St. Augustine

[Postmaster]

This Christian saint that lived about 354 - 430 was a convert from Manichaeism. Although Manichaeism may have nothing to do with the Baha'i there are similarities.

The Prophet founders wrote vast amount of religious works themselves. (Unique to both)
The Prophet founders were both Persian.
They both believed that culture clouded religion.
They both believed all religions and humanity were equal.
They are and were both a universal religion.

I'm trying to read up about St. Augustine’s life, trying and get into his mind, see why he left Manichaeism in favour of Christianity. What strikes me straight away about St. Augustine is that he does seem to be like one of those men in history that was way beyond his time, a very smart man, considering the time he was alive. Apart from other dodgy views of Manichaeism, it seems to me the social equality in Christianity is what attracted him firmly to it and what’s obvious is that he was an ultra pacifist.

"I have read in Plato and Cicero sayings that are wise and very beautiful; but I have never read in either of them: Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden.''
Saint Augustine

I read somewhere that it was through St. Augustine that Christianity has Manichaeism concepts in it and played a role in Christianity’s late development.

Here we have a quote from St. Augustine which appears to be quite Gnostic in thought.

“The World is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.”
Saint Augustine

To me this quote doesn’t belong in Christianity, as salvation in Christianity is open to everyone, not just those who have a learned elite knowledge. Contradictory, mysticism in Christianity is only acquired by an elite knowledge much the same way.

It also seems St. Augustine was an observer of nature too.

“We are certainly in a common class with the beasts; every action of animal life is concerned with seeking bodily pleasure and avoiding pain.”
Saint Augustine

[Postmaster]

"Indeed, man wishes to be happy even when he so lives as to make happiness impossible".
Saint Augustine

"Miracles are not contrary to nature, but only contrary to what we know about nature".
Saint Augustine

"To seek the highest good is to live well".
Saint Augustine

I have afew links which I will read up.

[BruceDLimber]

Hi!

I wouldn't say Baha'u'llah taught that culture "clouded religion," but rather that culture in its proper place is fine!

Certainly culture or any other desire or attraction can interfere with religion IF IMPROPERLY USED, but I don't think there's any ipso facto problem with anything not obviously negative in its nature.

Regards, :-)

Bruce

[Postmaster]

thanks for clearing that, thats a better way of putting it and what I really ment.

[Postmaster]

I'm quite amazed at some of his quotes, because he seems like a keen observer of the laws of nature and attraction. Something Leonardo Di Vinci was well known for.

I gather St. Augustine practised abstinence.

"He that is jealous is not in love".
Saint Augustine

Yet he makes quite a good philosophy observation towards relationships here. It took me till the age of 19 and a broken down partnership with a girl to realise this.

[KarimK]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

I'm trying to read up about St. Augustine’s life, trying and get into his mind, see why he left Manichaeism in favour of Christianity. What strikes me straight away about St. Augustine is that he does seem to be like one of those men in history that was way beyond his time, a very smart man, considering the time he was alive. Apart from other dodgy views of Manichaeism, it seems to me the social equality in Christianity is what attracted him firmly to it and what’s obvious is that he was an ultra pacifist.

I agree 100% on the social equality thing. There's this beautiful part in the Confessions about stealing and divine justice. I'll have to look it up and post it, but he basically says that if a poor man, dying of hunger, steals to feed himself, his family, then he has, true, wronged human laws, but as regards the laws of God he is completely innocent. (One of the arguments I really like - although it's totally debatable is : God obviously didn't put us on Earth so that we'd die of hunger)

“The World is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page.”
Saint Augustine

To me this quote doesn’t belong in Christianity, as salvation in Christianity is open to everyone, not just those who have a learned elite knowledge. Contradictory, mysticism in Christianity is only acquired by an elite knowledge much the same way.

I don't think this has anything to do with salvation. I think he's talking specifically of knowledge and how to attain it. Descartes used this image also : the World is as a huge book.

Oooh, don't forget THAT quote :
"What then is time? If no one asks me, I know what it is. If I wish to explain it to him who asks, I do not know."

Augustine formulated, better than anyone else, the problem of the nature of time and our understanding of it. That's funny, about Christian philosophers, they ask all the right questions and don't usually give the good answers

I think part of what made him convert to Catholicism is his disgust (eventually) of his life, and I think a close friend of his died and this really played a part in making him convert. Usually, when people convert, it's not on a rational basis. The rational stuff comes after. They convert at first because of something deeper and more instinctive tells them to. I honestly don't know a lot about Augustine's life, but I think that it applies to him. It's not exactly that he thought Christianity was more adapted to his thoughts, it must have been something less rational and had more to do with a gut-feeling.

On that last thing, I might be totally wrong. Hm, I should ask one of my teachers who did a thesis of Augustine, maybe she has interesting info.

Oh, and how is this relevant to the Baha'i faith?

[Postmaster]

Any religious scripture is likely welcome in this forum as they are all accepted as divinly inspired.

[KarimK]

I meant : how is Augustine himself relevant to the Baha'i faith?

[Postmaster]

I explained at the start of my post. There was a point when St. Augustine thought all religions were equally divinly inspired too.

