Tell me about being Pagan

[enlightenment]

In your own words, please...

Thanks


Steve

[Snoopy]

Paganism, like beauty, seems to be in the eye of the beholder to some extent it seems...

from pagan -- Britannica Concise Encyclopedia - The online encyclopedia you can trust!

"The term pagan was also used to refer to non-Christian philosophers, and in the 20th century it was used to identify members of certain new religious movements.Any religion originating in recent centuries having characteristic traits including eclecticism and syncretism, a leader who claims extraordinary powers, and a “countercultural” aspect.
Regarded as outside the mainstream of society, NRMs in the West are extremely diverse but include millennialist movements (e.g., the Jehovah's Witnesses), Westernized Hindu or Buddhist movements (e.g., the Hare Krishna movement), so-called “scientific” groups (e.g., Scientology), and nature religions (see Neo-Paganism). In the East they include China's 19th-century Taiping movement (see Taiping rebellion) and present-day Falun Gong movement, Japan's Tenrikyo and PL Kyodan, and Korea's Ch'ondogyo and Unification Church. Some NRMs fade away or meet tragic ends; others, such as the Mormon church, eventually become accepted as mainstream."


Can't see much of a common thread...

s.

[enlightenment]

There seems to be a link, deserved or otherwise, between paganism, pagan symbols, and the politics of National Socialism, for some reason?

Odin? That mean anything?

Thaul(sp?)

[Impqueen]

Enlightenment, there are a section of white supremacists who twist northern pagan traditions, rather than twisting Christianity, to fit their messed up ideals. One showed up on the forum on Paganism I'm a member of a while back and it was a shock to see how indoctrinated and narrow and hateful someone can become. The northern traditions often emphasise and revere the ancestors, which is used by these types as a reason to hate those of different ancestry (how one can tell for certain that one is 100% descended from Vikings, I have no idea...). Most Pagans (including, and perhaps especially, those of the northern traditions) view them as scum, same as most Christians view Christian White Supremacists as scum. http://home.earthlink.net/~wodensharrow/hah.html

My take on 'Paganism'...

'Paganism' is an umbrella term for pantheistic or polytheistic religions(and perhaps some other 'theisms' that are not monotheism). Often those modern religions called 'pagan' have a magical element. Some define Paganism simply as any religion that is not Abrahamic but I don't define it this way as it's defining us by what we are not, rather than defining us by what we are. Some define Paganism as 'an earth centred religion' but I know Asatruar who say they don't feel their religion is earth centred (I would agree with them). It's all a bit confusing, even to a Pagan Suffice to say Paganism isn't a religion in itself, but an umbrella term for religions whose followers have decided to term themselves Pagan.

This might help Defining Paganism: Paleo-, Meso-, and Neo-

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Impqueen

This might help Defining Paganism: Paleo-, Meso-, and Neo-

Hey, Impqueen, this was really interesting. thanks!

s.

[InLove]

Very helpful page, Impqueen! I knew some of this (not all, of course), but this article puts the thoughts into words in a very clear way. I liked it so much I copied into a Word doc. so I can keep it for reference.

InPeace,
InLove

[bgruagach]

Impqueen's link is to one of the modern Pagan community's shining lights: Isaac Bonewits.

Bonewits is the founder of the popular Druid group ADF (Ár nDraíocht Féin: A Druid Fellowship) which has its official website at http://www.adf.org

I understand that Bonewits has stepped aside as leader of that group but is still active as an elder.

I agree mostly with Impqueen's definition of Pagan, although I would point out that there are monotheist Pagans too. That's one of the reasons I tend to stick to the simple explanation that Pagans are not Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or atheist.

[enlightenment]

Originally Posted by Impqueen

Enlightenment, there are a section of white supremacists who twist northern pagan traditions, rather than twisting Christianity, to fit their messed up ideals. One showed up on the forum on Paganism I'm a member of a while back and it was a shock to see how indoctrinated and narrow and hateful someone can become. The northern traditions often emphasise and revere the ancestors, which is used by these types as a reason to hate those of different ancestry (how one can tell for certain that one is 100% descended from Vikings, I have no idea...). Most Pagans (including, and perhaps especially, those of the northern traditions) view them as scum, same as most Christians view Christian White Supremacists as scum. http://home.earthlink.net/~wodensharrow/hah.html

My take on 'Paganism'...

