Slowly ending samsara

Fayebelle · 12-20-2004, 04:07 PM

Please remember that I'm new to Buddhism- but I had a thought this weekend and I wanted other opinions on it.

Lately, more and more animals are on the "protected" or "endangered" species list b/c their #'s are dwindling. Here in the West- more and more women are choosing not to have children or else to adopt rather than go thru actual pregnancy. Families that DO have children are more often keeping their families to 1 or 2 kids. Abortion is a choice that many women are accepting.

Could this be b/c more beings are acheiving enlightenment and therefore there is no need for them to be reincarnated? There are fewer species b/c they just aren't needed any longer? Maternal instinct is being altered so that there are not more children then necessary?

Just some thoughts I had- I'd appreciate any feedback.

Sacredstar · 12-20-2004, 04:29 PM

Dear Fayebelle

hmm..interesting perspective from a multi-dimensional viewpoint and one I had not considered, it is a possibility as we continue to break the never ending wheel of reincarnation due to karma.

For sure the planet is going through great evolution and transition. The tree is dying due to its roots rotting with selfishness, so enlightened I feel not.

Humanity is killing itself like other cultures have done in the past, destroyed but its own hand.

But I will be interested in the strictly Buddhist view on this.

Love beyond measure

Sacredstar

Vajradhara · 12-21-2004, 04:47 PM

Namaste Fayebelle,

thank you for the post and welcome to the forum.

it's an interesting question, to be sure, and one which lends itself to a few answers.

nominally, Buddhism is concerened with the Multiverse, as such, a lack of sentient beings on one particular planet, like earth, is fairly inconsequential.

a lot of this would be predicated on your own school of Buddhism and the particular Vehicle that you choose to practice. for instance, the Theravedan view is a bit more.. restricted, to this particular planet than the Varjayana view, by way of contrast.

Fayebelle · 12-21-2004, 05:13 PM

Thank you all for your comments!

I actually spoke to my instructor last night and she pointed out that although many species are headed for extinction- many new forms are evolving. Furthermore- the exact animal is not important- it's the classification that counts- human, higher animal, etc.... Therefore a tiger is no better than a cat so it does not matter that a tiger becomes extinct (as long as we treat the tiger as equals and do not hurry it's extinction in any way)

errr- she explained it much better than I just did - I hope you can see the point.

Vajradhara · 12-21-2004, 05:27 PM

Namaste Fayebelle,

thank you for the post.

yes, this is true. i'm not prone to provide explanations like that unless i have a more firm understanding of someone relative exposure to the teachings.

from the point of view of Buddhist rebirth, there could be no humans or animals left, yet, beings would still exist in the higher and lower planes.

this is a bit of a metaphysical explanation and not all Buddhist schools adhere to this view.

I, Brian · 12-22-2004, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fayebelle

Thank you all for your comments!

I actually spoke to my instructor last night and she pointed out that although many species are headed for extinction- many new forms are evolving. Furthermore- the exact animal is not important- it's the classification that counts- human, higher animal, etc.... Therefore a tiger is no better than a cat so it does not matter that a tiger becomes extinct (as long as we treat the tiger as equals and do not hurry it's extinction in any way)

errr- she explained it much better than I just did - I hope you can see the point.

A fascinating idea that attracts and repels!

For some really sad reading, you could always check out Extinction Watch - a very recent project that aims to catelogue stories of our current extinction events.

Sacredstar · 12-22-2004, 01:40 AM

I would be interested to know exactly what new forms are evolving. I haven't seen any recently that have replaced any that have been lost. And cloning does not count.....

being love

Sacredstar

Fayebelle · 12-22-2004, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sacredstar

And cloning does not count.....

Why doesn't cloning count? Aren't clones living beings?

As for new beings- many conservation projects are creating very subtley altered subspecies of the animal they are trying to protect. An example would be the FL Puma- I have a link that explains how they are evolving due to conservation efforts and breeding programs

http://www.wildlifesurvival.com/cougarinfo.htm

Sacredstar · 12-22-2004, 07:22 PM

Dear Fayebelle

When we play with nature, nature finds a way to hit back.

Nature is meant to be

and allowed to be natural

and when we alter the natural course of nature

it is a transgression of the natural laws of the universe in my experience.

being love

Sacredstar

Fayebelle · 12-22-2004, 09:18 PM

I see your point but my question is Cloned beings have life- Therefore wouldn't clones be considered part of a species? And as such don't they deserve classification? Wouldn't they too have a soul?

Sacredstar · 12-22-2004, 09:37 PM

Dear Fayebell

Well it will be interesting to get a view from Vajradhara on this one being the Buddhist forum that I honour.

I have received no further divine guidance on this, apart from the fact it is a trangression and as such should not be done. Soul is interesting because from my experience it can fragment, so it could be the new species is a fragment of soul but yet what true condition would this soul be in due its birth into trangression. Only time will tell the effects of our transgression against the natural laws.

being love

Sacredstar

Ryuuko · 12-23-2004, 05:07 AM

Namasté Vajradhara,

What do you mean by higher and lower planes?

Vajradhara · 12-23-2004, 03:23 PM

Namaste Ryuuko,

thank you for the post.

i actually use those terms only when i dialog with non-Buddhists as that seems to make more sense to them than the various levels of rebirth that a being may find itself in.

from a modern point of view, i would say that these relative levels of rebirth could be consonant with a Multi World view of Quantum Mechanics, as opposed to the Copenhagen view.

i suppose that we could start a new thread that discusses some of the more esoteric aspects of Buddhist rebirth, though i fear that the conversation will be fairly dry and not all that interesting for most readers.

Vajradhara · 12-23-2004, 03:26 PM

Namaste Fayebelle and Sacredstar,

thank you for your posts.

well... Buddhism isn't concerned with souls or anything like that... so, from that point of view, we don't have much to say about cloning.

what Buddhism is concerned with, by contrast, is consciousness. the consciousness of the clone would be different than the consciousness of the being that was cloned, as such, from the Buddhist view, these are two different sentient beings, though their physical form my be the same.

it's much the same view as we have towards twins and so forth.

Ryuuko · 12-23-2004, 04:53 PM

Namasté Vajradhara,

I've always thought that once we have learned the lessons we had to learn in this life, we make a transition into a new life, and not necessarily on Earth. Is this what Buddhists believe, or is rebirth solely applicable to another life on Earth?