Somethings I just can't accpet..

[kiwimac]

There can be no doubt that the picture of God in the Shi'ite / Neo-platonist faiths / philosophies can indeed be distant but equally the baha'i writings declare God to be closer that the blood in your veins.

Each religion views God in particular ways, these ways are shaped by the matrix of the faith, the world-views of the believers and of any administrative bodies which exist within them, a good example of this BTW is the divergence in views between Catholics in America and in Italy.

As well, being human, we tend to see God according to our own prejudices, the beliefs of our families and friends and of our society generally.

There is room for this divergence of vision, IMO. As a christian rapidly becoming a Zoroastrian I see Ahura Mazda's hand in all faiths and shades of belief.

Kiwimac

[arthra]

Thanks Dauer for your posts.

I don't think i've corresponded with you before... but you are most welcome here!

I was wondering if you'd care to share some of your sources for what you wrote?

"He spoke in his books at times of the evils of women and their inferiority."

How was Baha'u'llah in your mind a "complete misogynist"?

And for Postmaster:

Who wrote:

"his mistake was his view on God, he talks of God distantly"

Regarding closeness to God some quotes from the Hidden Words come to mind:

"O SON OF MAN! Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence, I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee, have engraved on thee Mine image and revealed to thee My beauty.

O SON OF MAN! I loved thy creation, hence I created thee. Wherefore, do thou love Me, that I may name thy name and fill thy soul with the spirit of life.

O SON OF BEING! Love Me, that I may love thee. If thou lovest Me not, My love can in no wise reach thee. Know this, O servant."

- From the Arabic "Hidden Words" revealed by Baha'u'llah

[farhan]

Man... Opium is a million dollar industry in Afghanistan, Iran & Pakistan . Cocaine,Marijuana is a million dollar industry in Cuba & other parts of Central America . Organ selling may be the only way to survive for a lott of africans . So should the true religion allow all of these b/c people cant live without it ??

Secondly , false prophets??Is there any unified definition for this . For Jews , every messenger after Moses is a false, for Christians , every messenger after Christ is false , for Muslims , every messenger after Mohammad is false . May be for hindus every messenger after Ram ( or Buddha ) is false . So how can U define a false prophet or a true religion ??

Thirdly , what gave U the idea that God is distant in Bahai or Islam . In Islam its said that God is nearer to U than your Juglar Vein , & he loves U more than 70 mothers . A lot of Sufis refer to God as beloved or Friend .

[dauer]

arthra,

I should have been more clear. I wasn't talking about Baha'u'lah. I was creating a parallel situation with a secular individual because in my mind if there is something to be learned from a religious figure it is just the same as learning something from a secular individual. There is no need to convert to a religion in order to take from a wise individual's writings some wisdom and insight. Even if some of the things they say go completely go against a person's outlook on the world or their morals, I do not think that this should keep a person from benefiting that wisdom which does make sense to them. In the darkest age there will be people to speak of a brightness, but even their brightness will be spoken from the dark age. So they could quite possibly reflect the concerns and biases of their times.

So my question to PM has been this: Why does it matter that Baha'u'lah is against the consumption of alcohol? Why does it matter, even, if the way he speaks of God is a little different from the way you do? If you put your mind into that age, see through his eyes so to speak, you can soak up his wisdom and bring it back with you without becoming a Bahai. It could potentially make you a better Christian.

Dauer

[Postmaster]

Secondly , false prophets??Is there any unified definition for this .

A Person of divine nature, who can see visions ect.. That preaches a word of God that’s not supposed to . A person of divine nature that sins. I would consider myself in this category. You see God is in all of us, so really the Baha'i is a false prophecy from a Christian point of view. I have a 3rd eye, I posted many instances on this forum of my experiences, I used to try rationalise that they were merely my own creation, but sometimes it's hard to explain why you know your sister is going to fall ill, or an earthquake in going to occur ect.. I know one thing and that's that we are all creatures of GOD, and I know an other thing, were not GOD. The Baha'i faith say they didn't want there miracles documented, why not? Christ was the message, shepard, the son of God ect ect.. and he proved it. Further more, Chrsitianity is the largest religion in the world, what more can be said?

[dauer]

farhan,

you are incorrect about Judaism. The prophets contained in the books of the prophets are considered true prophets and I think some people in the writings are sometimes considered prophets too. Moses is considered the greatest prophet.

The definition of a false prophet in Judaism traditionally is based on Torah. If a person says something that does not come true, he is a false prophet. If a person says something in the name of another god, even if it comes true, he is a false prophet. If he says words that go against Torah, he is a false prophet. But that is a discussion for another thread.