'Paganism' is an umbrella term for pantheistic or polytheistic religions(and perhaps some other 'theisms' that are not monotheism). Often those modern religions called 'pagan' have a magical element. Some define Paganism simply as any religion that is not Abrahamic but I don't define it this way as it's defining us by what we are not, rather than defining us by what we are. Some define Paganism as 'an earth centred religion' but I know Asatruar who say they don't feel their religion is earth centred (I would agree with them). It's all a bit confusing, even to a Pagan Suffice to say Paganism isn't a religion in itself, but an umbrella term for religions whose followers have decided to term themselves Pagan.

This might help Defining Paganism: Paleo-, Meso-, and Neo-

Actually, if you really want to confuse the (cough), white supremacists, go onto one of their forums, and actually get into an innocent chat with them about Christinaity, and a strange thing starts to happen.

Those in the UK will claim that Christianity is a 'Jew religion', and not European in origin, and therefore, not 'Aryan'....

Those in the US, they take great offence to that, and the end result, is that these great warriors and thinkers of the WS movement, such as it is, start to argue among one another, really badly!

At that point, I make a coffee, sit back, and watch it all unfold!

[wil]

Originally Posted by enlightenment

Actually, if you really want to confuse the (cough), white supremacists, go onto one of their forums, and actually get into an innocent chat with them about Christinaity, and a strange thing starts to happen.

Those in the UK will claim that Christianity is a 'Jew religion', and not European in origin, and therefore, not 'Aryan'....

Those in the US, they take great offence to that, and the end result, is that these great warriors and thinkers of the WS movement, such as it is, start to argue among one another, really badly!

At that point, I make a coffee, sit back, and watch it all unfold!

I'll bet as a kid you used to put shovels full of the black ants on the red ant hill....

[enlightenment]

Some general questions

1) To be a Christian and pagan would be a contradiction in terms, yes or no? I mean, did the former not essentially sort of steal many pagan festivals, including that of Xmas, not to mention the fact, am I right in saying that in history, Chritians often persecuted pagans, to use the generic term?

2) Bit confused about the Roman thing. As far as I have been lead to believe, the Romans went around doing their thing, conquering this and that, and sort of picked up bits and pieces of all religions, and therefore, they were not Christian, they worshipped many gods, indeed, they had a god for just about anything, is that right?

3) In what nations is Paganism most popular?


4) Do those who are Pagans believe in the power of magic, or are there those that just embrace nature, etc, and reject 'magic', as either folklore, or natural events that have been misunderstood?

Sorry if these questions seem a bit rudamentary, but you have to start someplace!


Steve

[enlightenment]

Originally Posted by wil

I'll bet as a kid you used to put shovels full of the black ants on the red ant hill....

Spooky.

Were you standing behind me!

[bgruagach]

Originally Posted by enlightenment

Some general questions

1) To be a Christian and pagan would be a contradiction in terms, yes or no? I mean, did the former not essentially sort of steal many pagan festivals, including that of Xmas, not to mention the fact, am I right in saying that in history, Chritians often persecuted pagans, to use the generic term?

There are some Pagans who incorporate a lot of Christian material in their specific philosophies. Despite that, I think it is a bit of a contradiction in terms to say that one is a Christian Pagan or a Pagan Christian. Just like Wiccans who draw heavily on Egyptian myth are not really practicing Egyptian religion, but Wicca with an Egyptian emphasis.

If you're interested in blendings of Christianity and Paganism, you'll find a lot in ceremonial magick. The system of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn for instance is a good example. You can also look in pretty much any classical grimoire to find obvious blendings as well.

Originally Posted by enlightenment

2) Bit confused about the Roman thing. As far as I have been lead to believe, the Romans went around doing their thing, conquering this and that, and sort of picked up bits and pieces of all religions, and therefore, they were not Christian, they worshipped many gods, indeed, they had a god for just about anything, is that right?

Yes, the Romans were pretty liberal in adopting all sorts of Pagan religions into their official state religion. And they did persecute the early Christians, before the Roman emperors (and therefore the Roman empire) converted to Christianity. I think the reasons for persecuting the early Christians likely had more to do with politics (i.e. things the Christians were doing, and the Christian tendency to declare that all other religions were false) than any automatic rejection of Christianity necessarily. I'm sure that historians can clear that up much better than I can.

