Spirits

[mandrill]

I think a bit of clarification is needed for the term "ally" as it is used in the Castaneda books. Sorcerors called the entities this, because they sought to control them and use them for their own purposes. However, the books later stress that these beings are simply non-organic lifeforms, just another form of life in the world, and not particularly concerned with humans one way or the other usually, except in ways we might be concerned with them .. i.e., curious at first, capable of other emotions towards us once contact has been established. Whether these beings really have more power than we have is doubtful, in fact, they are attracted to us precisely because we possess the greater energy. Sorcerors, it is said, found them mainly useful to frighten other people or as companions in their journeys to alternate worlds, which are the true home worlds of the various "allies."

They do tend to be attracted to strong human emotions, like love or fear, as I mentioned, I think, in my last post. It might be simply that such emotions give out more energy than a base state.

Having said all of the above, which I've merely recounted from the books I've read, I have to add that there is no way I can assert that any of this is true. All I know for sure is that the descriptions of the "allies" agree very well with experiences I've had in my own life, particularly as a teenager, though those feelings have returned to me at various other times as well. It never felt to me that the entities (and these are definitely different than the 'inner voice' I experienced twice) had any particular design on me or interest in doing anything either good or malevolent .. rather I sensed a fascination with me I guess .. to what ends I had no clue.

[Quahom1]

Energy can not be created or destroyed, only changed...

Matter can not be created or destroyed, only changed...

Matter can be converted into energy and vice versa... nothing is lost.

Try it. Take electricity and apply it to a welding rod fusing a steel joint together. The electricity creates heat, which melts the rod and partially melts the two plates forming the joint, fusion between the metals occurs and now you have no more rod, no more electricity, but one solid yet hot piece of steel (where there was once two seperate peices). As the hot plate of steel cools, the air around it heats up and rises and expands, whichs warms the welder who opens his shirt and lets the 'air' in, which wisks away the heat that rises into the sky, which helps cause the air to condense water....rain, which falls to the earth...

When death occurs, the body usually can not sustain the life energy within, so it leaves. Other options are the life energy deliberately wrenching itself away from the body housing it... rare but posible - Or the body's instant inability to sustain the life energy, leaving the life force in shock (dead before you know it).

Then there is the 'unfinished business' that so many of us have before death. Maybe, some of us have "will" strong enough to linger behind to finish that business. Maybe, the 'spirits' we sense are the residual energy we had in life left behind, as a sort of echo, or pebble in the pond effect.

My point is that nothing is wasted, not matter, not energy. All eventually dissapates, but not at the same time. And dissapates, does not mean dissappear, but merely absorbed, introduced and/or incorporated into other sources of matter or energy.

Brian's 'ghost' could be a restless 'spirit', residual energy from a life long ago lived that lingers near a particular spot, or an area devoid of energy (cold spots). He said there was no malevolent feeling to it, therefore lack of emotion tends to rule out 'spirits'.

Then again, we have the concept of angels and demons (watchers).

Finally it could be of all things, a video camera, and Brian senses the electromagnetic aura that surrounds the thing (in a place where he does not expect such a thing to be).

People are sensitive to electromagnetic stimuli. Some are sensitive to concentrated ultraviolet radiation, and some to deep infrared frequencies.

I don't doubt that there might be "Duendes" among us, but I don't think every incedent is a "Duende meadow" ready for harvest.

v/r

Q

[alexa]

Ten years ago, I did a course in radiesthesia. I have to add that I stopped at level 3 as I couldn't bear the effects on me. And I also add, not every person can follow this course. A selection is done by a senior and every person who thinks this can give a opportunity to enrich one day is automatically rejected. You need also to have a certain degree of goodness inside of you (more than 80 %).

Here you have the definition of radiesthesia as given in wikipedia :

Radiesthesia

is a phenomenon similar to dowsing that is used for medical diagnosis. It uses a pendulum suspended above a patient. The nature of the swinging, and direction of rotation, would indicate the person's ailment.

In reality there more instruments used such as : rods (ex. from nut tree for those who search water) and antenna, metal wands in a V or L form, Turenne's ruler, protracteur and electronic devices.

Why do I speak about radiesthesia when the thread is about spirits ? The reason is we have learned about them and I would like to share with you this information.