Dauer

[arthra]

Originally Posted by dauer

arthra,

I should have been more clear. I wasn't talking about Baha'u'lah. I was creating a parallel situation with a secular individual because in my mind if there is something to be learned from a religious figure it is just the same as learning something from a secular individual. There is no need to convert to a religion in order to take from a wise individual's writings some wisdom and insight. Even if some of the things they say go completely go against a person's outlook on the world or their morals, I do not think that this should keep a person from benefiting that wisdom which does make sense to them. ....

Dauer

Thanks for clarifying that Dauer and i kind of also gathered what you were saying.

i hope you feel welcome here to post again soon!

- Art

[arthra]

Postmaster wrote:

A Person of divine nature, who can see visions ect.. That preaches a word of God that’s not supposed to . A person of divine nature that sins. I would consider myself in this category. You see God is in all of us, so really the Baha'i is a false prophecy from a Christian point of view.

My comment:

I'm not sure how that "hangs together" Postmaster can you elaborate because your statement:

"You see God is in all of us, so really the Baha'i is a false prophecy from a Christian point of view."

I have trouble understanding your logic there.

Postmaster:

I have a 3rd eye, I posted many instances on this forum of my experiences, I used to try rationalise that they were merely my own creation, but sometimes it's hard to explain why you know your sister is going to fall ill, or an earthquake in going to occur ect.. I know one thing and that's that we are all creatures of GOD, and I know an other thing, were not GOD.

Comment:

Baha'is believe you can have spiritual experiences and i think the way you described smelling the roses earlier was really quite beautiful.

Postmaster:

The Baha'i faith say they didn't want there miracles documented, why not? Christ was the message, shepard, the son of God ect ect.. and he proved it. Further more, Chrsitianity is the largest religion in the world, what more can be said?

My reply:

Now Postmaster you may recall how the Lord Jesus was confronted by people who wanted a "sign". A sign is like a proof or for them a miracle... Do you recall what Jesus replied?

When Jesus was tempted in the wilderness the devil suggested He turn the stones into loaves because He was hungry... What was Jesus reply?

And so on....

The problem today is that people want a flashy magic show to verify their religious experience...well, that probably isn't going to happen. We're already very jaded with so many technological "miracles" these days so how's more of th same going to change our hearts?

For Baha'is the old time miracles are not in the forefront, but rather the change in hearts that we've seen in people around us. We believe miracles can occur but they are most relevant to the people experiencing them... and there are not readily or easily proved to other people... So the miracle is a personal spiritual experience for you.... If a scientist were to be skeptical though he could probably explain to you in scientific terms how this occurred or that you were hallucinating. So the miracle is in your personal spiritual experience and is not something that will necessarily be proof to any one else.

See an interesting article about the Baha'i views on miracles:

http://bahai-library.com/books/miracles/bahai.html

[didymus]

I think perhaps that the Ba'Hai faith learned from Christianity's mistakes; writing down miracles. Not to minimize them but some of the things written in the Bible are held to such literal standards(when I think many are really symbollic) by its members that there is no room for any alternate interpretation. these interpretations of scripture have grown to such extremes that you have dozens of different denominations not to mention the disagreement of the meanings of these scriptures between its own members. To see this go take a look at the christian boards. This has resulted in part to some of christianities excusiveness of others and the rejection of other forms of spiritual experiences. I think it better to leave interpretation of spritual gifts and ideas as well as divine inspiration open. This way we avoid thinking and perceiving everything from within a box.

[Postmaster]

People like Nostradames and other people with the ability to foresee the future have also had a reputation of healing but have never started a religion. Had someone like Nostradames started a religion, he'd had probably been very sucessfull. We are all Gods creatures and some of us do have divine gifts. Mostly our energies are focused on other things, like work, sport, science, philosophy and webmastry ect ect. Even long after Christianity we still see the miracles going on. There are many documented, many of the most famous ones are people being miraculously cured when they are close to death from an illness and this is even going on as the Baha'i faith is established. I would consider the new testament as literal truth and not symbolic.

[arthra]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

People like Nostradames and other people with the ability to foresee the future have also had a reputation of healing but have never started a religion. Had someone like Nostradames started a religion, he'd had probably been very sucessfull. We are all Gods creatures and some of us do have divine gifts. Mostly our energies are focused on other things, like work, sport, science, philosophy and webmastry ect ect. Even long after Christianity we still see the miracles going on. There are many documented, many of the most famous ones are people being miraculously cured when they are close to death from an illness and this is even going on as the Baha'i faith is established. I would consider the new testament as literal truth and not symbolic.

