Sunni vs Shi'a

[I, Brian]

It's hard not to watch the news these days and see a story about Sunnis and Shi'as murdering each other in Iraq.

What I'd like to ask is how both Sunni and Shi'a members here regard the other - is it a case of one being absolutely heretical, or is it more a case of misguided but otherwise welcome brothers and sisters?

Also - how do you feel personally about the deaths of Sunnis by Shi'as and Shi'as by Sunnis in Iraq?

[Nusaybah]

I think you raising quite a controversial topic here. The difference between sunnis and shia's is more of a political one, We should however be able to unite on out similarities, and accept each others differences. Obviously any sort of killing is wrong regardless of whether their a sunni, shia, christian or a Jew.

"If anyone slew an innocent person it would be as if he slew the whole mankind and if anyone saved a life it would be as if he saved the life of the whole mankind"
[Al-Qur’an 5:32]

[aburaees]

When I first started out in Islam I guess I would have called myself a Sunni in the general sense of the word. A brother kept telling me that I should choose a Manhaj (school of thought) to stick to, and he was suggesting the Hanafi manhaj. He was saying that as the Hanafi manhaj was the majority they represented the ahl ul-sunnah wa al-jamma'at. I told him that the majority opinion wasn't neccessarily the correct opinion - if it was I would have remained Christian.
I then tended towards the Salafi view a little later, assuming that Mecca and Medina (especially Medina) would always remain under the dominion of the correct sect (as per the Hadith about "faith returns to al-Medina like a snake returns to it's hole", or something like that). Also preferring that "everything" I praticed was referenced in either the Qur'an or As-Sahih Sittah (the six authentic collections of Hadith).

I then started to hold an open mind concerning the Shia Ithna-Ashari school of thought, knowing that Islam teaches an eventual reconcilliation of all sects. I considered that for all the different sects to be united, each of them would have to give ground on something for it to work unless there was a universally accepted leader at the time like Al-Mahdi or 'Isaa.
The difficulty is that most Sunnis consider Hadith collections like Bukhari and Muslim to be near 100% authentic, but Shias do not. Whereas you can pretty much always show a Sunni a Hadith from Bukhari as a proof or an evidence, you can't always show a Shia a Hadith from Bukhari and expect that they agree with it.
On some matters I tend to agree that the Shias have a point over the Sunnis, and vice-versa

It might have started out as a political difference but nowadays there are important doctrinal differences. Mainly the matter of succession being divinely appointed before Muhammad's passing, or being divinely left to our discretion after Muhammad's passing. There's also the differences over matters like temporary marriages and how to pray and such. I went to a Shia masjid once and discovered that I DID NOT know how to pray with them, Has anyone else tried both? I know that Shias will pray in a Sunni masjid if they have no other choice, but I'm not sure how readily the reverse happens.

My opinion on Shias and Sunnis killing eachother (Muslims Vs Muslims) is that they fall into the category of those mentioned in the Hadith stating that when a Muslim kills another Muslim in a fight, they BOTH are committing a sin as the killed would surely have intended to kill the killer.
Is everyone familiar with this Hadith??
It's a pity that when Ali and Aisha sent their armies out to meet eachother, many Muslims would have died that day doing exactly what the Hadith condemned.

For the future, I think that the authenticity of the Hadiths should be challenged AGAIN. There's a principle in Islam that it's people will not unite on an error or falsehood.
Is everyone familiar with this principle??
Saying that, Sunnis and Shias might have to face the possibility that they can only unite if they both THROW OUT the Hadiths that they disagree upon and KEEP ONLY those Hadiths that they agree upon.
I think that if we can all agree on a Hadith, then it can be considered authentic without doubt. BUT!! If we can't all agree on a Hadith, then maybe it is infact a falsehood.

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[umm salamah]

OoOOh this is a hot topic among many muslims. Our beloved prophet (peace & blessings be upon him) said that near the time of qiymaat (Judgement day) there will be 73 secs among the muslim ummah! And only one will be on the right path and the prophet s.a.w advice was to stick to the quran sharif & sunnah (what the prophet s.a.w said, did, approved of...etc) and only then will you be on the right path.

Another point which i would like to make is that our beloved prophet peace & blessing be upon him also mentioned & warned us that near the time of judgement day many shias & sunnis will fight and it will turn into a massive battle which is happaning today. In Islam you are not allowed to kill anyone unless you got a good reason to. For example self defence is acceptable and if it means killing someone who is trying to kill you then thats okay. Only Allah s.a.w knows best whats going to happen. I don't know its complicated this issue....

