Tell me about being Pagan

[bgruagach]

Originally Posted by enlightenment

Interesting.

Didnt think it was as new as the 40's.

Thinking out loud here, I wonder, if you and I, as a social experiment, and for whatever motive, went off and created a new religion, borrowing here and there, from this and that, adding our own bits and pieces, I wonder how long it would take before such a thing would take off...

Anyway, tell me more about these spells.

Give me an example of one, an uncomplicated one, that someone could put to the test.

Do you beleive these spells work?

Must you have faith for them to work, or can they work with no particular faith...?

Witchcraft has been around forever but Wicca, which is a specific religion drawing on witchcraft lore, is relatively new. Some people claim Wicca is an ancient religion but so far the historical record hasn't backed that up.

If you're interested in new religious systems or groups you don't have to speak hypothetically about it -- there are new groups springing up all the time. Within the modern Pagan community there are new Wiccan denominations being started up all the time. Some draw on historical material, while others are openly new creations apart from some basic Wiccan ideas and practices which they've adopted. There are also all sorts of other Pagan religions outside the Wiccan framework which are new.

One of the key signs that a particular religious system might survive in the long run is whether it continues despite the loss of its founder (either the founder dies or moves out of the leadership role.) Gardnerian Wicca is a perfect example -- Gerald Gardner died in the 1960s, yet his Wiccan denomination is still going strong. Alexandrian Wicca is another example. It was founded in the 1960s by Alex Sanders. Sanders died in 1988. There are plenty of Alexandrian covens still operating quite happily around the world.

On the Druid side of things we have groups like Isaac Bonewits' ADF, which he founded in 1983. That group is still doing well despite the fact that Bonewits has stepped out of the leadership role.

From a more magickal point of view (as opposed to a more religious one) the loose magickal system known as Chaos Magick and groups related to it such as the TOPY came into being in the 1980s and are still pretty popular. They are very loosely organized and seem to have staying power despite not having an authoritarian hierarchy to dictate dogma to followers.

With regard to spells, I do believe they can work, but in the same way that prayers can work. It also depends what you call a spell. For instance, some would say that drinking a specially prepared herbal tea to help get over a cold is a spell, while others would say you're practicing herbal medicine. In the case of a herbal medicine even if it's administered as part of a spell its effectiveness might not have anything to do with the belief of those involved. A spell that involves chanting certain words though might not have much effect without belief.

Some types of spells are attempts to develop or employ psychic talents. If that's the type of thing you're interested in, I'd suggest you check out the articles at PsiPog.net : Science is Evolving as they provide a good foundation in psychic work but without any particular religious overtones.

[Impqueen]

I heard Asatru was an official religion in Iceland, alongside Christianity.

Personally I think magic is unlikely to work if you don't believe that it will. It's not just a matter of doing the actions, but focusing will or energy. I don't do it very often at all. The things one tends to do spells for are rather unmeasurable... for example one of the few spells I have ever done was to bring my dad's company some success. A while later he is enjoying a period of success, but there's no way of showing that my spell had anything to do with it. Luck and/or his determination are just as likely to be the reasons, if not more so. I rather like the book Spells and How they Work by Janet and Stuart Farrar.

Psipog rocks, shame it has become just an archive site.

[enlightenment]

Originally Posted by bgruagach

Witchcraft has been around forever but Wicca, which is a specific religion drawing on witchcraft lore, is relatively new. Some people claim Wicca is an ancient religion but so far the historical record hasn't backed that up.

If you're interested in new religious systems or groups you don't have to speak hypothetically about it -- there are new groups springing up all the time. Within the modern Pagan community there are new Wiccan denominations being started up all the time. Some draw on historical material, while others are openly new creations apart from some basic Wiccan ideas and practices which they've adopted. There are also all sorts of other Pagan religions outside the Wiccan framework which are new.

