Shalom and a Question for you

[B'ahavat Yeshua]

I stumbled on this forum and i'd like to ask you all here a question.

I am Messianic; I beleive that Yeshua is G-d's Yeshu'ah. I haven't converted or anything, i still obey Torah but have come to know that through Yeshua I can truly know HaShem and have a relationship with Him and believe that this doesn't make me not a real Jew or anything.

I just am curious as to what you all think of this; please don't attack me or anything. Its just that I didn't see anything addressing Messianic ideology in this forum.

[pohaikawahine]

I know this question was probably meant for those on this thread of Judaism .... but may I ask, what does it mean to be Messianic. I've been reading a lot laterly about Judiasm and am very interested in this faith, but I have so much to learn. Based on my own beliefs and culture I am so moved by books like The Zohar, the Song of Songs (so beautiful in its inner meanings), and many of the rituals such as the symbolism of the "tefillin" and the particular reference to the texts from Exodus 13:1-10, Exodus 13:11-16, Deuteronomy 6:4-9and Deuteronomy 11:13-21. I also picked up "The Five Books of Moses" and subscribed to a on-line publication called "Jewish Times" .... but it can be very confusing because not all believe or support The Zohar for example and so many different views on the Kaballist .... I've read definitions of different groups that are all part of Judaism and to an outsider it can be so confusing. I am currently reading a book called "Beholders of Divine Secrets" (Mysticism and Myth in the Hekhalot and Merkavah Literature) - the Jewish mystical writings of antiquity. It was from a doctorial thesis written in Hebrew, submitted to the Hebrew University in Jerusalem in 1997. It makes perfect sense to me and fits all that I believe. But there seems to be a lot of skepticism about the Jewish mystics (which only means those that speak in metaphors and symbols hidden in the veils) or "Hakkim Libba" (wise of heart).
Please excuse any ignorance on my part in what I have posted here,but I would really appreciate knowing what a Messianic is.... he hawai'i au, pohaikawahine

[bananabrain]

I am Messianic; I beleive that Yeshua is G-d's Yeshu'ah. I haven't converted or anything, i still obey Torah but have come to know that through Yeshua I can truly know HaShem and have a relationship with Him and believe that this doesn't make me not a real Jew or anything.

before we get into this, i just want to make one thing clear. if you are not aware that so-called "messianic judaism" is both controversial and arouses strong sentiments, then you have a lot to learn. if you are aware of this and are simply trawling for converts, this is even less welcome.

I just am curious as to what you all think of this; please don't attack me or anything. Its just that I didn't see anything addressing Messianic ideology in this forum.

that is because "messianic" ideology is christian, not jewish. as such it is relevant to the christian board, not the jewish one. as far as i am concerned, the short answer is that there isn't much to discuss. in jewish terms, putting it quite simply, jesus does not meet the agreed religious criteria to qualify for the status of "Moshiach" and therefore, this movement that purports to be "messianic jewish" is regarded by both jewishly nonsensical and intellectually dishonest, as it is actually a well-funded front for christian evangelist groups and nothing more.

if you are unaware what the actual criteria for messiahship are, please read this:

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/jews-j...sus-index.html

once you have read this, feel free to come back. what i would like to know first of all is this: why are you asking me what i think of "messianic judaism"? why aren't you interested in your own religion instead of falling for the sales pitch of people who want to destroy judaism? what was your jewish upbringing? are you from an observant background? what do you actually know about judaism? if you have genuine questions, i am happy to try and help you, but i warn you in advance that i dislike the "jews for jesus" movement immensely and my responses will be aimed at debunking their theology and promoting genuine, real normative judaism, not some perverted subversion of it. and just for the record, i have no problem with christianity (as long as it leaves us alone to be jewish) - that's why i do interfaith dialogue. but christians dressed up as jews to try and convert people - that is just plain fraud.

pohaikawahine - if you want to ask questions about actual judaism as opposed to messianic judaism, please feel free to start another thread.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[I, Brian]

Indeed, so far as I know, the people who claim that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah are known as Christians, so that definitely needs to temper the discussions that follow as to whether this remains on the Judaism board, or is moved to the Christianity section.

[mansio]

Before the so-called Messianic Jews (?) Christians (?) go on a Jewish forum they should learn how to spell Yeshu`a properly or retain his English name Jesus.
I have a question for you Bananabrain : I've often wondered why scholars (Christian and non-Christian) spell the name for messiah "mashiach" in Hebrew, and on Jewish sites it's always spelled "moshiach". Is that to distance from Christians or is there some linguistic reason ?

[bananabrain]

Before the so-called Messianic Jews (?) Christians (?) go on a Jewish forum they should learn how to spell Yeshu`a properly or retain his English name Jesus.

umph - part of this is ideological. if they refer to him with a hebrew name it makes him seem more "jewish" and raises curiosity. of course if his hebrew name was "joshua", then it would be "yehoshu'a". same linguistic root of course, which conveniently means "salvation" - albeit a more appropriate word for the messianic redemption is actually "ge'ula" - although, this is actually a girl's name, so obviously this wouldn't work for them. most of all the use of a hebrew name is meant, as is so much of their techniques, to blur the distinction and enable them to profit from the ambiguity. therefore, jews have learned over the last few years that anyone who starts talking about "yeshu'a" is probably a jew-for-jesus and wants to convert you. it's the same reason they call themselves "messianic jews" rather than "jews for jesus" - marketing pure and simple.