After death of a vegetal, animal or human system we speak about entities. A very simple classification separate them in good and evil entities. Another one, more complex, separate the entities in funtion of their ancient structure and their intelligent level. Here you have how the entities appear in the second classification :

1. spirits of the nature (elf, goblin) are entities in development in a primary stade, not very clever and their origin is in vegetal and animal systems;
2. spirits of places (mountain, lac, forest, cave, etc);
3. guardian entities (ex. for a holy place or a treasure);
4. guardian angels (it is said each of us has one);
5. fallen entities (ghosts).

In radiesthesia you need a high sensibility to feel bio-energetic fields and this couse teach how to sense and work with them. We all have 7 energetic fields and 7 centers, knew as chakras. A radiesthesist has to balance all his fields in order to help another person.

As you can see, you need to be sensitive to feel the presence of the entities around you.

But, don't worry. You can live happily even if you are not able to feel them. They are in another dimension of existance, that's all.

[Susma Rio Sep]

Energy can not be created or destroyed, only changed...

Matter can not be created or destroyed, only changed...

Matter can be converted into energy and vice versa... nothing is lost.

Often I am hesitant to go into a subject because I don't know practically nothing about the subject that I am sure about, insofar as my personal knowledge is concerned, from experience or from my own examination of the subject, and my conclusions which I am myself satisfied with.

Energy and matter is one such topic that I have to confess I know practically nothing about. And what I learned in college I must admit here is not very enlightening either.

So, my stock knowledge just the same about energy and matter is also tantamount to the three statements Quahom1 puts forward in his post earlier.

If Quahom1 is around, perhaps this is my chance to get a more tight knowledge about energy and matter, from him, outside of the mantra:

Energy can not be created or destroyed, only changed...

Matter can not be created or destroyed, only changed...

Matter can be converted into energy and vice versa... nothing is lost.

Can you tell me, Quahom1, is energy needed to change energy to matter and to change matter to energy?

And if energy is needed to change energy to matter and matter to energy, will there be more and more energy or more and more matter until only one or the other remains, and then what...? No more changes?

Please explain to me in man in the street words, but I do possess a working intelligence as I have known of myself from all the IQ tests I have had to go through in life so far.

It is possible however that the subject is simply beyond my mental grasp.

Just the same, try explaining to me, as to a child whose knowledge about things and subjects is bound up with concrete and tangible everyday articles of life at home and in the neighborhood.

Pachomius2000

[Susma Rio Sep]

Tell me, what people are closest to spirits, aside from us who do live among people who have the interest to talk about spirits.

The way I see it, it is people like you and me but who don't talk about spirits, and yet they are as I see it and you can tell me if you agree or not and why, namely, it is people who work on dead people or human cadavers.

Who are these people? I can think of two: pathologists and embalmers, the one are into medicine and the other are into technology and art (seems like Greek and Latin for the same thing...).

Do we have any kind of medical professional here who is doing the examination of a cadaver for the purpose of autopsy, and also any embalmer?

Please give us your experiences or even just views about spirits, or any kind of encouters whatsoever with spirits.

Once I looked for people in a very big forum who are doing autopsy or embalming work, and one such person responded to me, he told me he is an embalmer.

I asked him about spirits, first whether he had any kind of experience which might for him count as any kind of encounter with spirits, or more broadly does he reflect on life and death and things of the beyond if any such realm of existence there be for him.

You know what? he never answered back; and that thread I started stopped there, for no one ever replied aside from that one.

Maybe in that very big forum there were no members engaged in autopsy or embalming works; or if any members be, they never chanced into my thread, or they simply had no interest in my curiosity.

What do you guys say?

Pachomius2000

[alexa]

Tell me, what people are closest to spirits, aside from us who do live among people who have the interest to talk about spirits.

There are only a few religions. One of them, called Spiritism has at least 14 millions in Brezil.

Before I name the others I would like to add the definition of spiritism as given in wikipedia :

Spiritism

is a generic term for various beliefs that claim the existence of immortal souls that can somehow be communicated with and interact with the real world (often through channeling) even after death. Many of those religions are reincarnationist. Often the word is used specifically to indicate Kardecist Spiritism, a religion founded by Allan Kardec in the late 19th century.

