The Bible as Astrology

[Nogodnomasters]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Namaste,




thank you for the explanation. it does help to know ones motivation and intent, don't you agree? though, perhaps you can help me here, are you indicating that the only religious text that you have read is the Bible?


I have read the Koran and the Zend Avetsa, Book of Morman Egyptian book of the Dead, sayings of Confucius. book on Kristna (by Kristna followers) Popul Vuh. The Eastern religions I view more as philosophies. They never really interested me, although I do cross paths with them from time to time.



you do realize that we don't actually have the rest of the stories that make your case? when you say "classical" zodiac signs, do you mean western ones or eastern ones? i would presume that you mean western ones, would that be accurate?


Yes Western ones, although there is an Indian flood tale concerning a Crab that would be astrological. My assumption would be their religion or tales/myths is reflective of their own astrology. It is difficult to envision what they actually depicted the constellations as being in some cases. The ancient Arabic and Hebrew names of the stars is the primary means of story comparisons, the constellations are secondary since we can only speculate on them, assuming they were similar to today's. Ptomey documented the constellations of his age about 2000 years ago. They are not that much different from today. Going back an additional 2000 years, one would expect simialrites and differences which is what I have found. There are a few very minor gaps were the astrology is slightly off. At this point we can make an educated guess. This is what one would expect. For instance in classical astrology Casseopia is the wife of Cepheus. I had to make her his killer. I sometimes wonder if this was a joke, or if the intent of the story was to imply the "certain woman" was Ambimelek's wife. The star for Sarah would imply she was a petite red head or strawberry blonde. Astrology adds or hints at details not in the text. Cepheus think Ambimelek starts out up right in the heavens with Polaris, the perfect star as Jotham at its feet. By night's end Cepheus is on his head, overturned by Jotham who is now the upper or ruling portion of the sky. Cepheus is on his head, killed by a smash to his head. The son of King Sargon I (before David/Narhum Sin) is also killed by being smashed in the head. Like Ambimelek, his brother took over the kingdom. All a coincedence? Perhaps. The stars within the constellation also correspond to the various details of the story. There are also large parts of this story that are not astrological. They fit the pattern of an inserted text. When they are removed, the story makes perfect sense and is a lot "cleaner" too. Another explanation? hmmm. I am open to suggestions.

well... off hand, i can think of several other explanations that would be equally valid. one of which, of course, is that it is exactly what it says it is.

Such as? I could debunk one sign, or two connected signs, maybe even 3 or 4 or 5. But 48 constellations and 100s of stars in a contigeous manner in perfect line with the stories is not a coincidence. It is a deliberate pattern that can not be ignored. One could use a chicken/ egg argument and claim astrology was written based on the original text, but then that argument falls under its own weight when one considers the additions made to the OT were because of changed astrology.

do i understand correctly that this statement above accurately represents your undestanding of the Old Testament and New Testament? moreover, that this opinion was arrived at through rigorous study and research which are detailed in your book? furthermore, that you have weighed all other evidence and found it wanting?

Yes. I have gone on line in other forums. I have found negative feedback useful in fine tuning my work, i.e. eliminating anachronisms etc. There are some specific fine points I may be in error, but the theory overall is sound. It fills in a lot of gaps and has less anomolies than our current model. Archaelogists have been crying out for an alternative time line and explanation of the Bible. Mine fits like a glove. The beauty is the original Hebrew words work out best astrologically. I have noted when the English deviates from this translation in order to make some sense, it is because there is an astrological meaning the translators are missing. There are so many small details that fit neatly into the theory, it becomes overwhelming. My editor and other freethinkers who have read my work are astounded by it. We are currently attempting to get a Ph.D and a university endorsement.

Rigorous study? Not hardly. If it was difficult to figure out, I would have never done so. It was so simple and basic I was shocked that no one had done it before. I wrote the book in under a month and the bulk of it in the one week I took off from work. It was a simple matter of comparing the meaning of the Hebrew words in the OT with the meaning of the Arabic names of the stars. Sure, one needed a little background in this area, but the basic information was all on line. I just put it together.


since i view the OT not as an historical document, i see absolutely no reason why it would have to synch up with anything in history. i realize that banannabrain doesn't see it that way, so i'll let him tackle the time line thing.