Hope that makes some sense Insha Allah (god willing)

Peace!

[farhan]

But then who knows if the are Shias & Sunnis killing eachother ??? No evidence .

[wil]

Originally Posted by farhan

But then who knows if the are Shias & Sunnis killing eachother ??? No evidence .

Please expound on this, do you believe the reports are completely made up?

[aburaees]

The testimony of four eye-witnesses is an acceptable evidence as far as Islam is concerned.

I don't see why anyone should be surprised that the killings are happening... Ali and Aisha were among the first to participate in a Muslim civil war - as related in the Hadiths.

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[wil]

Originally Posted by aburaees

The testimony of four eye-witnesses is an acceptable evidence as far as Islam is concerned.

I don't see why anyone should be surprised that the killings are happening... Ali and Aisha were among the first to participate in a Muslim civil war - as related in the Hadiths..

So like it took the iron fist to keep the Serbians and Croatians from fighting, It takes a Sadam to keep the Shia and Sunni from fighting?

Is peace impossible in this world without vicious dictators?

[aburaees]

Originally Posted by wil

So like it took the iron fist to keep the Serbians and Croatians from fighting, It takes a Sadam to keep the Shia and Sunni from fighting?

Is peace impossible in this world without vicious dictators?

I wouldn't say that. Saddam was responsible for large scale murder of Shias. Though he wasn't necessarily a good example of a Sunni since he believed that he himself was Nebuchadnezzar reincarnate.

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[Jeannot]

Originally Posted by wil

So like it took the iron fist to keep the Serbians and Croatians from fighting, It takes a Sadam to keep the Shia and Sunni from fighting?

Is peace impossible in this world without vicious dictators?

Sometimes it looks that way, doesn't it?

Anyway, the Sunni/Shi'a thing looks from the West a lot like the differences that used to (and to some extent still do) separate Catholics and Protestants. Those differernces resulted in over half of the population of central Europe being wiped out in the Thirty Years War.

What ended most of the bloodshed for us in the West was the Enlightenment. (Interesting that the new peace did not come from within Christianity itself) So does Islam need its own "Englightenment"? I dunno.

[I, Brian]

The differences between Catholic and Protestants are still ongoing, with continued sectarian violence in Northern Ireland, and here in Scotland it's a serious issue as well.

But back to Sunni and Shi'a - is there any kind of sense of brotherhood between Sunni's and Shi'as, even at a distance?

[aburaees]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

The differences between Catholic and Protestants are still ongoing, with continued sectarian violence in Northern Ireland, and here in Scotland it's a serious issue as well.

But back to Sunni and Shi'a - is there any kind of sense of brotherhood between Sunni's and Shi'as, even at a distance?

We go to the same place for Hajj, pray in the same direction, worship the same God, believe in the same Prophets.

Actually the Islamic University Al-Azhar in Egypt OFFICIALLY recognised the Ithna-Ashari branch of Shia Islam to be a valid school of thought alongside the four major Sunni schools of thought.

This was as recent as the 20th century.

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[cyberpi]

A few verses to consider:

6:159 Yusufali: As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah. He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did.

30:32 Khalifa: (Do not fall in idol worship) like those who divide their religion into sects, each party rejoicing with what they have.

21:93 Khalifa: However they divided themselves into disputing religions. All of them will come back to us (for judgement).

[aburaees]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

A few verses to consider:

6:159 Yusufali: As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou hast no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah. He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did.

30:32 Khalifa: (Do not fall in idol worship) like those who divide their religion into sects, each party rejoicing with what they have.

21:93 Khalifa: However they divided themselves into disputing religions. All of them will come back to us (for judgement).

these are wondeful verses, thanks for posting them.

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[Amica]

Salaam/Peace.

I think it is crazy that Muslims would fight like that. But then again, even in my homeland Bosnia during the 1990s there were Muslims fighting Muslims. Sad, extremely sad. No wonder we are experiencing such turmoil, because many of us are not following what the Prophet Muhammad pbuh delivered to us: that we Muslims are brothers and sisters, One Ummah. But no... we must fight... we must choose sides with those who want us separate. When Muslims were united, they experienced success, but when we started falling apart we kept losing... The more we fell apart, the more many of us have been losing the teachings of Islam... Perhaps the hadiths that speak of the Judgment Day are right: we are leading ourselves to the times when there will not be much known about Islam and that we will be left with only one true aspect of faith: that God is one, and La illaha Illa Allah.

Peace.