Smoke on Mount Sinai

[bananabrain]

damn.

you gettin' mystical on my ass.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Bandit]

Hey Bananna

bandit - you appear to be saying that you want to know about the smoke on mt sinai and other physical manifestations of the Divine so you can validate your experiences of 'seeing spirits'?

No. That is only a very tiny part of it. I don't need any validation at all for the things God has shown me. I personally want to know God better so I can love Him better by trying to understand Him. The only way I know how to do it and grow is by studying His written Word and do my best to live for Him. The pillar was the only guide they had for 40 years.

But so far I have no reason to not beleive that what they saw was literally the spirit or a portion of the spirit of God or possibly a manifestation of an angel. The smoke appears to have a fire within it (but not a literal fire) also which could be seen by night, but not during the day. I find angels more prominent in the bible with this fire they saw, than I find angels in smoke/clouds.
In the day it was only a cloud. In a pillar, which suggests that it was upright.
The cloud was there when they were to camp. It removed itself when they were to travel. That is how I see it, so far
I have no reason to believe that what they saw was not real or that a story teller made it up. Maybe something like this picture>

at no point have i come across anyone who wonders about what colour the smoke was, or what colour the flames of the burning bush were!

I did mention this earlier, but so far there is nothing mentioned in the passages about a specific color. So smoke and cloud is normally white, gray black...

[dauer]

Bandit, do you need to understand God in order to love Him? At what level do you believe that you are capable of understanding God? Do you believe there are finite answers to questions about the infinite?

Even Moses sees most clearly God's wake, God's back, what is left behind after God has passed. What is left behind after God has passed? It is the effect on the world by God that we can examine. But you seem to be equating what is found on earth with God. Correct me if I am incorrectly stating your position.

Dauer

[Bandit]

Ok guys, Here is some more If any verses do not match up, let me know and I will search them again.

When you have time let me know what you see and what you find by way of other Jewish interpretations with links the same way you have been doing. It is greatly appreciated.



Ex.40:32 When they went into the tent of the congregation, and when they came near unto the altar, they washed; as the LORD commanded Moses.

33 And he reared up the court round about the tabernacle and the altar, and set up the hanging of the court gate. So Moses finished the work.

34 Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

35 And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

36 And when the cloud was taken up from over the tabernacle, the children of Israel went onward in all their journeys:

37 But if the cloud were not taken up, then they journeyed not till the day that it was taken up. 38 For the cloud of the LORD was upon the tabernacle by day, and fire was on it by night, in the sight of all the house of Israel, throughout all their journeys.

Here it is inside of the Holy of Holies---



Lev 16:2 And the LORD said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat.

3 Thus shall Aaron come into the holy place: with a young bullock for a sin offering, and a ram for a burnt offering.

4 He shall put on the holy linen coat, and he shall have the linen breeches upon his flesh, and shall be girded with a linen girdle, and with the linen mitre shall he be attired: these are holy garments; therefore shall he wash his flesh in water, and so put them on.

Back to the journey---



Num9:15 And on the day that the tabernacle was reared up the cloud covered the tabernacle, namely, the tent of the testimony: and at even there was upon the tabernacle as it were the appearance of fire, until the morning.

16 So it was alway: the cloud covered it by day, and the appearance of fire by night.

17 And when the cloud was taken up from the tabernacle, then after that the children of Israel journeyed: and in the place where the cloud abode, there the children of Israel pitched their tents.

18 At the commandment of the LORD the children of Israel journeyed, and at the commandment of the LORD they pitched: as long as the cloud abode upon the tabernacle they rested in their tents.

19 And when the cloud tarried long upon the tabernacle many days, then the children of Israel kept the charge of the LORD, and journeyed not.

20 And so it was, when the cloud was a few days upon the tabernacle; according to the commandment of the LORD they abode in their tents, and according to the commandment of the LORD they journeyed.



Here it shows they traveled at day and at night and there was no set time for them to travel or to camp----



21 And so it was, when the cloud abode from even unto the morning, and that the cloud was taken up in the morning, then they journeyed: whether it was by day or by night that the cloud was taken up, they journeyed. 22 Or whether it were two days, or a month, or a year, that the cloud tarried upon the tabernacle, remaining thereon, the children of Israel abode in their tents, and journeyed not: but when it was taken up, they journeyed.



10:11 And it came to pass on the twentieth day of the second month, in the second year, that the cloud was taken up from off the tabernacle of the testimony.