You might be a bit confused about the Roman attitude towards the actual word Pagan though -- it did originate in Rome, but it was used essentially to mean "country bumpkin" and was an insult. Today we use the word to refer to a group of religions without the pejorative overtones.

Originally Posted by enlightenment

3) In what nations is Paganism most popular?

I'm not sure if there are any nations today that are officially Pagan. Paganism is openly tolerated in some places though -- I think Iceland for instance is pretty accepting of Pagan faiths. You'll find all sorts of Pagan religions being practiced in most countries around the world.

The website WitchVox.com provides thousands of listings for Pagan individuals and groups around the world -- at least English-speaking ones. I'm sure it's only a small sample of the numbers that are actually out there. Many Pagans prefer to keep their religious affiliations private in order to protect themselves from those who would do them harm. (There is still a lot of discrimination -- even open violence -- towards religious minorities in many places around the world.)

Originally Posted by enlightenment

4) Do those who are Pagans believe in the power of magic, or are there those that just embrace nature, etc, and reject 'magic', as either folklore, or natural events that have been misunderstood?

Some Pagan religions, such as Wicca, incorporate magick as an inherent part of its system. Others might not consider it inherent, but don't forbid its use among the faithful. Many see magick as essentially the same thing as prayer -- it's a way to ask for things you want or need. Magickal rituals just involve more concerted and conscious efforts to send out the request.

Pagan religions though do not necessarily embrace either magick or nature. Many do, but it's not universal. Some Pagan religions are more scientifically based or at least aware than others. And some are very "mainstream" in many of the attitudes and ideas that are taught -- they just happen to not be Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or atheist and so often get classified as Pagan.

And for the record, I'm Wiccan.

[enlightenment]

Originally Posted by bgruagach

There are some Pagans who incorporate a lot of Christian material in their specific philosophies. Despite that, I think it is a bit of a contradiction in terms to say that one is a Christian Pagan or a Pagan Christian. Just like Wiccans who draw heavily on Egyptian myth are not really practicing Egyptian religion, but Wicca with an Egyptian emphasis.

If you're interested in blendings of Christianity and Paganism, you'll find a lot in ceremonial magick. The system of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn for instance is a good example. You can also look in pretty much any classical grimoire to find obvious blendings as well.



Yes, the Romans were pretty liberal in adopting all sorts of Pagan religions into their official state religion. And they did persecute the early Christians, before the Roman emperors (and therefore the Roman empire) converted to Christianity. I think the reasons for persecuting the early Christians likely had more to do with politics (i.e. things the Christians were doing, and the Christian tendency to declare that all other religions were false) than any automatic rejection of Christianity necessarily. I'm sure that historians can clear that up much better than I can.

You might be a bit confused about the Roman attitude towards the actual word Pagan though -- it did originate in Rome, but it was used essentially to mean "country bumpkin" and was an insult. Today we use the word to refer to a group of religions without the pejorative overtones.



I'm not sure if there are any nations today that are officially Pagan. Paganism is openly tolerated in some places though -- I think Iceland for instance is pretty accepting of Pagan faiths. You'll find all sorts of Pagan religions being practiced in most countries around the world.

The website WitchVox.com provides thousands of listings for Pagan individuals and groups around the world -- at least English-speaking ones. I'm sure it's only a small sample of the numbers that are actually out there. Many Pagans prefer to keep their religious affiliations private in order to protect themselves from those who would do them harm. (There is still a lot of discrimination -- even open violence -- towards religious minorities in many places around the world.)



Some Pagan religions, such as Wicca, incorporate magick as an inherent part of its system. Others might not consider it inherent, but don't forbid its use among the faithful. Many see magick as essentially the same thing as prayer -- it's a way to ask for things you want or need. Magickal rituals just involve more concerted and conscious efforts to send out the request.

Pagan religions though do not necessarily embrace either magick or nature. Many do, but it's not universal. Some Pagan religions are more scientifically based or at least aware than others. And some are very "mainstream" in many of the attitudes and ideas that are taught -- they just happen to not be Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or atheist and so often get classified as Pagan.

And for the record, I'm Wiccan.

Thanks for those answers.

Now, you say you are Wiccan.

Clearly, I could use the internet to give me a flavour of that, yet, I am old fashioned, I would rather just ask you, what is it to be Wiccan, how does it differ from being Pagan, what are your core principles, etc?

[bgruagach]

Originally Posted by enlightenment

Thanks for those answers.

