognize both you and they.

But for those who do nothing but put on a show, He will say "I don't know you". That is the message we are bluntly told, Mee.

Not whether the proper "religion" was followed. And I submit according to the new testament, that it isn't Jehovah (God the Father) that saves man, nor can man go directly to Jehovah (on anything). It is only Jesus that is man's salvation. Therefore what Jesus said, best be not taken lightly, nor should He be considered second fiddle when eternity is considered.

my thoughts.

v/r

Q

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Dor

No Q I was saying welcome to the New World Translation cause he specifically mentioned the way it is changed in the post I quoted.
So thank you very much.

Ok.

[mee]

Originally Posted by E99

Hello Mee....and all

Hi, yes i also think ( all sorts of men )is a reasonable translation as it goes along in harmony with the rest of the bible teaching,
After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: "Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb............. revelation 7;9-10 there is no partiality with God,
"For a certainty I perceive that God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him."—Ac 10:34, 35; Ro 2:10, 11. yes men from all nations
(Isaiah 2:2) And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream.............. yes , we are now in the final part of the days ,and many from all nations are on an elavated spiritual place , because they have taken in instruction from Jehovah.
And many peoples will certainly go and say: "Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, Isaiah 2;3
And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.................. Jehovahs instruction is most beneficial to us . and i love it, for me there is no better place to be,

[mee]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

They know they are not doing right. It is only lip service for show (the only reward they get is the audience they command here on earth. It has nothing to do with those that try in earnest to do what God wants (though they are mistaken), that Jesus recognizes as His own.

As much as you think you are right in what you do, others think they are right in how they follow Christ (to the best of their understanding). Jesus I opine will recognize both you and they.

But for those who do nothing but put on a show, He will say "I don't know you". That is the message we are bluntly told, Mee.

Not whether the proper "religion" was followed. And I submit according to the new testament, that it isn't Jehovah (God the Father) that saves man, nor can man go directly to Jehovah (on anything). It is only Jesus that is man's salvation. Therefore what Jesus said, best be not taken lightly, nor should He be considered second fiddle when eternity is considered.

my thoughts.

v/r

Q

yes you are quite right ,Jesus plays a very very big part in the out working of Jehovahs purpose for this earth . we should listen to him, there is no salvation in any one else

[mee]

Of the many gifts you could ever hope to receive, there is one that stands out above all others. It is a gift from God to mankind. Jehovah has given us many things, but his greatest gift to us is the ransom sacrifice of his Son, Jesus Christ. (Matthew 20:28) the ransom is the most valuable gift you could possibly receive, for it can bring untold happiness and can fill our most important needs. The ransom is really the greatest expression of Jehovah’s love for you.
Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many. matthew 20;28
what is the ransom?
Put simply, the ransom is Jehovah’s means to deliver, or save, humankind from sin and death. (Ephesians 1:7)
How would it be possible to cover the enormous loss that Adam inflicted on all of us and to release us from slavery to sin and death?
Since a perfect human life was lost, no imperfect human life could ever buy it back. (Psalm 49:7, 8) What was needed was a ransom equal in value to what was lost. This is in harmony with the principle of perfect justice found in God’s Word, which says: "Soul will be for soul." (Deuteronomy 19:21) So, what would cover the value of the perfect human soul, or life, that Adam lost? Another perfect human life was the "corresponding ransom" that was required.—1 Timothy 2:6.
How did Jehovah provide the ransom? He sent one of his perfect spirit sons to the earth. But Jehovah did not send just any spirit creature. He sent the one most precious to him, his only-begotten Son. (1 John 4:9, 10) Willingly, this Son left his heavenly home. (Philippians 2:7) what a wonderful gift to us

[mee]

The Divine Name Through the Ages
There is evidence from sources outside the Bible of the extensive use of the divine name in ancient times.

[mee]

True Teachings—Where Can You Find Them?
Out of the vast array of beliefs, how can we identify true teachings that please God?

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by mee in Post 12

the wicked one is still in power untill he is destroyed by God . in 1914 he was cast out of heaven , upuntill that date he had access still , but not after that date ,the wicked one has no power over Gods heavenly kingdom after that date . but satan is on death row and he knows it

This is very strange--the idea that the wicked one was cast out of heaven in 1914 AD. Jesus said two thousand years ago that he saw Satan fall from heaven. So I guess Satan was cast out long before 1914. I'm not sure how anyone could come up with this idea being we have clear scripture to contradict it.

[mee]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

This is very strange--the idea that the wicked one was cast out of heaven in 1914 AD. Jesus said two thousand years ago that he saw Satan fall from heaven. So I guess Satan was cast out long before 1914. I'm not sure how anyone could come up with this idea being we have clear scripture to contradict it.

So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. ..... revelation 12;9 the book of revelation is for our day , we are in the Lords day right now, its all happening in this time of the end. Jesus cast the rebels out of his heavenly goverment because rebels do not work in line with Jehovah and Jesus christ , they are against Gods purpose..... so out they are thrown.

[aburaees]

Originally Posted by RubySera_Martin

This is very strange--the idea that the wicked one was cast out of heaven in 1914 AD. Jesus said two thousand years ago that he saw Satan fall from heaven. So I guess Satan was cast out long before 1914. I'm not sure how anyone could come up with this idea being we have clear scripture to contradict it.

It's not so strange if you take Jesus' words to be a prophecy in this instance.

[RubySera_Martin]

Originally Posted by mee

So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. ..... revelation 12;9 the book of revelation is for our day , we are in the Lords day right now, its all happening in this time of the end. Jesus cast the rebels out of his heavenly goverment because rebels do not work in line with Jehovah and Jesus christ , they are against Gods purpose..... so out they are thrown.

How do you know it happened in 1914?

Jesus lived long before 1914. He said it had already happened back in his day. This seems to call Jesus a liar. I don't think that is what you mean, and this has me seriously puzzled.