12 And the children of Israel took their journeys out of the wilderness of Sinai; and the cloud rested in the wilderness of Paran.

13 And they first took their journey according to the commandment of the LORD by the hand of Moses.
Here it shows the Lord speaking from the cloud, suddenly---.


Numb.12:4 And the LORD spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation. And they three came out.

5 And the LORD came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.

6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
Here we still see it appearing inside the temple in Solomons time as they gave praise and thanks to the Lord----
2Chr.5:13 It came even to pass, as the trumpeters and singers were as one, to make one sound to be heard in praising and thanking the LORD; and when they lifted up their voice with the trumpets and cymbals and instruments of musick, and praised the LORD, saying, For he is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: that then the house was filled with a cloud, even the house of the LORD;

Here we see Nehemiah speaking about it for the people, how God delivered them and and cared for them with manna and instruction----


Neh9:19 Yet thou in thy manifold mercies forsookest them not in the wilderness: the pillar of the cloud departed not from them by day, to lead them in the way; neither the pillar of fire by night, to shew them light, and the way wherein they should go.

20 Thou gavest also thy good spirit to instruct them, and withheldest not thy manna from their mouth, and gavest them water for their thirst.

21 Yea, forty years didst thou sustain them in the wilderness, so that they lacked nothing; their clothes waxed not old, and their feet swelled not.



Here is fire that literally burns with Joshua and Rahab. It is the same word used in the pillar. (?)

Josh6:23 And the young men that were spies went in, and brought out Rahab, and her father, and her mother, and her brethren, and all that she had; and they brought out all her kindred, and left them without the camp of Israel. 24 And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein: only the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD.

Here smoke is used figuratively, but it is the same word-----

Deut.29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.

Here smoke is used literally at the ambush of Ai where it was burnt with fire. This is a different smoke

Joshua 8:19 And the ambush arose quickly out of their place, and they ran as soon as he had stretched out his hand: and they entered into the city, and took it, and hasted and set the city on fire.
20 And when the men of Ai looked behind them, they saw, and, behold, the smoke of the city ascended up to heaven, and they had no power to flee this way or that way: and the people that fled to the wilderness turned back upon the pursuers.
21 And when Joshua and all Israel saw that the ambush had taken the city, and that the smoke of the city ascended, then they turned again, and slew the men of Ai.






I have just a few more passages from Kings and Ezekial after we look at these. Plus a closer look at cloud as in precipitation. I dont see a need to look at every time the word is used, at least not right now.



Then after that we can look closer at the burning bush/bramble which did not actually burn and where the goat was found for Abrahams offering.



Thanks again for looking into these for me .

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by dauer

Bandit, do you need to understand God in order to love Him? At what level do you believe that you are capable of understanding God? Do you believe there are finite answers to questions about the infinite?

Even Moses sees most clearly God's wake, God's back, what is left behind after God has passed. What is left behind after God has passed? It is the effect on the world by God that we can examine. But you seem to be equating what is found on earth with God. Correct me if I am incorrectly stating your position.

Dauer

Because that is how much I love Him. I want to know Him and I desire to know Him in spirit and in Truth. The word is very clear to me that we can seek God and He will show His ways to us. I also see that He wants to abide in a place. That place is not space or infinite time but in the hearts, spirit and mind of men who love Him and seek Him.

Do you believe there are finite answers to questions about the infinite?

No that is not how I see it. I see the answers are infinite and unmeasurable to Gods wisdom and that is why I love Him and seek Him in all His ways. Ways that I may never fully understand, but I can try. Because He has given me His spirit and I believe that is what He wants us to do.

But you seem to be equating what is found on earth with God. Correct me if I am incorrectly stating your position.

I think some things on earth can be equated, or compared with God to a degree. But God is a spirit and that is how we must seek Him. In spirit, not a distant thing.
Man was made in Gods image, so there we have something else that can be looked at as to what God is about.
I see the whole journey of man from Adam to us as Gods pride and joy. God considers Man the highest being/thing He ever made. Higher than Angels.

I did read your answers Dauer about God. And thanks for answering. We do see God quite a bit differently on some things. But maybe there is more common ground over time that we will share.

I see the bible different than most today. I find it a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. Not my sidewalk or driveway, but for spiritual eyes. I see the bibe as food for my hungry soul and water that quinches my thirsty spirit.
Not as in wheat bread or Evian water.

