Some concepts... and a lot of confusion!

[Ghaniel]

I need to understand

1) ...what exactly is salvation?

2) ...what exactly does it mean that one is justified through faith?

3) ...what does it mean that those who believe are 'righteous'?

4) ...are faith and works inexplicably connected and inseparable, and is salvation received only by works + faith or does one receive salvation through faith only?

I know there are different opinions on the last question, especially between Catholics and Protestants. I'm having difficulties understanding what is right and have allready thought about this. There are many passages in the Bible where it states that one is 'justified through faith, no works' - in the Romans - and it says something seemingly different elsewhere - in James chapter 2.

[path_of_one]

These are some difficult things to explain, and I would bet you will find many different responses within Christianity, not only between Protestants and Catholics but also between various denominations and ways of practicing Christianity. I'll give you my responses, but I preface them by saying these are not the doctrine of any church or denomination, but rather my own thoughts on the matter as a Christian mystic and druid. So, I come from a perspective that is rather on the liberal end of Christianity...

1. About salvation. I interpret being "saved" by God as being forgiven and embraced by the Divine. I do not think I am saved from original sin as some Christians do, because I do not believe in original sin. But I do believe I am saved from my own sin (error, wrongdoing) by the grace of God. The light of God within me, placed there by the Creator and awakened by Christ, consistently guides me back to God if I so let it, as opposed to hiding it and floundering around in the darkness. I do not believe I am saved from Satan either, but I do believe that from my practice of faith and seeking after God, I am given strength to overcome evil. I believe I am saved from my own tendencies to become lost, overwhelmed, and evil through the grace of God. And God also gives us the gift of immortality. I do not believe in a literal eternal hell or heaven, but I do believe that our sins impact us in this life and those after this one, and in seeking God and striving to unite heaven and earth, divinity and humanity, as Christ so perfectly did (and thus gave us a model to follow, though we fall short), God forgives my sins and teaches me what I need to know, comforts me, gives me strength, and allows me to unite more or less with Him/Her/It (I believe God is genderless- sort of both/neither gender). I am released by the grace of God from the bondage of my sins, which would otherwise cloud my spiritual progress and separate me from God. God's grace essentially bridges the gap between my efforts and His perfection.

2. "Justified by faith." God's grace is extended to all, and it is free for the taking. But I must turn toward God, yield to this grace, and accept it to attain salvation. At least on this particular spiritual path; I make no judgment about whether or not other paths to salvation/God work or not. Thus, it is by faith- by my own reaching out toward God- that I invite God's grace in and am thus justified/forgiven. It does not justify my actions and mistakes, but rather my spirit/soul.

3. I'm not sure what to comment on this one, so I'll leave it for now. I don't tend to ponder much on righteousness, as it is a concept I don't personally find useful. I prefer to think about right action, and perhaps that is the meaning of righteousness- I don't exactly know! For myself, though, I pray that God leads me in the "path of most harmony" or "path of right action," essentially, into action and thought that is in accordance with the will of God. I do believe that what counts is where our heart is at, not necessarily the results of our actions. If our heart is genuinely turned toward God and we do the best we can with His guidance, then in His eyes and through His grace we are made righteous. Conversely, it is not about works. We can do good works- like giving to charity- but if our hearts are in the wrong place, God knows this.

4. I believe faith and works are intertwined. That is, when we truly have faith in God and turn toward Him, we desire to do His will and thus produce good/right action. However, it is turning toward the Divine that truly yields good works- good/right in both motivation and action. I also believe that through doing good works, we may find ourselves turning toward God. That is, if we are unseflishly working for the benefit of others and cultivating compassion and loving-kindness in our hearts for others, we may find ourselves recognizing the divinity in all creation and thus God Himself. We are justified through God's grace, which comes by our invitation of it into our lives. But if we are truly living in God's grace, we will show the "fruits of the Spirit" and thus desire to cultivate right action in our lives. And thus, without works, faith is dead- not because works are needed for salvation (indeed, it is only through God's grace that salvation comes), but rather because a lack of desire for right action and for modeling one's works on Christ indicates a lack of faith. The natural outgrowth of faith is works.