It is historical fiction. Since the stars predict the future, they must also represent the past. Eden is based on the Babylonian story of Dilmun. Noah is Gilgamish, Nimrod was a latter Babylonian addition. The flood was the Holocene period when the Middle East and the world experienced flooding. Sodom and Gomorah are also historical. Moses is patterned after Sargon I. Pepi II was the pharaoh of Joseph and the first pharaoh over Moses. The astrological David is patterned after Narhum Sin. The David and Solomon court stories and confrontations were added later patterned after Hammurabi. Thutmose III was Shishak. There was no great Iron Age United Monarchy. Archaeology does not support it. The United Mon. was during the MBII period of the great Canaanite city states. It actually spanned several centuries, but was centered on the character of Hammurabi. If you do not consider the OT historical, then it being astrological is not that great of a leap of faith.

as i have said... if you have evidence please present it so that we can review it, evaluate it and see if it meets our standards of acceptance. without evidence to support your statements, it would take a leap of faith for me to believe what you have claimed. i apologize, but i cannot take a leap of faith. my faith is based on my own testing of the evidence presented and my reasoning and logic to determine if it's correct or not.

I have given you evidence. What more can I say? You claim to have other explanations, but do not supply them. The ball is in your court.

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by Nogodnomasters

I have given you evidence. What more can I say? You claim to have other explanations, but do not supply them. The ball is in your court.

namaste,

incorrect. you have provided your theory and your interpetion of evidence of which i am currently unaware. i simply called it what it is, nothing more and nothing less.

in any event... it sounds like a neat theory, i look forward to your publishing and then further disucssion upon this matter will be possible.

[Nogodnomasters]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

namaste,

incorrect. you have provided your theory and your interpetion of evidence of which i am currently unaware. i simply called it what it is, nothing more and nothing less.

in any event... it sounds like a neat theory, i look forward to your publishing and then further disucssion upon this matter will be possible.

How can I give you an interpretation of evidence without giving you evidence?

[Nogodnomasters]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

namaste,

incorrect. you have provided your theory and your interpetion of evidence of which i am currently unaware. i simply called it what it is, nothing more and nothing less.

in any event... it sounds like a neat theory, i look forward to your publishing and then further disucssion upon this matter will be possible.

You make this claim.

"well... off hand, i can think of several other explanations that would be equally valid. one of which, of course, is that it is exactly what it says it is. "

I ask you to back it up.

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by Nogodnomasters

You make this claim.

"well... off hand, i can think of several other explanations that would be equally valid. one of which, of course, is that it is exactly what it says it is. "

I ask you to back it up.

Namaste,

fair enough...

here are several other explanations for the material you have posted.

1. you've made a mistake in interpetation of the texts.

2. you've made a mistake in translation of the texts.

3. you've made a mistake in the process of transferring your knowledge to paper.

4. the texts are absolutely what they claim to be.

5. the texts aren't absolutely what they claim to be and are, instead, metaphor.

6. the astrological conclusions you've come to may be incorrect.

7. whomever determined what the constallations mean may be incorrect.

ad infinitium.

as i said... these are the things that immediately come to my mind, though i am sure that we could have a rational, logical discussion once your book has been published. until that time i'm afraid that all we can do is comment upon the assertions that you've set forth in your postings related to the subject at hand.

as far as i can ascertain, the "facts" you've provided about your theory are the story of Joseph which you've related. however, you make several claims in there that could be correct or incorrect... i realize that you want us to take your word for this, however that will be difficult to do, at least on this forum, without any presented evidence. an interpetation of a story from a (to me, metaphorical) text do not constitute evidence, sorry to say.

as it stands today... i have little reason to believe anything astrologically related.. not least of which because we (Buddhists) are specifically instructed not to engage in this practice because we are not to profit from peoples superstitions. moreover, the astrological assignments that are given in the west for things do not correspond with how things are understood in the east.

for more information on this, you can read the I ching "Book of Change" which details this quite extensively. there are other purposes for the book, however, we shall have to leave that discussion for another time and place.

[Nogodnomasters]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Namaste,

fair enough...

here are several other explanations for the material you have posted.

1. you've made a mistake in interpetation of the texts.

