Symbols

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all...

i am curious what our Christian friends think of the symbology of the flaming sword that guards the gate to Eden after Adam and Eve were expelled.

in my tradition, swords symboloize wisdom, especially flaming swords. is there an inate tradition of this within the Christian paradigm?

[Vajradhara]

bump for more input

[Phi]

Originally Posted by Vajradhara

Namaste all...

i am curious what our Christian friends think of the symbology of the flaming sword that guards the gate to Eden after Adam and Eve were expelled.

in my tradition, swords symboloize wisdom, especially flaming swords. is there an inate tradition of this within the Christian paradigm?

There are several places in the Bible where swords from the mouth are mentioned. Among others
Ps. 57:4 "their tongue is a sharp sword"
Jer. 12:12 "the sword of the lord shall devour"
Rev 1:16 & 19:15 "out of his mouth went a sharp sword"

Interesting question comes to my mind: Does anyone think that the well known words "he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword" might be applied to words that kill the spirit as well as weapons?

[achnai]

Originally Posted by Phi

There are several places in the Bible where swords from the mouth are mentioned. Among others
Ps. 57:4 "their tongue is a sharp sword"
Jer. 12:12 "the sword of the lord shall devour"
Rev 1:16 & 19:15 "out of his mouth went a sharp sword"

Interesting question comes to my mind: Does anyone think that the well known words "he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword" might be applied to words that kill the spirit as well as weapons?

For Judaism there is an emphasis on controlling and moderating the use of words in order to avoid hurting our friends in any possible way through misuse of words.
There is a specific book composed by Rabbi Israel Meir H'cohen from Radin called "Hafetz Haim" which deals with exegesis regarding what is right and what is forbidden speech according to the Halacha. "Hafetz Haim" means "he that desireth life", its from the Bible:

"What man desireth life, and loveth many days, that he may see good? Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile". (Psalms 34/12-13).

This book is studied in most of the ultra-orthodox Yeshivot - each day of the year has it's own page of the book until they finish to study it all and therewith starting to study it afresh in the first day of the beginning next year and so on.

[Phi]

Originally Posted by achnai

For Judaism there is an emphasis on controlling and moderating the use of words in order to avoid hurting our friends in any possible way through misuse of words.
There is a specific book composed by Rabbi Israel Meir H'cohen from Radin called "Hafetz Haim" which deals with exegesis regarding what is right and what is forbidden speech according to the Halacha. "Hafetz Haim" means "he that desireth life", its from the Bible: This book is studied in most of the ultra-orthodox Yeshivot - each day of the year has it's own page of the book until they finish to study it all and therewith starting to study it afresh in the first day of the beginning next year and so on.

Thank you for your response. My comments are so often not responded to, that I especially appreciate it when they are.
Does it teach that "he who causes people to be killed by the (s)word of his mouth will be killed by the (s)word of another's mouth?" Or any paraphrase of this idea? I guess that was what I meant, although your answer that we should not speak with guile is true, does it say what the reward of that speech is?

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, All!

Since the imagery being discussed has to do with swords, I would like to include my favorite:

"For the Word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." -Hebrews 4:12, Companion Bible

*footnote: I italicize to properly quote, but one must understand that italicized words in the KJV (and Companion) are inserted by the original translators to make it flow better in English. Italicized words are not for emphasis, as is commonly taught currently in English grammar.

My Strong's Concordance lists almost two pages of references to the use of the word "sword", and 24 more that reference "swords". Most are of actual swords. I am not fully certain of the symbology, but it would seem to me an element of power, not unlike the horn in pagan (and Biblical) tradition.

I do think there is an interesting wordplay between the words "sword" and "word." It gets a lot of attention in certain circles.

[achnai]

Originally Posted by Phi

Thank you for your response. My comments are so often not responded to, that I especially appreciate it when they are.
Does it teach that "he who causes people to be killed by the (s)word of his mouth will be killed by the (s)word of another's mouth?" Or any paraphrase of this idea? I guess that was what I meant, although your answer that we should not speak with guile is true, does it say what the reward of that speech is?