Peace to you,
Path

[Bandit]

i have a few minutes for this one but will be typing real fast so pardon the typos.
I agree with Path. it is not a just cath/prot thing. it is actually heavily debated among different protestants. you have many different groups & you have catholics with protestant views & protestants with catholic views. i have been a Christian my entire life & I probably fit as a protestant with a catholic view where i see more of a package deal being offered.

from my experience & observation here is some of what i see...
you have these groups who say "accept jesus & you are saved & if you dont accept him right this minute then you go to hell." then they turn around and say you can say this prayer one minute before you die & be saved. then they turn around and make up all these rules for what you have to do to stay saved which contradicts their whole message of accept & you are saved. then they spend their entire lives going around fighting with other christians & trying to declare who is saved & who is not saved, as if they are themselves can make that judgment. then you have those who say 'once saved always saved'...but turn around & make rules of theri own.
they say all you have to do is believe & you are saved then turn around & and pull out all this dogma to throw around at each other & the groups who do not agree with the same dogma & even those 'others' who 'believe', they are going to hell. it is stupid.

Quite frankly, the accept Jesus & you are saved & if you dont do it right now you go to hell- (then jesus waves a magic wand) never made sense to me.

you have one place where Paul says saved by faith then he states i will show you my faith by my works. later paul says God forbid that we take away obedience to the law. (paraphrased) in another place james says faith without works is dead & we are also justified by works. so what people do is they throw the dice & claim the scriptures contradict by saying faith only, instead of taking it all into consideration.

so what is happening is they are ALL saying saved by faith & grace & they are ALL making there own personal stipulations on what you have to do or not do after you are saved & what you have to do prior to be saved.
i have found the ones who make the biggest issue over this are the most condemning & the most judgmental & i recommend staying clear from them. they have lost focus of the love of God & loving our brothers because they are OBSESSED & too busy trying to judge & figure out who is saved & who is not saved & trying to get people to say some prayer to be saved so they can turn around & judge them to hell for going to a movie.

so the bottom line is, everyone is saying the same thing, they just pick & choose what rules they want to attach & discard the rules they dont like.
IMO- the evangelical groups are the worse for doing this & i am glad to give that opinion.

in another place it says be ye doers of the Word & not hearers only.

So IMO- it is about what we DO & the life we live, not just what we believe or what we say we believe. if someone does not love their brother, then they dont love God. it is that simple.
thanks for allowing me to say all that!

[mee]

Originally Posted by Ghaniel

I need to understand

1) ...what exactly is salvation?

2) ...what exactly does it mean that one is justified through faith?

3) ...what does it mean that those who believe are 'righteous'?

4) ...are faith and works inexplicably connected and inseparable, and is salvation received only by works + faith or does one receive salvation through faith only?

I know there are different opinions on the last question, especially between Catholics and Protestants. I'm having difficulties understanding what is right and have allready thought about this. There are many passages in the Bible where it states that one is 'justified through faith, no works' - in the Romans - and it says something seemingly different elsewhere - in James chapter 2.

what James wrote does not conflict with what Paul taught. The Bible does not contradict itself. It only seems to when we do not understand it. James and Paul are discussing two separate and different types of works. Paul showed that the works required by the Law, circumcision, sacrifices, sabbaths, etc., could not make God’s servants righteous: "Therefore by works of law no flesh will be declared righteous before him, for by law is the accurate knowledge of sin." Such requirements of the Law were pictorial of better things, which could make one righteous. Besides, the works of the Law could be done by one without his heart’s being in it, as shown at Isaiah chapter one.—Rom. 3:20; Heb. 10:1.

Now James does not contradict this, for he is not discussing works of the Law, but rather the imperative need of backing up one’s faith by consistent works. The proverb "actions speak louder than words" might be applied here. Also, as James observes: "You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder." But while shuddering, they do not act in harmony with their belief.—Jas. 2:19

[Ghaniel]

Thanks to something wrong with this forum my whole reply to this was deleted.

I can't really spend time recalling what I wrote.

But I'd appreciate if people who reply with their suggestions base their points on actual biblical passages, not their own imagination or wishful-thinking.
Mee did this and I appreciate that. It summed up perfectly what I was discussing with my dad today.