The OT was a physical walk with God. The NT brought a better covenant and lets us walk in the spirit. The way God worked in the OT is a little different today. I see that God literally wants to live in us, not just WITH or sometimes ABOUT, but all the time IN us.
The battles were physical battles in the OT. The battles I see today are wars in the mind and in spirit within individuals.
So I study the OT ways of God then I can compare the physical things from that time to the spiritual things of now. And I believe that is why we have the bible today as they did not have it then.

Bandit, do you need to understand God in order to love Him?

I can never fully understand all of God. He is TOO BIG and vast. I will only ever know very little about Him compared to his mass wisdom. But everything I learn is joy that I cannot explain.

How can you truly Love someone with all your heart if you do not understand any of there ways? How can you fully please someone unless you know what they like and what makes them happy?

[dauer]

Originally Posted by Bandit

I also see that He wants to abide in a place. That place is not space or infinite time but in the hearts, spirit and mind of men who love Him and seek Him.

Are you saying that I understand God as dwelling in space or infinite time or is that just how you thought I was implying you understood God?

No that is not how I see it. I see the answers are infinite and unmeasurable to Gods wisdom and that is why I love Him and seek Him in all His ways. Ways that I may never fully understand, but I can try. Because He has given me His spirit and I believe that is what He wants us to do.

So what are God's ways based on Tanach? Are the ways by which He lives, the ways by which He acts upon the world, the ways by which He wishes us to act?

Man was made in Gods image, so there we have something else that can be looked at as to what God is about.

In Judaism tzelem is not understood as a reference to the physical, although I do not know how you understand it.

I see the whole journey of man from Adam to us as Gods pride and joy. God considers Man the highest being/thing He ever made. Higher than Angels.

Are we higher than angels, or are we capable of becoming higher than angels? Of course in Judaism angels are stationary because they have no free will, while man is capable of climbing higher through free will.

I did read your answers Dauer about God. And thanks for answering. We do see God quite a bit differently on some things. But maybe there is more common ground over time that we will share.

I am sure there is some overlap that gets lost in translation.

I see the bible different than most today. I find it a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. Not my sidewalk or driveway, but for spiritual eyes. I see the bibe as food for my hungry soul and water that quinches my thirsty spirit.
Not as in wheat bread or Evian water.

So what do you do with this food and water? Why?

The OT was a physical walk with God. The NT brought a better covenant and lets us walk in the spirit.

Would you care to present evidence to back that up or are you just going to make uninformed assumptions?

The way God worked in the OT is a little different today. I see that God literally wants to live in us, not just WITH or sometimes ABOUT, but all the time IN us.

This isn't something new. The shekhinah, God's indwelling presence, is an old idea.

The battles were physical battles in the OT. The battles I see today are wars in the mind and in spirit within individuals.

Are you entirely sure of that? Or are you generalizing again?

So I study the OT ways of God then I can compare the physical things from that time to the spiritual things of now. And I believe that is why we have the bible today as they did not have it then.

How do we have the bible today in a way they did not have it then?

I can never fully understand all of God. He is TOO BIG and vast.

Are you implying spatiality?

I will only ever know very little about Him compared to his mass wisdom. But everything I learn is joy that I cannot explain.

Some things need not go beyond experience.

How can you truly Love someone with all your heart if you do not understand any of there ways?

What are God's ways, that we should walk in them?

How can you fully please someone unless you know what they like and what makes them happy?

It is one thing to know what someone desires. It is another thing to know their true nature. From my position on God, I would not assume to know what God desires, except perhaps an increase in oneness among the many creatures of the universe. So this means getting along, not all becoming alike. Helping one another. Anything else is for my benefit. Helping other people is for my benefit too, but not only.



In response to your other post, I would suggest you just go look through the same website I linked you to earlier and then come back wiith questions.


Dauer

[dauer]

Bump.

[Bandit]

It is one thing to know what someone desires. It is another thing to know their true nature. From my position on God, I would not assume to know what God desires, except perhaps an increase in oneness among the many creatures of the universe. So this means getting along, not all becoming alike. Helping one another. Anything else is for my benefit. Helping other people is for my benefit too, but not only.

I cannot answer all your questions for you. You will have to seek them out on your own in things pertaining to the relationship between God and man (between God and yourself) and the way it was and the way it is now.
Some things are the same and some things have indeed changed. No one walked around with a bible under there arm in the OT or the NT. There was no such thing for everyone to have it to study and read whenever they wanted. It was kept in the temple then put away right after it was read to the public.

So this is all I have...and may God direct your paths Dauer, in the paths He wants for you to take.