I don't think we Baha'is really have an argument with you on this Postmaster...We acknowledge miracles can occur and that there can be seers, that the supernatural world exists... We don't argue against these things.

What we're saying is that by themselves they are no longer significant as proofs of spiritual greatness to others. To the person experiencing the miracle they are proofs... but not necessarily to others.

I think what people grave today is the "miracle" of social transformation that only they can truly participate in and derive some deep spiritual fulfillment from... What we need today is a global vision of humanity that is no longer bedeviled by racial, class and caste prejudice. All of us have a stake in this transformation into a truly global society without war, that can tap the resources of the planet to meet human needs rather than fill the coffers of the large multinational mega corporations. This "miracle" and vision is what Baha'u'llah calls us to perform with the grace of God and this "miracle" is what Jesus asked His followers to pray for...nothingless than the coming of the Kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven.

- Art

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings! :-)

PM>The Baha'i faith say they didn't want there miracles documented; why not?

This is not what the Baha'i Faith says. As others have already pointed out, we freely admit the presence of miracles! :-) We are simply warned not to use them as "proofs" in teaching for the simple reason that for anyone except an eyewitness, miracles are only hearsay--and even an eyewitness may misunderstand what he saw! So while they exist, we don't stress them.

The Baha'i scriptures themselves explain this in detail--far better than I can! I commend to you:

www.bahai-library.org

If you go there and follow the links: Baha'i Writings / 'Abdu'l-Baha / Some Answered Quesitons, you'll find a whole chapter explaining the whys and wherefores of this....

PM>Christ was the message, shepard, the son of God ect ect.. and he proved it.

Just as Baha'u'llah proved HIs station through His spotless life, the hundred volumes of Baha'i scripture He wrote, His fulfillment of many prophecies in the Bible and elsewhere, and His successful prophesy of future events (this latter being a Biblical proof of a divine soul).

The Bible itself provides ample criteria, proofs and tests both of a new religion and of a prophet/Divine Messenger, and I put it to you that Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i Faith pass these tests with flying colors! (All you need to do is examine these to discover this.)

PM>Furthermore, Chrsitianity is the largest religion in the world; what more can be said?

Several things can be said!:

First off, Christ Himself said He had more to tell us for which we weren't ready, so He promosed to send the Spirit of Truth to lead us to All Truth! We Baha'is see Baha'u'llah, our Founder, as this Christ-promised Spirit of Truth--and hence, the Return of the Christ Spirit as the Bible promised!--with the new name that the Bible prophesied.

Also, while it is quite true that Christianity is indeed the largest religion in the world, it is also true 1) that the Baha'i Faith, after only a century and a half, is ALREADY the SECOND most widespread religion in the world, right after Christianity! :-) [Source: Encyclopedia Britannica].

(How big was Christianity after 162 years?)

The present-day numbers are these:

RELIGION NUMBER OF LOCALITIES
--------- ----------------------
Christianity 140,000
Baha'i Faith 110,000
all other religions 90,000 or fewer.

And it is also true 2) that the Baha'i Faith is already the fastest-growing religion among those already established in more than 100 different countries! [Source: World Christian Encyclopedia]

Not too shabby for such a short time! :-)

Oh--and did I mention that we Baha'is have adherents from over 2,100 different cultures and ethnic groups? We are in fact the largest and most culturally diverse single unified group of people on the planet!

So it seems to me that there's QUITE A BIT more to be said! . . . :-)

Best,

Bruce

[BruceDLimber]

Hi again!

PM>I would consider the new testament as literal truth and not symbolic.

Oh, REALLY?!

Then I humbly suggest to you that you're going to have quite a rough time with Jesus' "Let the dead bury the dead!"

It is quite obvious to anyone who examines the Bible in detail that many, many passages simply don't make sense if taken literally, whereas when understood spiitually they make eminent sense!

Meaning no offense, thse are just the facts as I see them . . .

Regards,

Bruce

[Postmaster]

Like I said I take the bible literally, not scientifically Everyone’s perception is different.

[BruceDLimber]

Originally Posted by Postmaster

Like I said I take the bible literally, not scientifically Everyone’s perception is different.

IOW, you DON'T take it literally!

Sorry, but this is an either-or situation: you simply can't have it both ways. Not taking parts of it literally means just that: that you don't. End of story.

Regards,

Bruce