But I need to go deeper. More input is welcome.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Ghaniel

But I'd appreciate if people who reply with their suggestions base their points on actual biblical passages, not their own imagination or wishful-thinking.

Hmm... Well, first of all, you didn't specify how you wanted the responses to be ahead of time, so you got what people felt were appropriate responses.

Secondly, I thought you were already providing some biblical passages- namely those written by James and Paul- and asking for a discussion of their interpretation. All written texts must be interpreted, and that is what I (and others) were doing. And, by the way, I could not discern any disagreement between Mee's interpretations and my own. The whole point is that righteousness and salvation are given from God's grace, which we must invite into our lives through our hearts being in the right place and seeking Him.

Thirdly, I was not replying with my own imagination or wishful thinking, and I find it offensive to imply such. Unless you think that the Holy Spirit does not lead us at all, and that God has no capacity to directly commune with us or give us insight into scripture, my responses stand. They are based on my own reading of the Bible and guidance from the Spirit. You can agree with them or not (it makes no difference to me), but please do not denigrate the power of the Holy Spirit and my faith by reducing my experience of God to "imagination" or "wishful thinking."

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Ghaniel

Thanks to something wrong with this forum my whole reply to this was deleted.

I can't really spend time recalling what I wrote.

But I'd appreciate if people who reply with their suggestions base their points on actual biblical passages, not their own imagination or wishful-thinking.
Mee did this and I appreciate that. It summed up perfectly what I was discussing with my dad today.

But I need to go deeper. More input is welcome.

yah i see that as a bit rude. i am not tossing a bunch of scriptures out like dice just for you when you can read it for yourself.
So, What is your religon?

here is some more input.
why dont you dig deeper for yourself & draw your own conclusions? or would that be wishful thinking & using your own imaginations?
if you are looking for the answer that agrees with your answer, then i guess you will keep asking the same question over & over until you get that.

Faith & WORKS go together.
My answer does not change wether you agree or not.
Maybe see a dictionary for what DO means & what BELIEVE means.
What WORK means & what FAITH means.
i hope that is not too much wishful thinking.

[wil]

why dont you dig deeper for yourself & draw your own conclusions? or would that be wishful thinking & using your own imaginations? Faith & WORKS go together.

ah now, tit for tat doesn't become any of us...

truth is some of us know where the scripture we are referencing is, others remember it, but will spend hours searching...we are all here to help each other, utilize each others skills, no?

whatta blessing it is to find such explorers in one place, and a blessing to have those that question, that allow us to pack the soil around our beliefs by trodding in circles.

we need to nurture those that are taking steps into this world, raise them up so they in turn have the faith, the knowledge and the confidence to help others...

ps, as in the past, so in the future please give me a shove when you see me slip off that path.

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by wil

ah now, tit for tat doesn't become any of us...

truth is some of us know where the scripture we are referencing is, others remember it, but will spend hours searching...we are all here to help each other, utilize each others skills, no?

whatta blessing it is to find such explorers in one place, and a blessing to have those that question, that allow us to pack the soil around our beliefs by trodding in circles.

we need to nurture those that are taking steps into this world, raise them up so they in turn have the faith, the knowledge and the confidence to help others...

ps, as in the past, so in the future please give me a shove when you see me slip off that path.

but that would be imagination & too much wishful thinking, so we will just believe & not do it.

then why dont you copy & paste a bunch of scriptures?

so if i believe i can push you what does it prove to just believe that?
so the by product of my belief in pushing you would be actually pushing you.
if you believe you can read the bible then by all means DO, read it.

to add to my experience on this, i have found most of the time, the ones who bring it up are the ones who have an issue & are trying to prove something already, rather than searching- but of course that is just from loads of experience... AND wishful thinking & imagination

[Ghaniel]

path of one, wishful-thinking was a bad wording. But I cannot accept your reply as qualified because you speak of

1) ....not believing in the original sin...

The original sin is named so in the Bible. Why not believe in it when it actually happened and because of it, Adam and Eve were thrown out of Eden and humans are where we are today?

2) ...and you believe we have many lives...

