Should faith and patriotism be mixed?

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

As a Global Citizen first and foremost I find many flag waving events scary.

I really hate the "we won the war days". Rememberence days are solemn days to remember those that fought and died for our freedom and we often remember those humans that died on the opposing side, I like these days. However, the flag waving "we won" days make me feel sick, they belittle the deaths of those that died on both sides, their families that loved them and the suffering during the aftermath of war for the "losers". There is just something 'inhumane' about celebrating death with flag waving, cheering and dressing up.

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

The combining of God and Politics into a single justification for a chosen course is a recipe for hatred and intolerance of anything different.

Despite being a Muslim I have to agree with this. I was in a Muslim forum a few days ago and someone has at the bottom of every one of their posts the words "Muslims do not grass on other Muslims". I cancelled my membership. The idea being that even if I know the guy next door is building bombs to kill innocent people I should not tell anyone, as it goes against our religion. So I am meant to allow the sin of killing of innocent people in order not to sin by grassing on a Muslim . Yeah right, I would dial 999 in 2 seconds flat. This goes against so many Islamic teachings but is an effective political tool. Can you imagine the scene on Judgement Day:

G-d "you knew he was going to kill innocent people, why didn't you do anything?"

Me "I was told not to grass on Muslims"

G-d "take the door on the left market eternal Damnation"

We don't live in small social groups anymore, we are, as you say, a global community and this attitude can do nothing to create tolerance and understanding between communities.

[bananabrain]

on one hand i agree with dauer that you shouldn't leave G!D out of anything because "there is no place empty of the Divine". on the other hand, my opinion is that the nation-state is not a suitable vehicle for religious expression, so i believe that expressions of religious enthusiasm should be strictly regulated where it comes to patriotism. we have a principle called "dina de'malchuta dina", which translates roughly as "the law of the land in which you live is binding upon you" and this is applicable in all cases other than that of an entity defined as a "robber state". it is important to remember, incidentally, that even the roman empire was not defined as such and that is the religious paradigm of bad rulership. in fact we are enjoined to "pray for the peace of the government, for without it we'd tear each other to pieces", which i consider an expression of pragmatism. basically, we can pray for the government to behave ethically and morally and that is more or less the basis for all our thinking on this front. i should also point out that monarchs are considered to have an extra set of stuff attached to them so there's stuff you can do for monarchies you can't do for other institutions. on the other hand, praying for your country because states are inherently a good thing is not really a jewish position.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Tao_Equus]

Do you mind expanding and explaining what 'extra stuff' attached to monarchies?

Ty

Tao

[bananabrain]

yeah, you have to give extra respect to monarchs because G!D has "monarchic" characteristics, thus monarchs derive part of their "glory" from G!D (which is not the same thing as "divine right", incidentally) so there's a special blessing you say when you see a monarch, plus there are certain halakhic standards which use kings as a calibrator, thus food can be judged on whether it is "fit for a king's table" or dress can be judged on whether it is "fit to wear in front of a king".

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Tao_Equus]

Thanks

[ardenz]

No

[KarimK]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

thus monarchs derive part of their "glory" from G!D (which is not the same thing as "divine right", incidentally)

How so? Does that mean that monarchs derive their glory from God but NOT the legitimacy of their power?


(oh and patriotism? I thought we were done with patriotism. Patriotism is evil.)