2. you've made a mistake in translation of the texts.

3. you've made a mistake in the process of transferring your knowledge to paper.

4. the texts are absolutely what they claim to be.

5. the texts aren't absolutely what they claim to be and are, instead, metaphor.

6. the astrological conclusions you've come to may be incorrect.

7. whomever determined what the constallations mean may be incorrect.

ad infinitium.

as i said... these are the things that immediately come to my mind, though i am sure that we could have a rational, logical discussion once your book has been published. until that time i'm afraid that all we can do is comment upon the assertions that you've set forth in your postings related to the subject at hand.

as far as i can ascertain, the "facts" you've provided about your theory are the story of Joseph which you've related. however, you make several claims in there that could be correct or incorrect... i realize that you want us to take your word for this, however that will be difficult to do, at least on this forum, without any presented evidence. an interpetation of a story from a (to me, metaphorical) text do not constitute evidence, sorry to say.

as it stands today... i have little reason to believe anything astrologically related.. not least of which because we (Buddhists) are specifically instructed not to engage in this practice because we are not to profit from peoples superstitions. moreover, the astrological assignments that are given in the west for things do not correspond with how things are understood in the east.

or more information on this, you can read the I ching "Book of Change" which details this quite extensively. there are other purposes for the book, however, we shall have to leave that discussion for another time and place.

You really didn't say anything specific and just made general comments.

As far as Translations- I use a Hebrew Lexicon. I use the exact Hebrew translation as pure as I can.

Interpretation of texts? That is what the whole thing is about.

Mistake in Tranferring my knowledge to paper? This is silly. This would account for a copiest error, not an entire theory.

The texts may be what they claim to be. Which is what? The texts make no real claim. They are an interpretation. If what has happened in the text is true, that is not a problem with them also being astrological.

The texts can be a metaphor too. This has nothing to do with their astrological significance. I would claim they are historical fiction, which is the opinion of ledaing researchers.

My astrological conclusions may be incorrect... in general or a specific detail? There are some fine points I can concede on and have the overall theroy still stand.

Who determined what they mean may be incorrect??? Again I do not understand. Various peoples made different interpretations of the stars. They are all not the same. There is no "correct" or incorrect" just similarities of what Ptomey claimed they were and what the Arabs and Hebrews named the stars as compared to the Bible stories and names.

[Thresher]

I also have come across works that tie the Twelve tribes to the stars, Like Witness of the Stars by Bullinger and other things like the zodiac in synagogues and Job. Also something I thought of on my own, but have since seen elsewhere after a woman got me interested in checking out astrology. Everyone's natal chart is different according to the time and place of birth. Mine looks like a Mogen-David or hexagram. But I thought since the Magi were astrologers, and there was no seperation between that and astronomy back then. That they had to have been looking for a certain set of alignments and factors on a chart to follow to the place of the messiah's birth, and not a star billions of light years away shining down like a flashlight on a barn! As far as all religions being a lie, personally after looking at all them and the way the world is. The only conclusion and Ockham's razor principle that makes sense to me. Is that the world and all religions are the same mixture that Adam and Eve partook of, and that they all have truth and lies combined. On the one side it's a you can call me Ray. or you can call me Jay or nothing, I don't care (Matt 4:8,II Cor 4:4, Rev 12:9.)The other side has very stern and specific laws and ordinances, some we can't even keep now. Not that their "done away with." Plus things have been changed and added throughout history. I also don't believe the one power is working with organized groups now, just individuals that are as it says Trying to feel their way towards Him in the darkness. As it also says throughout the scriptures, Yahweh's contention was with the priests. Also His name has been hidden because of misinterpretation of the commandment. Which is a good thing that people aren't calling it out during sex. But in Malachi and other places it shows that HE places importance on it. It's also what led to Jehovah from the use of vowel points. I'm not trying to tick anyone off, it's just the only thing that I've been able to glean from it that makes sense to me.