The others religions interested in spirits are :

- Umbanda is a religion that blends Catholicism, Kardecist Spiritualism and Afro-Brazilian traditions.
- Macumba (Brezil) is very close to European witchcraft.
- Candomblé or Batuque is an Afro-American religion.
- Vodoo or Vodun or Vodou or Vudu has its origin in west african religions in you can find it in Cuba, R. Dominicaine and others in Carrabian region.

If you want to know if I am a spiritist, Susma, the answer is no. I've found pharmaceutical field more suitable for my invoices.

Please give us your experiences or even just views about spirits, or any kind of encouters whatsoever with spirits.

And your contribution to this thread is ?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

Energy can not be created or destroyed, only changed...

Matter can not be created or destroyed, only changed...

Matter can be converted into energy and vice versa... nothing is lost.

Often I am hesitant to go into a subject because I don't know practically nothing about the subject that I am sure about, insofar as my personal knowledge is concerned, from experience or from my own examination of the subject, and my conclusions which I am myself satisfied with.

Energy and matter is one such topic that I have to confess I know practically nothing about. And what I learned in college I must admit here is not very enlightening either.

So, my stock knowledge just the same about energy and matter is also tantamount to the three statements Quahom1 puts forward in his post earlier.

If Quahom1 is around, perhaps this is my chance to get a more tight knowledge about energy and matter, from him, outside of the mantra:


Can you tell me, Quahom1, is energy needed to change energy to matter and to change matter to energy?

And if energy is needed to change energy to matter and matter to energy, will there be more and more energy or more and more matter until only one or the other remains, and then what...? No more changes?

Please explain to me in man in the street words, but I do possess a working intelligence as I have known of myself from all the IQ tests I have had to go through in life so far.

It is possible however that the subject is simply beyond my mental grasp.

Just the same, try explaining to me, as to a child whose knowledge about things and subjects is bound up with concrete and tangible everyday articles of life at home and in the neighborhood.

Pachomius2000

Thank you Sus for the oppertunity to attempt explanation.

Your question and thought behind the question remind me of what is called "The Entropy Effect". That is the assuredness that in time, all matter will eventually break down to its most elemental components. Matter is still there, but in its most basic, uncombined form.

At a sub-atomic level, we have discovered (so far) that matter actually is made up of energy vibrating (or wave), at very low frequencies.

As for matter requiring more energy to become energy, the reverse is also true. Energy requires more matter to become more matter.

Example:

If I take a piece of iron, weigh it then let it sit in closed atmosphere containing oxygen. After time the iron begins to rust. Rust is a slow form of burning (energy). Now re-weigh the rusted iron. Does it weigh less, the same, or more than the original piece of Iron?

How did the rust of the iron transpire?

Where did the energy come from to cause a change in the matter?

Was energy or matter lost or gained?

The answers are surprising, but can be repeated and observed and measured over and over again.

The rusted iron now weighs more than before, and is in fact two different types of material (uncorrupted ferrous, and corrupted ferrous oxide).

The actual atmosphere surrounding the iron now weighs less due to the loss of free oxygen.

The energy came from different types of matter contacting each other which released energy (chemical reaction) which caused the iron to change to a different material, and the atmosphere to change from its previous state, but...

The energy released from the ferrous/oxygen contact is now partially contained in the new matter (ferrous oxide) while the other part (heat) warmed the air, causing it to vibrate more, which brought more oxygen into contact with the iron, which...keeps the cycle going.

If one could contain all energy released from the burn, and contain all the atmospher and ferrous oxide, eventually the heat energy would cause the ferrous oxide to part into free oxygen(which would combine with nitrogen to become nitrous oxide) and ferrous. The heat would then cause the ferrous to come back together (molten), which would cool down, allow the heated atmosphere to cool down, causing the oxygen and nitrogen to break up.

Once equilibrium was achieved the entire process would begin again.

And if you could weigh all the ingredients for your experiment in totality, you would find that the overall weight never changed (atmosphere and iron combined).

This experiment was actually conducted in 1771 by Laurent Lavoisier.

This was also one of the building blocks to prove Einstein's formula of E=MC2, wherein Energy equals Mass (matter) times the speed of light, squared.

Any energy moving slower than the speed of light squared, becomes matter. This includes energy vibrating in place.

