Spiritual Teachers

[Job]

Originally Posted by Job

For one to become enlightened one has to suffer, enlightenment is to know the suffering of others and to be able to know that it is due to the unnatural act of man. To see these acts for what they are and be able to lead others from these acts. Not in a prideful manner but with humility and respect. To treat all strangers with honor. These are the ways of a teacher. Me Job

Please excuse my poor spelling.

[didymus]

I think true enlightenment or infilling of the Spirit comes in most cases from a state of brokeness. It seems when we run out of answers and tire of relying on self we look outside(actually inside) of ourselves for truth. There we find it. I haven't met too many people who searched for spirituality when they were full of pride and ego and knew all the answers. Then again there are those folks that just seem to have it. I don't think I commented on spiritual teachers did I?

[Faithfulservant]

A sacrifice to God is a broken spirit..


Psalm 34:18 The Lord is near to those who have a broken heart, And saves such as have a contrite spirit

Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, A broken and a contrite heart-- These, O God, You will not despise.


sorry for interjecting this .. but I love Psalms

[Paladin]

What beautiful thoughts! Thank you all. The nadir experience was that which brought the Divine message home to me as well the first time. I also hold to what Maslow termed the "Peak experience" and have enjoyed that as well. Maslow, before he died also talked about "Plateau experiences" which to my understanding come during periods of intense prayer and meditation.

[Ciel]

There is no beauty in suffering, nor enlightenment gained through suffering and brokenness.
There is beauty in those who travel the path of enlightenment in love and humility and joy of being bringing light beyond themselves to lighten the hearts of others.

[didymus]

This is true ciel. I didn't mean to say that brokeness is enightening or enjoyable. It appears that most reach that stage of enjoyment and enlightenment after passing through a period of great sorrow or humbling. I say this from experience and also from the testimony of hundreds of others whom have had similar experiences.

[path_of_one]

I'm not sure that I would say suffering is beautiful, but I have found truth and beauty in the lessons I've gained from suffering. I guess this is what didymus is saying. I would not wish suffering on anyone, and I believe we should try to alleviate unnecessary suffering (due to the poor choices of humanity), but there are elements in all people's lives that are suffering until one breaks free from the perspective that make it so.

[Ciel]

Thank you didymus and path of one,
You see from all my teachers of the past it was only love who held the key.
Once feeling the presence of the beloved, there is only the beloved, and the same manifestation can be felt through many, in essence.
I have also known many people who make God of their suffering, who choose to hold fast in that strange safe place where they dare not dream a better way. And yet there is. The way opens in continual guidance, continual love and appreciation of being, and the way proceeds to the point of arrival where one becomes the love of the beloved and all there is, is to be.

[Paladin]

Originally Posted by Ciel

Thank you didymus and path of one,
You see from all my teachers of the past it was only love who held the key.
Once feeling the presence of the beloved, there is only the beloved, and the same manifestation can be felt through many, in essence.
I have also known many people who make God of their suffering, who choose to hold fast in that strange safe place where they dare not dream a better way. And yet there is. The way opens in continual guidance, continual love and appreciation of being, and the way proceeds to the point of arrival where one becomes the love of the beloved and all there is, is to be.

As good a line between legalism and mysticism as I have ever read, thank you Ciel. I hope I did not give the wrong impression that there is beauty in suffering, the beauty lies, for me at least, in the instant realization of Gods love in the midst of my self imposed suffering. That moment of sweet release into the only and ultimate reality of of peace. This is the redemtion of the nadir experience, proving that " All things work to the good..."

I feel from your words, that your path has been one of beauty, love, and light, and I rejoice in that. I am actually one of those clods who chose the hard way of learning, but at least I can now see the everlasting realms of peace that stretch before me into infinity.

Thank you Ciel, I am happy there are persons like you in this world, it makes it so much more pleasant to inhabit

[Ciel]

Yes Paladin,
Also in truth, I was witness to many things outside my choosing.
Part of the journey was to move through the different landscapes of the mind to understand intent of how and why the world is as it is. Strange lands when one has moved beyond mind yet is still witness to exterior interaction of consciousness as invasive. And knowing if this mind set is not of my makeing and yet relative to all that passes through world humanity,what chance is there for the world in constant play of it all, except to aligne to a stronger foundation of inner self in relation to God. Without love and total trust I would not have come through. In that is the greatest understanding of how it is also for others and Paladin for you too, and greetings, the world is always turning that's one thing we all know for sure, one day soon I dream it wakes to the right direction.

[In the Now]

a site which may be interesting

http://teachersuk.blogspot.com/

[Ciel]

Greetings In The Now,
With reference to your latest link, cant help but wonder - Is this something you wrote yourself?
If you are really looking for a spiritual teacher, look towards the one that touches your soul and enlivens your spirit. Then something can happen, and through whatever direction it takes you, you will evolve through the truth of your own being. But to seek initialy to discredit serves no purpose. There are many different levels of enlightenment, some teachers are not of the highest level, but still are there to help the process and the definition of all it is towards higher quality. What is it you truly expect?What does enlightenment mean to you?
In the real meaning of enlightenment there is the grace of God, the indefinable, only defined when one is immersed in the very same.

[dauer]

There's a hasidic story, which I'm not going to type in my own words because I don't know it very well, but it is about finding a spiritual teacher.

Some students of the Baal Shem Tov came to him one day with a question. "Every year we travel here to learn from you. Nothing could make us stop doing that. But we have learned of a man in our own town who claims to be a tzaddik, a righteous one. If he is genuine, we would love to profit from his wisdom. But how will we know if he is a fake?"

The Baal Shem Tov looked at his earnest hasidim. "You must test him by asking him a question." He paused. "You have had difficulty with stray thoughts during prayer?"

"Yes!" The hasidim answered eagerly. "We try to think only of our holy intentions as we pray, but other thoughts come into our minds. We have tried many methods not to be troubled by them."

"Good," said the Baal Shem Tov. "Ask him the way to stop such thoughts from entering your minds." The Baal Shem Tov smiled. "If he has an answer, he is a fake."

http://www.hasidicstories.com/Storie..._Tov/know.html

[Ciel]

Greetings dauer,
With regard to the answer from the Baal Shem Tov.................Why?

[dauer]

Ciel, that may be a question the story was meant to raise. I can think of a few answers:

1. He's not humble or he thinks too highly of himself. A good teacher is simply a vessel for the teaching and some hasidic masters gave credit for important writings to the people of the past, instead of taking it themselves.

2. There is no single method for everybody. A real spiritual teacher either recognizes this and will not teach a single method for stopping stray thoughts from entering the mind during pray, or meditation, or perhaps the problem with this particular type of spiritual teacher is that he or she is not working closes which his followers and personalizing his teachings.

My feeling is that it's left a little open ended on purpose, but that the most immediate reason is that there is no particular way of stopping the thoughts from entering the mind. It's something that takes practice and there are multiple ways. Any spiritual teacher who has ego enough to say, "I know the way!" and is foolish enough to ignore the fact that these thoughts can't just be stopped so simply is no real teacher. I'm not sure though. I think this particular story has ambiguity on purpose.

I have to wonder who these false teachers were, that this teaching was given. There had to have been an antecedent, meaning it had to have been in response to a particular type of teacher. I'm thinking it's the impersonal teacher with the large court who's supported by the community to the point that he's got quite a bit of money. That seems to fit the response from the Besht. But that's all only my answer.

Dauer