Psalm 27:1 The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

Psalm 34:4 I sought the LORD, and he heard me, and delivered me from all my fears.

Psalm 37:4 Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.

Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

Isaiah 26:3 You will keep in perfect peace him whose mind is steadfast, because he trusts in you.

Isaiah 51:12 I, even I, am he that comforteth you: who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die, and of the son of man which shall be made as grass;

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Jeremiah 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

In response to your other post, I would suggest you just go look through the same website I linked you to earlier and then come back wiith questions.

I think all my questions have been answered. Thanks for your help and efforts and responses, and also for hooking me up with the website

[dauer]

Originally Posted by Bandit

I cannot answer all your questions for you. You will have to seek them out on your own in things pertaining to the relationship between God and man (between God and yourself) and the way it was and the way it is now.

I was not asking for your help. I was trying to understand your position.

Some things are the same and some things have indeed changed. No one walked around with a bible under there arm in the OT or the NT. There was no such thing for everyone to have it to study and read whenever they wanted. It was kept in the temple then put away right after it was read to the public.

Not during the late second temple period. By that time, at least, there were people studying the text.

Proverbs 3:5-6 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

It is very possible that this proverb was written by the kings in order to subdue the masses. It also reflects an earlier time when myth was the real science, and real science was a myth.

I think all my questions have been answered. Thanks for your help and efforts and responses, and also for hooking me up with the website

No problem.

Dauer

[Bandit]

I was not asking for your help. I was trying to understand your position.

ok. try again. I guess I do not understand what position. All my positions on spiritual matters and mostly daily living are from the 66 books and I see no myth in it as some suggest.

so i will always be coming from that.
so ask again.

man, I am coming down with a nasty fever, cough and soar throat from something, so i may not come on for a couple of days just to get some rest. so be patient.

[dauer]

Originally Posted by Bandit

ok. try again. I guess I do not understand what position. All my positions on spiritual matters and mostly daily living are from the 66 books and I see no myth in it as some suggest.

But as you are aware, there are many positions that people come to, all claiming to refer to the same books you do. Therefore, I ask for your specific position and have posed specific questions. In the interest of this dialogue it may be better not to delve into your views on the nature of the Tanach as I find them mildly offensive and will continue to challenge you on them when you bring them up. If you wish to start another thread about what it is that Jews find in the mitzvot, and where they gain their support for this position, that is fine too. But it really doesn't fit with the rest of the thread. If you scroll up, you can see my specific questions.

man, I am coming down with a nasty fever, cough and soar throat from something, so i may not come on for a couple of days just to get some rest. so be patient.

No! I will not be patient! This thread should be more important to you than life itself! than...life...itself.

I am also afflicted with an illness of sorts, though of a different nature. I hope you have a speedy recovery.

Dauer

[bananabrain]

I don't need any validation at all for the things G!D has shown me.

i don't know about you, but i am far from comfortable relying on my own judgement alone for correct interpretation of sense-data.

But so far I have no reason to not believe that what they saw was literally the spirit or a portion of the spirit of G!D or possibly a manifestation of an angel.

in fact, the Text itself states that it was G!D acting directly and not through an intermediary that brought the israelites out of egypt, as it says in exodus 12:12. the passover haggadah expands on this midrashically, stating: "I [G!D] will Pass through the land of Egypt on that night, I and not an angel; I will Smite all the first born in the land of Egypt, I and not a seraph; and against all the gods of Egypt I will Execute judgement, I, and not a messenger."

however, the pillar of cloud and the pillar of fire were not literally the "spirit of G!D" ("for no-one may see Me and live") but manifestations of G!D's *will* through the natural world. again, i don't really see how this helps you with a practical observance of the will of G!D.

How can you truly Love someone with all your heart if you do not understand any of their ways? How can you fully please someone unless you know what they like and what makes them happy?

we ourselves fulfil the will of G!D through our observance of G!D's commandments as stated in the Text itself - that's how we know we're doing what we're supposed to do, because G!D told us explicitly what that was. it's not rocket science - we know exactly what G!D wants us to do, albeit some of it is a bit peculiar, but hey, if it makes G!D happy, who are we to complain?

exodus 40:34 appears to be talking about two different things. one is an 'ashan or cloud, the other is the "glory of G!D", kavod haShem which is not a vaporous manifestation but a spiritual one. so perhaps it's a sort of "cloud of light" - i don't really know. it seems to me, though, that the cloud is actually the cloud from the burning of the qetoret (incense) a few verses previously; the incense is burned every day and the glory of G!D is able to manifest because of the resulting cloud that obscures it, whilst at the same time making it last longer at some times.

i'd therefore assume that the cloud that appeared in the [first] Temple was also a result of the burning of the qetoret and that the Shechinah manifested within this cloud. in the second Temple, of course, the qetoret was still burned, but the Shechinah no longer manifested.