I hope I've satisfied your request for an answer Sus.

v/r

Q

[Erynn]

Originally Posted by Zazen

interesting topic..

although, i dont think its fair to call other forms of life, or rather other forms of intelligence "spirits" simply because they exist outside of our realm of understanding

for instance, air is intangible and invisible, which is the obvious character traits of 'spirits'

But do you attribute intellegence and will to air? Most people who believe in spirits assign those to them. In my world, there may be cloud or storm or sky spirits, but air is not itself a spirit.

personally, i think offering a "spirit" water or food is a bit of a stretch, i dont understand the significance of this practice if the being in question is not of this reality or this plane of existence

In most cultures where such offering is made, it's believed that the spirit touches or absorbs the essence of the food. In some cultures, like Hinduism, the food is then blessed by the deity and is holy for people to eat. In other cultures, like Scottish folkloric custom, the spirit eats the energy and leaves the food drained and unfit for consumption. Different people and cultures explain it in different ways. The Ulchi of Siberia leave food offerings and when they are eaten (by whatever happens by), the food has been accepted by the spirits -- even if it's somebody's hunting dog that ate it. The dog's got a spirit too, right?

maybe we should list the things that are commonly known about ghosts and spirits, for short

they are intangible-yet they are known to move or effect tangible objects
they are invisible to the naked eye, yet they seem to be able to appear/disappear at will
in the case of one of these members, they have the ability to read our minds and send messages via telepathy of some sort?
they are capable of making noise, or threats or seemingly mindless statements, but they seem to be incapable or unwilling to discussion
they know the future(this is a big one) and usually either give advice which best compliments the person or which best suits the spirit

Well, ghosts may or may not be intelligent spirits -- they may be a sort of "echo" of a person's emotions. And some spirits do hold conversations. This is what mediums and shamans participate in. Different kinds of spirits will know different kinds of things. The spirit of Aunt Mabel might be able to tell you all about canning, but never take a spirit's advice on playing the ponies. Just because they're dead doesn't mean they're omniscient.

ok, so from what ive listed above spirits are capable of a helluvalot, much more then most humans can or would normally claim..

so what entitles them to so much power? what entitles us to so little?

I'm not sure "entitlement" has anything to do with it. I'm not sure that spirits always perceive us any more than we always perceive them. Most people need to be in an altered state of consciousness to have an encounter with the spirit world -- through fasting, meditation, vision quest, entheogenic substances, breath control, or the like. Do most spirits have to go through an equivalent of such things where they exist? I know that sometimes I perceive them more easily than others, and sometimes it's more like just this feeling that they're around. I rarely get lengthy conversations with them but sometimes they point me in good directions. A lot of times I get messages of a sort from them in dreams, or flashes of intuition. I try to test what they give me for veracity when it's possible.

This certainly doesn't mean I have all the answers, but I think I have some that work for me.

[Susma Rio Sep]

Dear Quahom1:

I can't commend you enough for your explanation of the matter and energy conundrum. You are a good teacher to ordinary folks like me.

Now, if only the Buddhist enthusiasts can explain Buddhist concepts and principles the way you do matter and energy.

I am trying to analyze the question of spirits from my knowledge now better understood of matter and energy.

And I think this new knoweledge can be used also to assess Buddhism and religion, and draw the kind of attitude or mindset I am justified in regarding Buddhism and also religion in general.

Thanks a lot, and I hope to enlist your generous goodness again when I have puzzling questions of scientific matters.

For the rest of the posters here, please forgive my digression from spirits; but as we all know everything is related to everything, and knowledege of one is always very useful in grasping the significance or insignificance of knowledge of another.

Often people are talking from 'parallax' universes even though on the same material topic; like I am talking about spirits in connection with people who work on dead humans, like pathologists doing autopsy and morticians or embalmers, and someone else is talking about spirits in connection with spiritism, the practice of contacting spirits through so-called mediums.

Susma Rio Sep aka Pachomius2000

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Thank you Sus for the oppertunity to attempt explanation.

Your question and thought behind the question remind me of what is called "The Entropy Effect". That is the assuredness that in time, all matter will eventually break down to its most elemental components. Matter is still there, but in its most basic, uncombined form.