One of the key signs that a particular religious system might survive in the long run is whether it continues despite the loss of its founder (either the founder dies or moves out of the leadership role.) Gardnerian Wicca is a perfect example -- Gerald Gardner died in the 1960s, yet his Wiccan denomination is still going strong. Alexandrian Wicca is another example. It was founded in the 1960s by Alex Sanders. Sanders died in 1988. There are plenty of Alexandrian covens still operating quite happily around the world.

On the Druid side of things we have groups like Isaac Bonewits' ADF, which he founded in 1983. That group is still doing well despite the fact that Bonewits has stepped out of the leadership role.

From a more magickal point of view (as opposed to a more religious one) the loose magickal system known as Chaos Magick and groups related to it such as the TOPY came into being in the 1980s and are still pretty popular. They are very loosely organized and seem to have staying power despite not having an authoritarian hierarchy to dictate dogma to followers.

With regard to spells, I do believe they can work, but in the same way that prayers can work. It also depends what you call a spell. For instance, some would say that drinking a specially prepared herbal tea to help get over a cold is a spell, while others would say you're practicing herbal medicine. In the case of a herbal medicine even if it's administered as part of a spell its effectiveness might not have anything to do with the belief of those involved. A spell that involves chanting certain words though might not have much effect without belief.

Some types of spells are attempts to develop or employ psychic talents. If that's the type of thing you're interested in, I'd suggest you check out the articles at PsiPog.net : Science is Evolving as they provide a good foundation in psychic work but without any particular religious overtones.

Right, I added that to my fav's, for later reading.

Some other random questions.


1) Do Wiccans have any views or leanings on the subject of eating meat?

2) Do Wiccans, in general, beleive in ghosts, or a heaven and a hell, in some form or another?

3) What are your views on Buddism?

4) Do Wiccans have a general view about life on other planets?

[bgruagach]

Originally Posted by Impqueen

I heard Asatru was an official religion in Iceland, alongside Christianity.

Different Pagan religious groups have had varying degrees of success being legally recognized in a number of places around the world. I know there are a surprising number in the United States, for instance. It's usually just a matter of registering the group as a tax-exempt religious group for instance in some places.

I don't know of any countries though that declare a Pagan religion to be the official religion of the country.

Originally Posted by Impqueen

Personally I think magic is unlikely to work if you don't believe that it will. It's not just a matter of doing the actions, but focusing will or energy. I don't do it very often at all. The things one tends to do spells for are rather unmeasurable... for example one of the few spells I have ever done was to bring my dad's company some success. A while later he is enjoying a period of success, but there's no way of showing that my spell had anything to do with it. Luck and/or his determination are just as likely to be the reasons, if not more so. I rather like the book Spells and How they Work by Janet and Stuart Farrar.

Psipog rocks, shame it has become just an archive site.

I agree that many spells are a matter of focussing energies and what is essentially psychic abilities. And many spells really are just fancied-up prayers, so belief would be necessary for them as well. (Oh, and for those looking up the book Impqueen mentioned, the author's names are Janet and Stewart Farrar. Lots of people misspell Stewart's name.)

There are lots of great books available on doing spellwork. I just saw one by Judika Iles in the store the other day. It's called "Pure Magic: A Complete Course in Spellcasting" and if it's like her excellent "Encyclopedia of 5000 Spells" it should be good.

I also really liked Nancy B. Watson's "Practical Magic" as it's a solid nonsectarian introduction to magickal work.

[bgruagach]

Originally Posted by enlightenment

1) Do Wiccans have any views or leanings on the subject of eating meat?

2) Do Wiccans, in general, beleive in ghosts, or a heaven and a hell, in some form or another?

3) What are your views on Buddism?

4) Do Wiccans have a general view about life on other planets?

There's a saying that if you ask a dozen Wiccans a question, you're likely to get fifteen different answers. With no central authority structure you'll find that there are always disagreements and exceptions to any statement that starts "Wiccans believe..." or "Wiccans do..."

