Sympathy makes Trouble ?

[Tao_Equus]

If there was less sympathy in the world, there would be less trouble in the world. Oscar Wilde.

I came across this quote and it stopped me. I must admit that as I ponder it that I can think of instances where some do apply sympathy where what is needed is cold realism. Sympathy has it's place of course but as in the thread "Allowing child molesters in church?", sympathy seemed to be expressed to those that in my opinion deserved none.

It is a delicate question to be sure. The boundary line between Christian forgiveness, for example, and sympathy for the individual seems to me to be blurred. The nuance so fine as to oftentimes defeat my perception.

So, anyone care to offer their interpratation of the quote? And to give me some way to more clearly define the difference between religious forgivness and personal sympathy?

Of course I'd welcome socio/political interpratations and examples too.

TE

[Dondi]

To forgive someone is one thing, and that might be as much to the benefit for the forgiver as well as the one being forgiven, but trust has to be proven. If they want sympathy, they must be willing to show why they deserve it.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Dondi

To forgive someone is one thing, and that might be as much to the benefit for the forgiver as well as the one being forgiven, but trust has to be proven. If they want sympathy, they must be willing to show why they deserve it.

That is just my point. There seems to be little separation at times between forgiveness and sympathy and trust seems to often be given before it is earned. So do the 'sympathetic' confuse one with the other?

[wil]

Could it be if we didn't have others to be sympathetic of our plight whatever it may be we would all be more self-reliant, take more personal responsibility for the foibles we so conveniently find ourselves in?

ie if there isn't someone always there to bail you out, you need bailing out a lot less.

My wife and I were blessed with twins. Frequently they would both be in need, changing, holding, consoling....whatever. Even if it wasn't a simultaneous need, once one started it would quickly become that way. But most of the time there was only one of us home, so one would have to fuss while the other was attended to. So our kids learned that things don't happen instantly and they don't get picked up with every little cry or fuss. They got plenty of love...but had to wait there turn.

End result from my limited observance, they quickly understood this phenomenon, and didn't act out/act up as much as many of the singletons around us....and we didn't jump near as fast as other parents...our kids started being self reliant and solving problems without us...ie if one was fussin the other would just steal the bottle or toy during the misdirection.

Case in point...maybe?

[Tao_Equus]

Ty Wil,

Yes a very good point and perspective. Could well be what Oscar was trying to say. You put it so well that there is not much I can say to it really. Other than I agree. Grats on having twins tho!! That must be a special pleasure all of its own, double trouble!!

TE

[Francis king]

yes, oftentimes sympathy and forgiveness can be feebleness, excuses, ways to sublimate and oppress, when what is needed, sometimes, is aggression, change, revolt, refusal to back down, intolerance, rather than tolerance... if we simply forgive and forget, then nothing changes and nobody learns anything, so yes, if there was less sympathy then maybe there would be less trouble...

da dahh

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Francis king

yes, oftentimes sympathy and forgiveness can be feebleness, excuses, ways to sublimate and oppress, when what is needed, sometimes, is aggression, change, revolt, refusal to back down, intolerance, rather than tolerance... if we simply forgive and forget, then nothing changes and nobody learns anything, so yes, if there was less sympathy then maybe there would be less trouble...

da dahh

Sometimes there needs to be a little sarcasm smiley or something... to avoid confusion.

A while back I seem to remember reading someone who said that sympathy is a quick killer, or something along those lines. I think her point was that when a person is overindulged with sympathy, the motivation to rise above can dwindle--basically what wil said through his post. Currently I am about half-way through the movie Ray. In this movie, Ray Charles's mother has to restrain herself from doing for her son as he loses his sight, in order to empower him to learn to navigate his world without sight. Clearly a struggle for her, it also reveals the depth of her love for her son and the adversity that she knows he will face in life. Knowing that she will not always be there to do for him, she allows him to struggle in those moments, so that he will be strong and independent later on.

Which brings up the perspective that sympathy is not very constructive for anyone. Although sympathy is sometimes called for and needed, it is not an empowering sort of response. It is often accompanied by a disempowering "let me do this for you" type of action, rather than a "what do you need to do now" or "what will help you get back on your feet" response--empathetic and empowering, not sympathetic and disempowering.

At the same time, Francis's sarcastic (I think...?) point is well-founded, too. We shouldn't equate being kind, forgiving, or peaceful with being (overly) sympathetic, and swing to an extreme of toughness and hardness, or even aggression.

My thoughts...

[Tao_Equus]

Balance as ever!! Nice post Pathless

[Sunny C.]

We should differentiate between sympathy and empathy.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Sunny C.

We should differentiate between sympathy and empathy.

I had same thought reading Wil's post.

[amellcheney]

one thing that bothers me is and I am not asking for sympathy. A few years ago we had a house fire and lost everything. We scraped 1400 dollars got a new place and began life over again. It was rough no doubt, but I think if I would have depended on others to get us out of the circumstance I would not have appreciated it as much when I did get back on my feet.

I see some of the same people on welfare year after year and complain about everything such as how small their check is, the amount their food stamps, health benefits etc and yet these same people refuse to get jobs or training.
I understand some people need help but I thought it was a temporary help and not a generation thing. Having been a cashier in a grocery store for years I have seen many many people with food stamps and the food they purchase and was often appalled about the amount of foods stamps they got every month along with checks subsidized housing, help with utilities, medical care etc. I work 40+ hours a week and don't have the budget some of these folks have, if I need dental care I pay 50% before I can get dental care, 25 for a Dr visit.
The low cost housing here parking lots are filled with newer cars, while the working class area has older cars. I have a niece with two kids that lives in one of these lost cost areas and she pays 12 a month rent no utilities gets 512 a months food stamps, wic for the kids and a check for 484 a month and is driving a 2 year old car while mind is 12 years old but paid for. She is unwed with two different fathers and is now expecting another baby from another man so her check will go up and so will the food stamps and now she has no incentive to get off welfare. Her mother my ex sister-in-laaw has been on welfare since she divorced my brother 15 years ago, but of course she had to have welfare because she was a single parent. Now I have worked since I was 16 received no welfare and I am 51 years and have been a single parent since 1982. I saved 4 years to get the dental work I needed paid cash for new glasses minus 50% of course, I certainly don't spend 512 a month on food although I have my daughter and her two boys staying with me. Tonight as I ate dinner and watched a bit of the boob tube with a 8 year old trying to give me a wet Willie while giggling uncontrollably I thought how lucky am I? I have two daughters who have never been on welfare, have put themselves through college and had a mom who showed them that hard work is worth it in the long run, and two hardheaded boys who plan on college one day.
Just my little rant.

nita

[Tao_Equus]

Layabouts!!! Lets drag em to the saltmines!!!!

[wil]

Originally Posted by amellcheney

one thing that bothers me is and I am not asking for sympathy.

Of all the stuff you talk about...folks being on the dole for generations, the lack of will to work, new cars in the projects lot, your dedication to 'boot strap' thinking despite whatever comes around, the inclination and dedication not to get on the dole...

Isn't it amazing how fortunate some of us are? I am absolutely certain that fire was devastating to you, and that there are heirlooms both large and small that are gone forever...but I read in your story the amazing resilience you and your family have...and also am certain that you learned and grew an incredible amount from the experience...as did those around you when they watched your reaction to leaving the past behind and moving forward with your life.

Now we know others could have had that same experience and gone on to blame the world and continue to relive it today, woa is me... You've proved yet again it is not what happens to us that is important, but how we react to it.