Speechless

[aged hippy]

If i upset anyone, or their beliefs, that is unfortunate.
I am pretty upset myself.


From the BBC tonight:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/health/3176982.stm

>>>>>>
Thursday, 9 October, 2003, 16:16 GMT 17:16 UK


Vatican in HIV condom row
The Catholic Church has been accused of telling people in countries with high rates of HIV that condoms do not protect against the deadly virus.

The claims are made in a Panorama programme called Sex and the Holy City to be screened on BBC One on Sunday.

It says cardinals, bishops, priests and nuns in four continents are saying HIV can pass through tiny holes in condoms.

The World Health Organization has condemned the comments and warned the Vatican it is putting lives at risk.

The claims come just a day after a report revealed that a young person is now infected with HIV every 14 seconds.

" The statements are totally incorrect. Latex condoms are impermeable. They do prevent HIV transmission. "
Catherine Hankins,
chief scientific advisor to UNAids,

According to the United Nations Population Fund, around 6,000 people between the ages of 15 and 24 catch the virus every day.

Half of all new infections are now in people under the age of 25 and most of these are young women living in the developing world.

Condom advice

Health experts around the world urge people to use condoms to protect themselves from HIV and a host of sexually transmitted infections.

However, the Catholic Church has consistently refused to back such calls. The Vatican is opposed to contraception and has advocated that people change their behaviour instead.

But according to Panorama, the Church is now telling people that condoms do not work.

In an interview, one of the Vatican's most senior cardinals Alfonso Lopez Trujillo suggested HIV could even pass through condoms.

"The Aids virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon. The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom," he says.

" Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids "
Gordon Wambi, Aids activist

The cardinal, who is president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, suggests that governments should urge people not to use condoms.

"These margins of uncertainty...should represent an obligation on the part of the health ministries and all these campaigns to act in the same way as they do with regard to cigarettes, which they state to be a danger."

The programme includes a Catholic nun advising her HIV-infected choir master not to use condoms with his wife because "the virus can pass through".

The Archbishop of Nairobi Raphael Ndingi Nzeki told Panaroma that condoms were helping to spread the virus.

"Aids...has grown so fast because of the availability of condoms," he said.

In Kenya, one in five people are HIV positive.

Gordon Wambi, director of an Aids testing programme in Lwak, near Lake Victoria, told the programme that he could not distribute condoms because of opposition from the Catholic Church.

"Some priests have even been saying that condoms are laced with HIV/Aids," he said.

According to Panaroma, the claims about condoms are repeated by Catholics as far apart as Asia and Latin America.

Claims condemned

Catherine Hankins, chief scientific advisor to UNAids, condemned the Church's comments.

"It is very unfortunate to have this type of misinformation being broadcast," she told BBC News Online.

"It is a concern. From a technical point of view, the statements are totally incorrect.

"Latex condoms are impermeable. They do prevent HIV transmission."

The WHO also attacked the Catholic Church's comments.

"Statements like this are quite dangerous, " a spokeswoman told BBC News Online.

"We are facing a global pandemic which has already killed more than 20 million people and currently affects around 42 million.

"There is so much evidence to show that condoms don't let sexually transmitted infections like HIV through.

"Anyone who says otherwise is just wrong."

The aid agency Christian Aid also attacked the Vatican's attitude.

"Condoms are a straightforward and effective way of preventing HIV transmission and to suggest otherwise is dangerous," said Dr Rachel Baggaley, head of its HIV unit.
<<<<<<



There is nothing i can - nor dare - say.


malcolm

[I, Brian]

That does sound nasty. Ironic that the Pope is being suggested for the Nobel Peace Prize. Wouldn't that be horrible if both were true?

[sachetm]

If this is true, it is one of the most irresponsible and unChristianlike things I have ever heard.

I would, however, like to hear this from more than one source before accepting it as true.

If the Catholic Church keeps up its present course of irresponsible behavior (this and rampant pedophilia amonst priests), they're going to do themselves in.

[bob x]

Originally Posted by sachetm

I would, however, like to hear this from more than one source before accepting it as true.