Now, you say you are Wiccan.

Clearly, I could use the internet to give me a flavour of that, yet, I am old fashioned, I would rather just ask you, what is it to be Wiccan, how does it differ from being Pagan, what are your core principles, etc?

Wicca is a modern religion that was first promoted (and perhaps invented) by an Englishman named Gerald Gardner as early as the 1940s. It's based on English witchcraft lore with generous borrowings from ceremonial magick, freemasonry, and classical Pagan sources.

Worship usually focusses on two deities, an evenly matched God and Goddess, who are referred to by various names depending on the group or even specific Wiccan. Autonomy of groups and even individuals is inherent in the system -- we don't have a central authority structure like a Wiccan Pope or Wiccan High Council, and no central scripture. Most Wiccan groups and even individuals have what we call a Book of Shadows which is our personal (and often idiosyncratic) collection of ritual, lore, spell recipes, etc. Material for one's Book of Shadows is often copied from that of one's mentor or initiator but everyone is encouraged to make the Book their own.

Since there isn't a central authority to dictate what must be present to be considered Wiccan, it's hard to identify any idea or practice as mandatory. Many things though are common among Wiccans (such as the idea of worshipping a God and Goddess). One of the common ideas is the ethical statement known as the Wiccan Rede: "An' it harm none, do what you will." It's not a commandment though like those found in other religions; Wiccans see it as a guiding principle, something to strive for.

Many Wiccans also recognize the Thirteen Principles of Wiccan Belief, which were drafted in 1974 by a diverse gathering of American Wiccans. They are listed in many books on Wicca. You can also find them online, including at this helpful website. Personally, I find the Principles to be a pretty good description of my own Wiccan belief.

As a Wiccan, I strive to commune with the Divine as it manifests in all its forms (including in everything in the physical realm -- many Wiccans are panentheists). Working to attain a healthy dynamic balance in all things is another goal. And being based on the lore of witchcraft, magickal work is also very much a part of my practice.

I've got lots more of my own writing about Wicca and witchcraft on my own website at WitchGrotto.com

[enlightenment]

Originally Posted by bgruagach

Wicca is a modern religion that was first promoted (and perhaps invented) by an Englishman named Gerald Gardner as early as the 1940s. It's based on English witchcraft lore with generous borrowings from ceremonial magick, freemasonry, and classical Pagan sources.

Worship usually focusses on two deities, an evenly matched God and Goddess, who are referred to by various names depending on the group or even specific Wiccan. Autonomy of groups and even individuals is inherent in the system -- we don't have a central authority structure like a Wiccan Pope or Wiccan High Council, and no central scripture. Most Wiccan groups and even individuals have what we call a Book of Shadows which is our personal (and often idiosyncratic) collection of ritual, lore, spell recipes, etc. Material for one's Book of Shadows is often copied from that of one's mentor or initiator but everyone is encouraged to make the Book their own.

Since there isn't a central authority to dictate what must be present to be considered Wiccan, it's hard to identify any idea or practice as mandatory. Many things though are common among Wiccans (such as the idea of worshipping a God and Goddess). One of the common ideas is the ethical statement known as the Wiccan Rede: "An' it harm none, do what you will." It's not a commandment though like those found in other religions; Wiccans see it as a guiding principle, something to strive for.

Many Wiccans also recognize the Thirteen Principles of Wiccan Belief, which were drafted in 1974 by a diverse gathering of American Wiccans. They are listed in many books on Wicca. You can also find them online, including at this helpful website. Personally, I find the Principles to be a pretty good description of my own Wiccan belief.

As a Wiccan, I strive to commune with the Divine as it manifests in all its forms (including in everything in the physical realm -- many Wiccans are panentheists). Working to attain a healthy dynamic balance in all things is another goal. And being based on the lore of witchcraft, magickal work is also very much a part of my practice.

I've got lots more of my own writing about Wicca and witchcraft on my own website at WitchGrotto.com

Interesting.

Didnt think it was as new as the 40's.

Thinking out loud here, I wonder, if you and I, as a social experiment, and for whatever motive, went off and created a new religion, borrowing here and there, from this and that, adding our own bits and pieces, I wonder how long it would take before such a thing would take off...

Anyway, tell me more about these spells.

Give me an example of one, an uncomplicated one, that someone could put to the test.

Do you beleive these spells work?

Must you have faith for them to work, or can they work with no particular faith...?