At a sub-atomic level, we have discovered (so far) that matter actually is made up of energy vibrating (or wave), at very low frequencies.

As for matter requiring more energy to become energy, the reverse is also true. Energy requires more matter to become more matter.

Example:

If I take a piece of iron, weigh it then let it sit in closed atmosphere containing oxygen. After time the iron begins to rust. Rust is a slow form of burning (energy). Now re-weigh the rusted iron. Does it weigh less, the same, or more than the original piece of Iron?

How did the rust of the iron transpire?

Where did the energy come from to cause a change in the matter?

Was energy or matter lost or gained?

The answers are surprising, but can be repeated and observed and measured over and over again.

The rusted iron now weighs more than before, and is in fact two different types of material (uncorrupted ferrous, and corrupted ferrous oxide).

The actual atmosphere surrounding the iron now weighs less due to the loss of free oxygen.

The energy came from different types of matter contacting each other which released energy (chemical reaction) which caused the iron to change to a different material, and the atmosphere to change from its previous state, but...

The energy released from the ferrous/oxygen contact is now partially contained in the new matter (ferrous oxide) while the other part (heat) warmed the air, causing it to vibrate more, which brought more oxygen into contact with the iron, which...keeps the cycle going.

If one could contain all energy released from the burn, and contain all the atmospher and ferrous oxide, eventually the heat energy would cause the ferrous oxide to part into free oxygen(which would combine with nitrogen to become nitrous oxide) and ferrous. The heat would then cause the ferrous to come back together (molten), which would cool down, allow the heated atmosphere to cool down, causing the oxygen and nitrogen to break up.

Once equilibrium was achieved the entire process would begin again.

And if you could weigh all the ingredients for your experiment in totality, you would find that the overall weight never changed (atmosphere and iron combined).

This experiment was actually conducted in 1771 by Laurent Lavoisier.

This was also one of the building blocks to prove Einstein's formula of E=MC2, wherein Energy equals Mass (matter) times the speed of light, squared.

Any energy moving slower than the speed of light squared, becomes matter. This includes energy vibrating in place.

I hope I've satisfied your request for an answer Sus.

v/r

Q

[Susma Rio Sep]

Dear Alexa:

I ask this question addressed to all who read messages here in this forum:

Do we have any kind of medical professional here who is doing the examination of a cadaver for the purpose of autopsy, and also any embalmer?

Please give us your experiences or even just views about spirits, or any kind of encouters whatsoever with spirits.

Can you tell me your reactions to the following questions:

1. In our 'stock' knowledge, there are two kinds of spirits, the ones that enliven or inhabit living humans, and are supposed to continue to be existing after their biological demise; and the ones that are without any biological hosts. Yes or no?

2. Does it make sense that if people want to be nearest to spirits of the first kind, they should hang around deceased humans; because their spirits could be assumed to also be still hanging around or sticking around -- yes or no?

3. Who are the people nearest physically and thus also 'psychically' nearest to deceased humans, pathologists doing autopsy on cadavers and embalmers doing preservative and cosmetic work on cadavers -- yes or no?

4. Shouldn't we then consult them about spirits, their experiences of if any or their views of -- yes or no?

For example, if I want to know about the practice of prostitution and how prostitutes feel about their work, morally, psychologically, financially, medically, sociallly, etc., shouldn't I consult people nearest to prostitutes, like pimps, regular customers, and of course the prostitutes themselves.

I definitely will not consult religious mentors like pastors, evangelists, priests, lawmakers (unless they are also into the activities of the characters mentioned in the preceding paragraph, concurrently with their professed careers.

Pachomius2000

Originally Posted by alexa

There are only a few religions. One of them, called Spiritism has at least 14 millions in Brezil.

Before I name the others I would like to add the definition of spiritism as given in wikipedia :

[font=Times New Roman][b]

The others religions interested in spirits are :

- Umbanda is a religion that blends Catholicism, Kardecist Spiritualism and Afro-Brazilian traditions.
- Macumba (Brezil) is very close to European witchcraft.
- Candomblé or Batuque is an Afro-American religion.
- Vodoo or Vodun or Vodou or Vudu has its origin in west african religions in you can find it in Cuba, R. Dominicaine and others in Carrabian region.

If you want to know if I am a spiritist, Susma, the answer is no. I've found pharmaceutical field more suitable for my invoices.