This is not consistent with the teachings of the Bible.

3) ...you do not believe in a literal meaning of Heaven and Hell.

Heaven and Hell are described as the final destinations of the world. Either you go to Heaven or you go to Hell, depending on whom you have been loyal too, God or earthliness(Satan). Heaven and Hell are actual existing things. One cannot ignore things because one doesn't agree with them. God's will comes before anyone's opinion.

However, I am very fascinated to meet a Christian druid. I think druids are peculiar. And I want to learn more about them.

Do these particular conclusions of yours come from your reading in the Bible and spiritual connection with God?

Other than that, what you have said seems to me to be very consistent with what the Bible tells us.

I am not someone who adds things to the Bible and remove things. I take it for what it is, whether I like it or not. I apologise if I seemed disrespectful.
It's just that I appreciate arguements based on biblical passages and "facts" rather than some individual belief that contradicts certain things in the Bible or are not spoken of in the Bible, such as multiple lives, that the original sin is false, and that Heaven and Hell do not (literally) exist.

I am not here to criticise anyone and to confirm answers that I allready have to my questions. I feel the need to explore the Bible together with someone else. Being alone about everything is not so fun. And I recognise things that are not biblical and react to those things.

Bandit, yes. Faith and works go together... but in what way? That's what I'm trying to find out.

Do you need to constantly do good works to gain salvation?
Some Catholics believe this, as well as Lutherans. Do you need to seek out situations in which you can do good, in order to please God and deserve salvation?

Or is salvation guaranteed by believing?

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by Ghaniel

I am not here to criticise anyone and to confirm answers that I allready have to my questions. I feel the need to explore the Bible together with someone else. Being alone about everything is not so fun. And I recognise things that are not biblical and react to those things.

Bandit, yes. Faith and works go together... but in what way? That's what I'm trying to find out.

Do you need to constantly do good works to gain salvation?
Some Catholics believe this, as well as Lutherans. Do you need to seek out situations in which you can do good, in order to please God and deserve salvation?

Or is salvation guaranteed by believing?

when it comes down to the wire, it going to be just you, God & the Bible. so it does not matter what anyone says, at some point you have to decide for yourself. I commend you on your openess to want to study with others, just know that not everyone sees everything the same.

you should realize there are Christians who do believe in reincarnation, & I personally see it as a possiblity- not this aboslute yes or no dogma. what you choose to believe is your business. i dont think it is wise to flat out reject & undermind someone elses experiences especially if you dont even know them.
i dont tell people what to believe or not to believe. so when you start out by saying I need to understand, then tell someone what they see or have experienced is wishful thinking...well, then this is what happens.
but enough of that.

by what you have said, you already have your answer, (?) you just want people to confirm your answer, (?)

simple analogy-
you are saved because someone gives you a great paying job.
do you just sit at home and believe? OR do you get off your duff & go DO some work?

obviously, you go to work. if you dont go to work then you dont get paid. you go to work & get lazy & start calling in sick every day, showing up late, you eventually get fired & there goes your salvation.
you do a good job & follow the rules of your employer, then you stay saved & keep your job.

it appears to me you are going for the Gold here, & will now enter the WHAT EVERYONE HAS TO DO, TO BE SAVED & THEN WHAT EVERYONE HAS TO DO TO STAY SAVED, & if they dont do it, then they go to hell...(which by the way, that knock down drag out debate is included in my original post).
I have my beliefs, starting with Acts 2:38 & the death burial, resurrection of Jesus Christ.
they are not as black & white as a lot of organizations come up with.
you dont tell me what to do to be saved & stay saved & i wont tell you what to do to be saved because all that definately starts WAR with people.
i am not interested in that debate. if you ever have personal questions & are not sure what to do, you will always get an honest answer from me, with a multiple choice type of a reply.
not sure what you mean by constantly searching for some kind of work situations to be saved, i would say the answers to that are all in your Bible & dont be so hard on yourself. though it is not a bad thing to feel like you want to do more for the Kingdom, because God just may be trying to direct you into something.


also, now that i have answered your question, would you be so kind to answer mine. or do you just ask the questions but dont answer questions.