Dear Phi
It is my pleasure replying to your posts and questions.

According to the "Hafetz Haim"(in Judaism the Rabbis are often named after the books they write) it is assumed that one does not intentionally do what he knows to be contarary to the Halacha.
If however a person commits trangression he must repent.
The punishment can be circumstantial in this world, or after he dies, that is in his afterlife. It does not have to be a mutial repercussion of his own specific transgression.
The idea of punishment is not as to scare people off, but to reflect the gravity of either sinning to G!D or sinning towards your fellow men, both being the types of sin possible in Judaism.

Kindest Regards

Achnai

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Phi!

Originally Posted by Phi

Thank you for your response. My comments are so often not responded to, that I especially appreciate it when they are.
Does it teach that "he who causes people to be killed by the (s)word of his mouth will be killed by the (s)word of another's mouth?" Or any paraphrase of this idea? I guess that was what I meant, although your answer that we should not speak with guile is true, does it say what the reward of that speech is?

I realize your question was addressed to another, but if you will humor me...

"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints." -Revelations 13:10 Companion Bible.

The context places it at the time of the troubles, and it is a warning to those who have chosen to forebear through it, that the forebearance must be done in a passive manner. Active resistance is counterproductive, especially during this time, because these things must come about to be fulfilled. My opinion, anyway.

[juantoo3]

Interesting question comes to my mind: Does anyone think that the well known words "he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword" might be applied to words that kill the spirit as well as weapons?

I've had this stewing in my mind for a few hours, and I can't help but come away with a sense of conflict between symbolic and literal. I accept there are both symbolic and literal meanings throughout the Bible, occasionally even both. Which is why I strive to keep quotes within the context they are written. I have always viewed this specific quote as literal, pertaining to the time prophecied. So I guess what I would need clarified in the question is whether or not a literal death of spirit (and presumably death of body) is implied. Killing with a word, presumably carried out by those specifically instructed to passively resist, seems to me an inappropriate translation of what is intended, not to mention seemingly impossible. Now, I can see a possibility implied of symbolic death of spirit, that is, causing a loss of heart and disillusionment, but even that is not the goal or intent of those spoken of. Rather, this would be that predicted elsewhere of the apostates, that believe themselves to be doing "right," but are in fact, not. Those who claim "have we not cast out devils in thy name?", to which Messiah replies, "get away from me, I never knew you."
I am prepared to be mistaken, but this is my take on the matter.

[Phi]

[quote=juantoo3]I've had this stewing in my mind for a few hours, and I can't help but come away with a sense of conflict between symbolic and literal. I accept there are both symbolic and literal meanings throughout the Bible, occasionally even both. Which is why I strive to keep quotes within the context they are written. I have always viewed this specific quote as literal, pertaining to the time prophecied. So I guess what I would need clarified in the question is whether or not a literal death of spirit (and presumably death of body) is implied. Killing with a word, presumably carried out by those specifically instructed to passively resist, seems to me an inappropriate translation of what is intended, not to mention seemingly impossible. Now, I can see a possibility implied of symbolic death of spirit, that is, causing a loss of heart and disillusionment, but even that is not the goal or intent of those spoken of. ]

There are several ways to kill the spirit with words, without killing the body such as extreme verbal abuse of small children or any loved one under the abuser's care.
Another way that one might kill the spirit with words is to brainwash a person until their spirit is no longer able to see clearly: many cults have been accused of this.
Yet another would be to lead a spirit from an early age away from the Holy Spirit, such that he or she might be kept from truth by indoctrination.
And did not Pilate give a word, a go ahead even though he did not hammer a nail? So this would be an example of killing with a word both body and spirit.