[Mick]

Originally Posted by KarimK

I meant : how is Augustine himself relevant to the Baha'i faith?

Independent investigation for the Truths of God is a cornerstone of the Baha'i Faith. Pondering St. Augustine or others is probably one of the exercises that one may go through. Personally I find this sort of historical pondering interesting.

Mick

[Bruce Michael]

Hi Postmaster,


Here is the story as given by Francis Grant in his "Oriental Philosophy":

"Its doctrine, which interwove a call to high universal brotherhood
with a curious cosmogonic fantasmagoria, seemed to possess a strange lure, and long after the most rigorous measures had been taken to stamp out the faith by popes and kings, sporadic evidences of its survival were
discovered, and sparks of its existence were revealed not only in
Persia, but in such far-removed spots as China, Central Asia and the
Graeco-Roman empire! Despite the pathos and furtive character which
pervades the entire story of Manichaeism, it pronounced its
threatening challenge to the beginnings of the Christian Church.

It was on the very day of the coronation of King Shapur of Persia-
March20, in the year 242-that Mani, a native of Ectabana, chose to proclaimto the celebrating throngs that he was a prophet of God with a new revelation. Mani was then twenty-four years old and the son of a
high-born Persian of the Moghtasilah sect. This sect, having its
foothold in southern Babylonia, professed a sort of Baptism, and had
absorbed the teachings of various faiths, and probably some of the
tenets of Christianity, still young. Thus, with the faith of his
father,Mani had already accepted a varied gospel, and during his boyhood
year she is said to have had visions and revelations. But even before his
birth, the Manichaean tradition tells us, his mother had been visited
by the Angel Tawn who had brought her the annunciation of her mission.
Mani himself was forbidden to make known his ministry until
his twenty-fourth year. And this he elected to do on the high holiday
when all were assembled to rejoice at the ascent of their king. It is
said that the king's brother, Piruz, was already a convert to this
eclectic new faith-perhaps this would explain the amazing daring of
the young apostle of a new order, who intruded upon the solemnity of a
king's feast day. However, it does not appear that Shapur was offended
by the young apostle, in fact, he listened with a sympathetic ear to
the views of this new self-acclaimed redeemer.

Remaining but a short while in Iran, Mani is said to have set out on a
vast proselytizing mission which took him far and wide over the
breadth of Asia-and that he actually trod the distant trails of the land
during his lifetime is no longer dubious, as each explorer today adds his
evidence to the growing story. It was in Asia and China undoubtedly
that Mani, who appears also to have had unusual artistic talents,
encountered Chinese art which had reached so high a level. Returning to his native land, he brought these arts back to Persia-to a soil fertile for
artistic creation. But this time Shapur was not open to his gospel,
for the Magian priests by now so influential in his court, denounced Mani
and he was forced to flee. With the accession of Shapur's successor,
Hamiz, the young Persian apologist returned to his home, carrying on
his teaching without molestation, but watched with vengeful eyes by the
Magians, who had now lost favor. No sooner however did Hamiz die and
Bahram come to the throne, than the Magians returned to power.
Determined to stamp out this noxious growth which took root so
swiftly, they took Mani prisoner, then crucified him- and as a special warningto all who dared to follow his heretical doctrine, they flayed his body and stuffed his skin with hay. Mounting this ominous effigy upon the gates of the royal city, Gunde Shapur...."

The Enc. Britannica says his dates are 215/6-274. This is interesting
because some give 215 as the start of the astrological age of Pisces-
Robert Powell in his "Hermetic Astrology" gives 215 to 2375 as the dates
for the Piscean age.

The name of his father is Patek who had joined a religious community
practising abstinence and baptism. Through his mother he was related to the Parthian royal family (overthrown in 224).
The name of the Angel is "Twin" here.

I could continue with more of the stories later.

-Br. Bruce

[arthra]

Probably the discussion about Saint Augustine belongs in the Christian Forum...

I note that my friend Postmaster seems to be drawn to the idea that Manichaeism and Baha'i Faith are somehow connected... There are no historical connections however.

Saint Augustine eventually renounced Manichaeism and became a major thinker in the Christian church so that discussion is probably better served elsewhere.

- Art

[Postmaster]

There might not be a direct historical connections but there is an indirect through sufism and Islam.

Just to correct my above post St. Augustine had a son.

[Thomas]

It might be of some use to note that St Augustine abandoned Manichaeism in favour of Neoplatonism — he studied Plotinus under St Ambrose of Milan — and was instrumental in utilising the Greek philosophical tradition as a means of reasoning the data of Revelation of the Christian tradition.

Anyone interested in trivia: St Augustine is quoted more than any other (after Scripture itself) in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, followed by St Thomas Aquinas.

St Thomas references St Augustine, and notably Dionysius the pseudoAreopagite, extensively, both Neoplatonists, which rather dents the argument that St Thomas was a strict Aristotelian.

Among St Thomas' philosphical sources were the great Moslem philosophers Ibn Rushd (Averroes) and Ibn Sina (Avicenna), whose commentaries on Aristotle the Angelic Doctor studied in detail and mentions with profound respect in his great philosophical treatises.

It's a small world ...

Thomas