1)What religion do you belong to?
if you would answer that, then i can tell you what you believe.

pardon me, but i have some WORK to DO & it is not going to get done by just believing, unless I go DO IT. However, faith is a powerful thing & the work wont get done without it & sometimes God does His own work in & through us because of our faith.
so have fun Ghaniel & welcome to CR

[Bandit]

one more thing for you to consider Ghaniel
i see salvation as a process & a package deal, not this one time shot of "I am saved type of thing"

i think every time i see that in the scriptures, it says 'shall be saved' it has a present & future tense to it.

like a seed that grows. you dont get apples the first year you start growing, but will eventually reach a perfected state with strong roots & this comes only through the blood of the Lamb & is only because of the blood of the Lamb. At some point we all go through Jesus to get there & we listen to his voice & we follow Him into the fold & if we are smart we will stay in the fold because Jesus is the one who keeps us safe & takes us to heaven.
Faith cometh by hearing & hearing by the Word of God. So i think it is possible to do this by staying in the Word & staying in prayer.

Salvation to me means eternal life. At the same time we can feel it & know it is real because of the Holy Ghost. So if we are still in the flesh then we are waiting for that day of the promise of eternal life.
So, if you keep your eyes on Jesus, you can't go wrong.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by Ghaniel

path of one, wishful-thinking was a bad wording. But I cannot accept your reply as qualified because you speak of

1) ....not believing in the original sin...

The original sin is named so in the Bible. Why not believe in it when it actually happened and because of it, Adam and Eve were thrown out of Eden and humans are where we are today?

2) ...and you believe we have many lives...

This is not consistent with the teachings of the Bible.

3) ...you do not believe in a literal meaning of Heaven and Hell.

Heaven and Hell are described as the final destinations of the world. Either you go to Heaven or you go to Hell, depending on whom you have been loyal too, God or earthliness(Satan). Heaven and Hell are actual existing things. One cannot ignore things because one doesn't agree with them. God's will comes before anyone's opinion.

Actually, all three are biblically consistent, depending on your interpretation of scripture in light of Judaic text, culture, and history. If you search back through my posts, you'll find me discussing at least some of these concepts (and the reasons for my interpretations of scripture) at length. But I think in this post you just proved Bandit's point- you are not out for others' answers, but rather confirmation of your own beliefs. You already had the answers to your own questions from the beginning. And so my guess is that you are not actually interested that much in my beliefs or the reasons for them (and the scriptural basis), unless it is to debate them, which I just don't have time for right now- I'm in the middle of my dissertation and very busy. I have had time in the past, and you can find such debates in my posts (as well as countless books on all three subjects, church history, and the interpretation of scripture- better to go to original sourcers and draw your own conclusions), but all in all I think it's irrelevant compared to both of us loving Jesus and following in His holy example. So I wish you peace on your path and only ask that you give the same respect to me.

However, I am very fascinated to meet a Christian druid. I think druids are peculiar. And I want to learn more about them.

I suppose druids are peculiar to those who don't know any. If you would like to learn more about modern druidry and Christianity, I would suggest beginning with several excellent web articles on the site www.druidry.org. There are Christian druids, Pagan druids, Buddhist druids, and so on. Druidry, the way I practice it, is not religion but rather a path. I've also got a few posts describing my combo of the two if you look them up under my profile. Somewhere back in the forums I gave my testimony, I believe under the title "Alternative Christian" something, too.

Do these particular conclusions of yours come from your reading in the Bible and spiritual connection with God?

Yes. And studying (as much as I'm able) church history, apochryphal documents, Judaism (and its history), the languages of Aramaic, Hebrew, and Greek (a lot less than I'd like, but I try to at least get the basics of how they differ from English and what things mean in context). I study a bunch of other stuff too, but I wouldn't consider it directly relevant to biblical interpretation. However, my spirituality has certainly been enhanced and my perspective broadened by studying Buddhist, Taoist, Confucian, and Hindu texts, ancient mythology, anthropology, and modern physics.

Other than that, what you have said seems to me to be very consistent with what the Bible tells us. I am not someone who adds things to the Bible and remove things. I take it for what it is, whether I like it or not.