[I, Brian]

Actually, that's a good point about the Magi of the Nativity. Although generally accepted to be astrologers, there's also an interpretation that they were Diasporean Jews. More specifically, important figures from one or more Jewish communities of Mesopotamia - who would, within a century, have compiled the Babylonian Talmud.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

i think, ngnm, that you and i are using different definitions of "theory".

i use it in the scientific sense, you apparantly do not. i am not sure of your usage of the word nor it's implications, since a scientific theory is completely discarded if any of it is show to be false. if you are already admitting that some of your information may not be correct, you've effectively falseified your own theory... at least from a scientific point of view.

now in truth, your theory did not make any specific predictions, which is part of a proper scientific theory, so that is why i'm presuming that you are not using the word "theory" in the same manner that i am.

i cannot make specific comments as there is no specific data to critique at this time. perforce, i can only make general comments about the claims you are asserting.

if, as you say, the meanings of the astrological signs are different, how do you know that you have chose the right meanings to use? questions of this nature are ones that must be satisfied for readers to understand your point of view.

as for the language... well... some of the Bible was written in Hebrew, this is true. some of the Bible was also written in Aramaic and in Greek, iirc. which leaves us with the "original" language of the Bible in various flavors, not least of which are dialects that would be distinct across geographical regions.

in any event... as i have said on a few occassions, i would be happy to engage in an intelligent disucssion of your theory once it is presented as such, with supporting evidence and all of that.

[Nogodnomasters]

Thresher- I started with the works of Massey and Bullinger, Bullinger however is mostly concerned with the NT not OT. I used his work on the translations of the Arabic names of the stars, however I found his interpretations incorrect. He even got the 12 tribes incorrectly identified.

The ancients considered all religions alike. They worshipped the same god under different names. I believe astrology is the reason for the common links.

The correct signs for the 12 tribes of Jacob:

Aries:Gad
Taurus:Joseph
Gemini: Simeon and Levi
Cancer: Isschar
Leo:Judah
Virgo:Asher
Libra-Dan
Scorpio-Dan
Sagittarius:Naphtali
Capricorn:Benjamin
Aquarius:Reuben
Pisces:Zebulon

Brian-Magi of the nativity is the belt in Orion. An ancient seal in Babylon depicts a similar scene. The Nativity scene is also on the walls of the temple of Luxor.

Vaj- My story ends at the crowning of Solomon. It was all written in Hebrew. This could not have been the original language of the OT. It would have been Phonecian- Canaanite.

[Thresher]

nogodnomasters What is your opinion on horoscopes?
I don't know how, but I know natal charts and even the daily kind can be dead on sometimes. The only explanation I can think of that might explain it other than the their so vague and general, which isn't what I'm talking about. But specific things. Is that seeing we're all just a bunch of bonded atoms. Somehow the different gravtational pulls and effects of the planets may somehow effect us. I neither believe it or disbelieve in it really. But it is eerie sometimes.

[Nogodnomasters]

To put it simply: I do not believe in any way shape or form in horoscopes.

[bananabrain]

so, are you saying that:

astrology is a lie
all religious texts are based on astrology
therefore all religion is a lie

or are you merely saying that everyone apart from you is lying?

maybe i'm lying now.

maybe you're lying.

one thing is sure, quoting huge chunks of Talmud that you don't understand as a "support" certainly doesn't make your argument worth any more than a derisory laugh. quoting a medical textbook doesn't make you a doctor and certainly doesn't qualify you to make informed criticism of surgical procedure.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[The Fool]

Whether someone is or may be lying is an irrelevant and unwelcome distraction from the topic of this post.

The discussion topic is that of interpretating various books of the Bible through astrological subjects.

I expect to see this thread settle into calm and reasoned arguments.

[bananabrain]

you're quite right.

The discussion topic is that of interpreting various books of the Bible through astrological subjects.

in that case, count me out. i thought it was about whether astrology could explain the bible - which it can't without discounting other, more informed explanations of the text, apparently. similarly, my reasonable objections to the spin that nogodnomasters has put on the Talmud to support this specious theory have been ignored in favour of accusing my entire culture of falsehood. vajradhara's entirely reasonable questioning of the logic of the argument has similarly been ignored,

this is a travesty of dialogue and i'm seriously considering whether it's worth me staying on this board if it can't be moderated more effectively. that doesn't mean "everyone has to agree with me", either. it just means that i don't see why jews should wish to engage in dialogue about judaism in an atmosphere of insults and hostility. we are in enough danger in the real world.

b'shalom

bananabrain