No one walked around with a bible under their arm in the OT or the NT. There was no such thing for everyone to have it to study and read whenever they wanted. It was kept in the temple then put away right after it was read to the public.

on the contrary, moses wrote the original Torah down over time - this was then kept in the Ark with the stone tablets. similarly, there are references in joshua to writing things down in books, as well as there being a law for the kind to write a Torah scroll and carry it with him everywhere. a lot of them didn't do that, obviously, but when it was being done, it was being done. i don't think you know what you're talking about.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Bandit]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i don't know about you, but i am far from comfortable relying on my own judgement alone for correct interpretation of sense-data.


in fact, the Text itself states that it was G!D acting directly and not through an intermediary that brought the israelites out of egypt, as it says in exodus 12:12. the passover haggadah expands on this midrashically, stating: "I [G!D] will Pass through the land of Egypt on that night, I and not an angel; I will Smite all the first born in the land of Egypt, I and not a seraph; and against all the gods of Egypt I will Execute judgement, I, and not a messenger."

however, the pillar of cloud and the pillar of fire were not literally the "spirit of G!D" ("for no-one may see Me and live") but manifestations of G!D's *will* through the natural world. again, i don't really see how this helps you with a practical observance of the will of G!D.


we ourselves fulfil the will of G!D through our observance of G!D's commandments as stated in the Text itself - that's how we know we're doing what we're supposed to do, because G!D told us explicitly what that was. it's not rocket science - we know exactly what G!D wants us to do, albeit some of it is a bit peculiar, but hey, if it makes G!D happy, who are we to complain?

exodus 40:34 appears to be talking about two different things. one is an 'ashan or cloud, the other is the "glory of G!D", kavod haShem which is not a vaporous manifestation but a spiritual one. so perhaps it's a sort of "cloud of light" - i don't really know. it seems to me, though, that the cloud is actually the cloud from the burning of the qetoret (incense) a few verses previously; the incense is burned every day and the glory of G!D is able to manifest because of the resulting cloud that obscures it, whilst at the same time making it last longer at some times.

i'd therefore assume that the cloud that appeared in the [first] Temple was also a result of the burning of the qetoret and that the Shechinah manifested within this cloud. in the second Temple, of course, the qetoret was still burned, but the Shechinah no longer manifested.


on the contrary, moses wrote the original Torah down over time - this was then kept in the Ark with the stone tablets. similarly, there are references in joshua to writing things down in books, as well as there being a law for the kind to write a Torah scroll and carry it with him everywhere. a lot of them didn't do that, obviously, but when it was being done, it was being done. i don't think you know what you're talking about.

b'shalom

bananabrain

This is a very big assumption(s) Banana. Who are you to judge others on there practical observance in the will of God or what an individual is searching for in the scriptures.

On the contrary I forgot the Joshua Xerox machine that printed millions of copies in over 100 languages and the AronUPS trucks that distributed them across the planet.


If the pillar was God or an angel or both it is not an issue for me.
Exodus 14:19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:

You have not added anything that I have not already considered. Thank you for you attention and time.

[Bandit]

I was trying to understand your position.

I don't think it is possible for me to explain my position to you on God or the bible or if I did, I don't think you would understand what I am trying to say about it. That does not mean you would not try to see my position through reasoning. Respectfully rather, I am not going to try and explain it.

I have decided not to answer the questions except for the one below, for the reason you have stated that something I have said you find offensive.

Are you implying spatiality?

I am implying- ALL. Everything. The whole of the matter.

There is nothing else for me to add to the thread at this time.
Thanks again Dauer for your support in the thread.
I hope you get to feeling better soon also.

[dauer]

Bandit, your response is unclear to me. What is the matter that you are implying, and how are you implying it wholly? It would be much easier if, rather than implying, you clearly stated what you mean about the nature of God without using statements that could be misunderstood.

Do you believe God changes? What is the relationship between God and space? How much can you speak of God without betraying God to a false definition (and in this I am asking for an explanation of God.)? I think my questions have been fairly straightforward.

Dauer