At the risk of starting a debate, I will say that I don't think the Bible tells us anything directly. It is a text, and hence must be interpreted. We "hear" what the Bible has to say through our own cultural, historical, and religious biases. And everyone has these. The hope that comes with the Holy Spirit is that God will help us to interpret the text and transcend (at least partially) these biases and clouded thinking. I think He gave us reason to help us as well. In the end, though, I personally think there is no one right answer when it comes to biblical interpretation, though I'm sure you'd disagree. I think the point is for us to learn, through the text, how to directly commune with God, how to become better people, and how to work for God's kingdom on earth. Maybe for some, it is necessary for their spiritual growth and becoming closer to God to believe in original sin. For others, it may not be. This is why I don't think I'm right, I just think the beliefs I have are right for me, at least until God reveals something new for me to incorporate. I'm always open to change, unless it contradicts my own spiritual experience of the Holy Spirit. But even if others' beliefs do so, I can't see why not their experience can't be right for them, and mine right for me. God created us each unique and I believe communes with us each differently, just as loving and wise parents will respond to each child differently, based on his/her gifts, flaws, and personalities.

Do you need to constantly do good works to gain salvation?
Some Catholics believe this, as well as Lutherans. Do you need to seek out situations in which you can do good, in order to please God and deserve salvation?

Or is salvation guaranteed by believing?

I think I already gave my response. Salvation is attained not through believing, or through doing, but through God's grace alone. The way we attain this grace is by turning toward Him- not our beliefs, but our faith. There is a difference. Beliefs are how we think God, the universe, and whatnot work. Faith is our personal outreach toward God, our desire to get closer to Him. The natural outgrowth of faith is spiritual experience, which yields our beliefs (our interpretations of sacred text and our experiences), and also good works, because in faith we desire to please God.

And by the way, not sure where you got the idea about Lutherans. I don't know about Catholics, but I was raised Lutheran and half my family still are, and I never heard that belief. All the Lutherans I know believe they are saved by faith and God's grace.

[lunamoth]

Actually I liked both Path_of_One's and Bandit's original replies. I found them both enriching.

But I have a question. I did not think that either original sin or the concept of hell as a physical place one goes to after death are found in the Bible. I'm pretty sure that original sin is a theology by Augustine. And I, Brian has a good essay on hell in the bible here.
I'm not saying that the ideas of original sin and a physical hell are not valid, I'm just saying that they are not literally out of the Bible. Do you have evidence otherwise?

peace,
lunamoth

Originally Posted by Ghaniel

1) ....not believing in the original sin...

The original sin is named so in the Bible. Why not believe in it when it actually happened and because of it, Adam and Eve were thrown out of Eden and humans are where we are today?

2) ...and you believe we have many lives...

This is not consistent with the teachings of the Bible.

3) ...you do not believe in a literal meaning of Heaven and Hell.

Heaven and Hell are described as the final destinations of the world. Either you go to Heaven or you go to Hell, depending on whom you have been loyal too, God or earthliness(Satan). Heaven and Hell are actual existing things. One cannot ignore things because one doesn't agree with them. God's will comes before anyone's opinion.

[Faithfulservant]

I think I understand where Ghaniel is coming from.. I consider myself an apologist and I take the bible literally rather than just text.. This is my take on the faith/works issue.

We are saved by faith and faith without works is dead.. Sounds like a contradiction but consider what "works" is. We are the body of Christ each part is a functioning piece for the edification of the church and of God. Every day we question whether we are serving God and serving our fellow man in essence we are working for our Master.

I have had some intense discussions with ppl about this.. and consider this.. When you accept Christ as your savior you become a new creation and this new creation is different from the old one. You have given your life to God and in doing so you change.. its inevitable. Our branches are pruned.. Our sins become evident as we mature as Christians.. We recognize the will of God as opposed to our own will. Part of that growth is serving God and a term for that is "works" It doesnt affect our salvation.. but to get the most out of our relationship with God we have to remove ourselves from the throne and put God on it giving Him complete authority over our lives. Christ gave His life for us.. in turn we give our lives to Him. Its a wonderful tradeoff.