And your contribution to this thread is ?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

Dear Quahom1:

I can't commend you enough for your explanation of the matter and energy conundrum. You are a good teacher to ordinary folks like me.

Now, if only the Buddhist enthusiasts can explain Buddhist concepts and principles the way you do matter and energy.

I am trying to analyze the question of spirits from my knowledge now better understood of matter and energy.

And I think this new knoweledge can be used also to assess Buddhism and religion, and draw the kind of attitude or mindset I am justified in regarding Buddhism and also religion in general.

Thanks a lot, and I hope to enlist your generous goodness again when I have puzzling questions of scientific matters.

For the rest of the posters here, please forgive my digression from spirits; but as we all know everything is related to everything, and knowledege of one is always very useful in grasping the significance or insignificance of knowledge of another.

Often people are talking from 'parallax' universes even though on the same material topic; like I am talking about spirits in connection with people who work on dead humans, like pathologists doing autopsy and morticians or embalmers, and someone else is talking about spirits in connection with spiritism, the practice of contacting spirits through so-called mediums.

Susma Rio Sep aka Pachomius2000

Thank you Sus,

But I think the laws of physics and the laws of man's thinking are like comparing apples to oranges...very hard to do. It is black and white versus shades of gray, and leaps of faith, and - what is the term?.. oh yeah, "intuition", versus logical steps and expected results.

I can't logically explain Christian concepts and principles, and I are one (or try to be). In fact I once tried to explain PI as the signature of God (due to its infinite decimal placement), and got myself into a whole lot of trouble. So I share what I know, and actively ponder what I don't know.

I know that without electricity (energy), the human body (matter) does not function. I know that if the human body does not function, the life force (energy?), can not be contained within said body, and therefore departs.

So, If the life force is indeed energy contained within matter (a body), that is activated by other energy (electricity), then Lavoisier's experiment in 1771 literally proved the immortality of the spirit of a man!

Logic dictates that if energy plus matter equal more energy, then energy minus matter equals energy (albeit a lesser amount). In otherwords, something is left behind, not lost. The matter (body) may no longer be capable if interacting with the potential energy present, but that does not mean the energy is gone. It merely means the energy and matter are no longer suitable to interact with eachother, and therfore separate. Thus you have the potential for 'ghosts'.

It is a hard row to hoe, I know ;-), but the fact that energy can not be created or destroyed, only changed, is hard and proven. Human spirit as a 'force' to be reckoned with is also proven.

The only question left to prove is this...is the spirit of a human (one's life force), a form of energy? If yes, then the possibility of 'ghosts' is definitely real.

v/r

Q

[Susma Rio Sep]

I am exposing myself to the stigma of being money-obsessed, just the same I will go ahead, and anyone can tell me where I am wrong.

Erynn tells us:

. . . .
I can't say that I can really explain them, but they make themselves known to me. They come to me in dreams, or gather around me and "tell" me things nonverbally, which often give me clues about things happening energetically around me. They help me and work through me when I do healing work. They are agents of change to whom I pray and make offerings. They are the powers within the land who allow me to live here and to prosper when they are happy with me.

They are shapeshifters, taking many forms. Sometimes they are in the shapes of animals, but sometimes they are a blend of human and animal. Other times, they are just a palpable "feeling" around me, or a voice in the back of my head.

If the one around you doesn't feel threatening, then you might want to try talking to it. Maybe leave something out for it as you would for a house spirit -- perhaps it wishes to communicate with you, to help you with something, or to ask something of you.

Is there any chance, Erynn, of putting this relationship with spirits into an act which can be marketed like in a circus? Imagine the income such a display will earn for the person with such a gifted contact with spirits.

As far as I know, no one has really made it big in the way of cashing in on money, not with spirits, except the small timers offering to get in contact with them for answers to matters you would want to know about -- on the assumption that they know things which we don't (as though being spirits gives them the property of omniscience and infallibility).

Castaneda made a lot of money with books. After the first one he discovered his real gift of making money with more of the same stuff about contacts with outer worldly denizens.

No, I confess I have not read any of his works except browse about them in bookstores, and reached the conclusion that I have better use of my time and funds. What did he do with his sizable earnings? Open a center for the study and cultivation of contacts with spirits?