[Rather, this would be that predicted elsewhere of the apostates, that believe themselves to be doing "right," but are in fact, not. Those who claim "have we not cast out devils in thy name?", to which Messiah replies, "get away from me, I never knew you."
[/QUOTE

This I agree, but like the Pharasees and Saducees of old, some of the "most righteous" may be equally apostate, and all the more powerful due to their influence and the respect given them, in the killing of spirit.

[Phi]

I suppose that you could say that the apostate spirit will, in the end, be "killed" by the word of truth from the words "I never knew you."

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Phi!

Originally Posted by Phi

I suppose that you could say that the apostate spirit will, in the end, be "killed" by the word of truth from the words "I never knew you."

True, but this is not that implied by the specific verse mentioned (Rev. 13:10). I accept your premise, but I feel you are reaching for the verses to support it, by taking out of context, at least in this specific instance. I feel like I am coming across as scolding, and I assure I am not. I merely see a misapplied understanding of the specific verse, as the verse is not directed to or about the "Word of Truth," it is directed specifically at the overcomers.

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Phi

There are several ways to kill the spirit with words, without killing the body such as extreme verbal abuse of small children or any loved one under the abuser's care.
Another way that one might kill the spirit with words is to brainwash a person until their spirit is no longer able to see clearly: many cults have been accused of this.
Yet another would be to lead a spirit from an early age away from the Holy Spirit, such that he or she might be kept from truth by indoctrination.

Perhaps the difference in our views is semantic, I view these as figurative or symbolic. There are no less real ramifications, but in a real sense it is not the spirit that is "killed", rather the individual will is suppressed. As a figure of speech, we call that "killing the spirit." Such is the nature of symbology, it serves as a substitute for the purpose of understanding and illustration, and in the grandest examples can become a personal reality, but symbolism is by its nature a surrogate for reality.

And did not Pilate give a word, a go ahead even though he did not hammer a nail? So this would be an example of killing with a word both body and spirit.

Now, this gets into power and politics. Since those addressed by Rev. 13:10 are fleeing persecution by the hand of politics, there is a definite distinction of application. So while in point of fact you are correct, again it is not the status or position of those being addressed by Rev. 13:10 to be able to "kill with a word", unless they were of a terrorist mind, in which case they are specifically warned not to exercise that inclination.

This I agree, but like the Pharasees and Saducees of old, some of the "most righteous" may be equally apostate, and all the more powerful due to their influence and the respect given them, in the killing of spirit.

Absolutely correct (but not limited to "Jewish" religious leaders, all will partake), and these are in the positions of power, and would hold the authority to administer death "by a word." My money would be on them cooperating with the A/C-government-religion, either knowingly or unknowingly, wittingly or unwittingly.

[Phi]

Juantoo, it is often the case that words are taken out of context, I do agree with you there. However this one was not first taken out of context by yours truly , but has been taken out of context by so many for so long that there are truly few that bother to check context for this well-known saying. Thus the saying has been for centuries utilized as a stand-alone "word of truth," and although I do not personally see it that way, so many do, that it seemed quite appropriate to respond to it as it is actually used by most people, and not just "as written in context" here.
I did research the context previously, and again just a short time ago, after a Christian told me that if one of my beloved twin stepsons, who was serving in Iraq at the time, got killed, it was because of that very verse that he "should have known better than to live by the sword." He felt he had every right to say this to me, and so he did:it is a right for which, among other rights, many soldiers died. It was very hurtful to me worried as I was, and stunned me, so it was not until later that I wished I had told him to "live by the word, so he did not die by it."

[Phi]

Juantoo3: In re:
[these are in the positions of power, and would hold the authority to administer death "by a word." My money would be on them cooperating with the A/C-government-religion, either knowingly or unknowingly, wittingly or unwittingly.
Hmmmm, the A/C-government-religion? ( Is that a battery by Delco? )
Are we a little off topic here?? Is this paranoia regarding current politics??? Orrrrrr.....
But then I did mention Revelations...If you want to go there with me, maybe it's time for a new thread?