Reuters
Friday, October 10, 2003; Page A23

LONDON, Oct. 9 -- A top Vatican official has told a BBC television program that, contrary to scientific advice, condoms are not effective at stopping the transmission of HIV.

"The AIDS virus is roughly 450 times smaller than the spermatozoon," Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo, president of the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family, told the BBC's "Panorama," program, whose production "Sex and the Holy City" is to air in Britain on Sunday night.

"The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom," he said. His argument is that therefore the virus that causes AIDS can pass through a condom as well and create a new infection.

The Roman Catholic Church opposes any form of artificial contraception, particularly condoms, which it says promote promiscuity. Trujillo was reinforcing the traditional opposition with arguments over condoms' efficacy.

Trujillo said that just as health authorities warn about dangers such as tobacco, they also have an obligation to issue similar warnings about condoms.

"Panorama" reporter Steve Bradshaw said in an interview that the program did not go out looking for the story, but stumbled upon it during research.

"We heard the same line so many times from different people in different places that we decided to approach the Vatican," he said.

The World Health Organization, the U.N. body handling international health issues, rejected the Vatican view.

"These incorrect statements about condoms and HIV are dangerous when we are facing a global pandemic which has already killed more than 20 million people and currently affects at least 42 million," the agency said.

It conceded that condoms could break or be damaged and permit passage of semen, but said they reduced the risk of infection by 90 percent and were certainly secure enough to prevent passage of the virus if not torn.

"Panorama" said scientific research had found that intact condoms were impermeable to particles as small as sexually transmitted infection pathogens, a view rejected by Trujillo.

"They are wrong about that," he said. "This is an easily recognizable fact."

© 2003 The Washington Post Company

[aged hippy]

Two quotes from cardinals:

"The spermatozoon can easily pass through the 'net' that is formed by the condom." - Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo

"To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin." - Cardinal Bellarmine.

Unfortunately, such people have power over the beliefs of millions of innocent human beings.

malcolm

[I, Brian]

It's funny how the Roman Catholic Church was making real progress on the public relations front recently - notably with it;s condemnation of the war on Iraq, criticisms of Middle-East events, and overall emphasis on peace. And it finally started to look as if it was taking paedophilia as a human tragedy, rather than something to be ignored.

Although I can certainly understand the drive and desire to work against promoting promiscuity, simply telling people not to use contraception is such a dangerous game to play, that could create it's own bigger human tragedy than anything we've seen before afflict the RCC. Time will tell how widespread the practice is. I guess we can simply hope that there is a recognition with the Roman Catholic Church that prevention of the spread of AIDS needs a realistic approach as much as an ideological one.

And on that note, I'll move this over to "Poilitics and Society". Hope you don't mind.

[aged hippy]

No Problem.

malcolm

[mikie8]

why flame the roman chtholic church

where in your bible does it say teh pedophile act is wrong ?

[aged hippy]

I never flamed anyone, i'm a human being that doesn't like lies being told to other human beings, and if someone likens a condom to "a net", then i class that as a LIE.
In other words, it is not the truth.

regards,


malcolm

[Vajradhara]

Originally Posted by mikie8

why flame the roman chtholic church

where in your bible does it say teh pedophile act is wrong ?

Namaste mikie8,

it doesn't need to say it in the Bible for it to be wrong. it's against the laws of society for an adult to have sexual relations of any type with a minor, at least in america. other countries have different laws about this type of thing, however, by and large, no countries permit it.

moreover, the act of having sex with children is bad enough. what makes this worse is that the adults were using their positions of authority to coerce the children into having sex. furthermore, the Bible clearly speaks against the notion of man lying with man as if with a woman.. so from that point of view, this crime was even worse!

it was only due to the large public outcry that the Vatican officially spoke out against it and has tried to accept responsiblitiy and accountability.

[aged hippy]

Um,

Paedophilia?

I thought it was about condoms and 'nets', etc.

And not telling the truth.

[mikie8]

my post was a double entre

sorry if it offended