There are some Wiccans who are vegetarians of some variety or another, but there are many who are not. There is no specific diet that is generally prescribed among Wiccan denominations (although it wouldn't surprise me if there were a few out there that did.)

Many Wiccans do believe in what are essentially invisible realms and invisible beings. However, it's not a required belief so I expect there are some Wiccans who don't believe in what is not provable in the physical realm. Many Wiccans believe in a form of reincarnation (with lots of variation on how it's explained) with some sort of otherworld that is used either as a resting place between incarnations on the physical, or else as a permanent home once a soul is done with physical incarnations. But again it's not necessarily a universal Wiccan belief. We generally don't believe in hell specifically -- we see the other realm more like a different version of the physical one, where we make it a personal heaven or hell depending on our viewpoint and efforts. Tied in to that it is very common (but again not universal) for Wiccans to believe in some variation of the Karma idea.

I don't know enough about Buddhism to be able to comment on it, or how it might relate to Wicca. I'm sure there are some Wiccans who can, and probably some Wiccans who incorporate Buddhism into their Wiccan practice.

Life on other planets isn't a topic that I've really seen discussed among Wiccans apart from the typical discussions that any random group of people might have on the topic. Many Wiccans are actually very interested or involved in science and technology (lots of us work in IT or in the medical or education fields for instance) so discussions about life on other planets would tend to reflect that. But there is no real standard dogma on it.

[Impqueen]

Originally Posted by bgruagach

Lots of people misspell Stewart's name.

Oopsie

Originally Posted by bgruagach

There are lots of great books available on doing spellwork. I just saw one by Judika Iles in the store the other day. It's called "Pure Magic: A Complete Course in Spellcasting" and if it's like her excellent "Encyclopedia of 5000 Spells" it should be good.

I also really liked Nancy B. Watson's "Practical Magic" as it's a solid nonsectarian introduction to magickal work.

I'll have to look those up. Great, my amazon wishlist shall grow yet more....

[bgruagach]

Originally Posted by Impqueen

I'll have to look those up. Great, my amazon wishlist shall grow yet more....

I made a mistake too in that post... Nancy B. Watson's book is called "Practical Solitary Magic."

[morningstar2651]

Originally Posted by enlightenment

Some general questions

1) To be a Christian and pagan would be a contradiction in terms, yes or no? I mean, did the former not essentially sort of steal many pagan festivals, including that of Xmas, not to mention the fact, am I right in saying that in history, Chritians often persecuted pagans, to use the generic term?

2) Bit confused about the Roman thing. As far as I have been lead to believe, the Romans went around doing their thing, conquering this and that, and sort of picked up bits and pieces of all religions, and therefore, they were not Christian, they worshipped many gods, indeed, they had a god for just about anything, is that right?

3) In what nations is Paganism most popular?


4) Do those who are Pagans believe in the power of magic, or are there those that just embrace nature, etc, and reject 'magic', as either folklore, or natural events that have been misunderstood?

Sorry if these questions seem a bit rudamentary, but you have to start someplace!


Steve

Please don't apologize for asking. I'll gladly answer your questions.

1) This is a hotly debated topic within Paganism. My opinion is that one can be a Christian with Pagan influences or a Pagan with Christian influences, but not entirely both religions at once.

2) The Roman Empire was Christianized before its fall. History books go into much more depth than I can here. Gibbon's The History of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire ought to be available online. Chapters 15, 16, 20, and 21 are relevant, if my memory serves me well. It's long (12 volumes), so you might not want to read all of it unless you have more than a passing interest in history. The chapters I mentioned should all be contained within volume 3.

3) I don't know. That depends on how we define Pagan. Defining what does and does not qualify as a member of a specific religious category can be a dangerous business.

4) Not all Pagans revere nature, and not all Pagans practice magic. Additionally, most practitioners of magic consider magic to be natural, rather than supernatural.