The better study is not about spirits but about people who are into spirits, like Castaneda, who made a fortune from writing about them and his encounters with them. The conclusion you will reach I am sure, is that they make money from spirits.

What about people into conventional religion? The same conclusion, for me. But I must admit that religious people and people into spirits make money legally and could be ethically; because they do cater to a need.

My only caveat to them: make sure you don't end up in court with any charges of physical, mental, or moral damage, or financial embezzlement.

Yes, there is also another benefit from knowledge and discourse in regard to spirits, it is good entertainment.

Do they exist?

I think animals like dogs know about the spirit that leaves the human body when a human person is dying, or maybe also other animals or living entities; which does not mean that the spirit continues to exist apart from the living human.

In the neighborhood when the dogs are howling, they seem to be saying that someone is in the throes of death -- my own observations. What do you guys say?

Why do they howl upon sensing the subtle odor of death or dying? Perhaps thousands of years before it meant time to eat.

Pachomius2000

[alexa]

[QUOTE original posted by Susma Rio Dep]Often people are talking from 'parallax' universes even though on the same material topic; like I am talking about spirits in connection with people who work on dead humans, like pathologists doing autopsy and morticians or embalmers, and someone else is talking about spirits in connection with spiritism, the practice of contacting spirits through so-called mediums.[/quote]
Dear Susma,

I agree we speak about the same subject but from different perspective. As I could see you have no experiance with spirits and you didn't find anybody to speak about them.
I gave you only a few religions as referrence to show you there are more people interested about spirits than you think.
I'll try to answer to your questions. Maybe we can find ourselves in the same universe this time.

1. In our 'stock' knowledge, there are two kinds of spirits, the ones that enliven or inhabit living humans, and are supposed to continue to be existing after their biological demise; and the ones that are without any biological hosts. Yes or no?

No. Please see the classification about spirits in my previous post on this thread. What you call a spirit who inhabit living humans, I call it soul. Zaden gave you a very good explanation about the energy left behind, but not lost. This kind of energy represents for me a spirit and it may come from a human, an animal or a plant. Only those with an acute sensivity, as Erynn can access to this info-energy.

2. Does it make sense that if people want to be nearest to spirits of the first kind, they should hang around deceased humans; because their spirits could be assumed to also be still hanging around or sticking around -- yes or no?

No. Maybe at the beginning, but not after let's say 100 years. A ghost can be attracted wherever it can find the same thing he/she was obssed with when alive.

3. Who are the people nearest physically and thus also 'psychically' nearest to deceased humans, pathologists doing autopsy on cadavers and embalmers doing preservative and cosmetic work on cadavers -- yes or no?

No. See above.

4. Shouldn't we then consult them about spirits, their experiences of if any or their views of -- yes or no?

No. They are specialists used to close their personal feelings inside of them in order to be objective for the diagnose.

Spirits are in a parallel universe for us. They do not care about the life we have. They have their personal issues to deel with. You cannot expect to help you with money. Those who tell you they can, are just frauds.

Alexa

[Quahom1]

Alexa, Susma,

It is my experience that unless the living have a damned good reason, it is not wise to drag passed on spirits back to a lower level of existence. In fact the only reasonable decision to bring a spirit back here was Biblically based, and the result was not quite perfect. Jesus raised Lazurus, and from scripture, Lazurus was not all together here when he walked out of the tomb. I don't think he was very happy at all. He did Jesus a favor, but the cost was high for Lazurus. He was never the same man as before he died.

It is also my opinion that bringing other spirits forth into this level of existence is equally unwise. Sort of like taking quantum laws of physics and forcing them into macro universe of physics.

Alexa, just because some of us do not choose to talk about the worlds of spirits, does not mean we are ignorant of them. Perhaps it was thought best not to bring the issue up (in some's opinions). Certainly not for profit.

v/r

Q

[alexa]

Hi Quahom1,

It is my experience that unless the living have a damned good reason, it is not wise to drag passed on spirits back to a lower level of existence.

I agree.

Alexa, just because some of us do not choose to talk about the worlds of spirits, does not mean we are ignorant of them. Perhaps it was thought best not to bring the issue up (in some's opinions). Certainly not for profit.

Sorry, but I didn't start this thread.

Alexa