I have a question for you Bananabrain : I've often wondered why scholars (Christian and non-Christian) spell the name for messiah "mashiach" in Hebrew, and on Jewish sites it's always spelled "moshiach". Is that to distance from Christians or is there some linguistic reason ?

actually this word, which is made up of three consonantal letters, mem-shin-het, has to be transliterated in order to be written down in roman characters. linguistically the three-letter root is connected with the act of anointing. it's sometimes spelled "mashiach" as well, particularly in modern hebrew. "moshiach" comes about because of accent - ashkenazim (european jews) pronounce the "uh" vowel as "oh" (and "taf" without a dagesh as "s"). hence, the word "shabbat" becomes "shabbos", or "shabbes", whereas i, as an iraqi, would pronounce it "shabbaath". i would pronounce "mashiach" as "meshiah", as we distinguish between the "het" and "chaf" guttural sounds, unlike ashkenazim. so, no, it's not to distance us from christians. the cognate word in arabic would generally be written as masih in roman characters.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[mansio]

Hello Bananabrain, ha-rav shel ha-forum ha-zeh

You're right I should have spelt mashiach -> mashi'ah .

Another question : I know Jews mustn't pronounce the tetragrammaton.
[ Because of that we've got all those JWitnesses bothering us with their 'Jehovah' ]
So why do you misspell on purpose the word God which doesn't look like Yhwh ?

[bananabrain]

i'm a bit of a pronounciation nerd actually - but i wouldn't dream of trying to enforce my english transliterations of hebrew on unsuspecting board members...

So why do you misspell on purpose ....?

well, it's like this. to begin with, i don't think anyone should attempt to pronounce the Tetragrammaton. that's like the spiritual equivalent of putting your finger in an electric socket. as it happens, what the JWs say is so far off the mark it probably doesn't count as a bona fide Divine Name - there's no J sound in hebrew (unless you are a yemenite pronouncing the letter gimel without a dagesh, which isn't in the Big T and anyway i don't think we'll go there) - so although i don't approve of them, i will quite happily laugh my arse off at the stoning scene from "life of brian" ("that piece of halibut was good enough for Je...") - but i'd be quite annoyed at that track on the new U2 album. i guess that on one hand i'm trying to educate and another to prevent misuse. for example, some people may read out what they say on their screens, which would not be such a good thing. so obviously i denote the Tetragrammaton usually with "HaShem" (the Name) or refer to it in paraphrases if i can get away with it.

the point of the word "G!D" is my attempt to signify a connotation that is beyond language. i might just as well put "G~D" or "G#D" (or perhaps G$D if i was talking to a scientologist) or even "~@!"%^&*+," except that nobody would know what i was on about. as it is, the english exclamation mark is the best way i can think of to express what a.j. heschel refers to as "radical amazement" - or, what in the KJV is usually translated as "fear", although it's much more like "awed respect". and, yes, it is a bit pretentious, i admit. i don't have a problem pronouncing the english word "god", as it's english, (which is why i think the custom of writing "G-d" is stupid, because that implies that the english word has similar power and resonances, which imho it doesn't) but i find it too limiting to refer to a concept that transcends speech. it's just my custom to do so. to my immense satisfaction, a number of people have found my rational sufficiently attractive to adopt the custom as their own, which is terribly bad for my ego.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Kelcie]

Hi bananabrain,

Originally Posted by bananabrain

what i would like to know first of all is this: why are you asking me what i think of "messianic judaism"? why aren't you interested in your own religion instead of falling for the sales pitch of people who want to destroy judaism? what was your jewish upbringing? are you from an observant background? what do you actually know about judaism? if you have genuine questions, i am happy to try and help you, but i warn you in advance that i dislike the "jews for jesus" movement immensely and my responses will be aimed at debunking their theology and promoting genuine, real normative judaism, not some perverted subversion of it. and just for the record, i have no problem with christianity (as long as it leaves us alone to be jewish) - that's why i do interfaith dialogue. but christians dressed up as jews to try and convert people - that is just plain fraud.

Will we all get this third degree questioning if we ask a question? Do we always have to justify what religion, what upbringing etc etc before we seek answers to our questions on CR. Or is it only if you choose to follow one that opposes the beliefs of a moderator? I was under the impression that on CR each has the right to his or her own beliefs and opinion. Regardless of what we think their agenda is or what we dislike about their religion as long as their opinion or questions are spoken about with respect I didnt think their was a problem.

Perhaps I am wrong in understanding the ways of CR. Perhaps you could clarify the rules for me?

Kelcie

[Faithfulservant]

I have to say that I was a bit taken aback by BB's response to the threads author..

On the Christianity site we have people that claim Christian beliefs but in reality have no belief in the fundamentals of Christianity.. they get on there and stir up as much a fuss as they can and theres no allowance of attitude like the one Ive seen here... complete unwillingness to discuss someone elses beliefs..

I dont believe I saw what BB saw in the thread starter.. someone trying to convert.. I saw someone who was proud to be a Jew that followed the Torah.. wanting to know if he is shunned from discussing Judiasm with fellow Jews because he believes that Jesus is the Messiah. He did say that he had not converted.. in fact it sounds to me like he only just come to this realization and wanted to get input from his peers.

I in fact would hope that he would join the Christian forum because I am interested in what he would contribute to it. We have no messianic jews as of yet.. to my knowledge.

I am hoping that he wasnt chased away by any unwelcome feelings that he may have gotten here.

[bananabrain]

i'm sorry, kelcie, if that was the impression given. you are quite right to bring this up. just so you know; i am committed to interfaith *dialogue*. dialogue, in my book (and as far as i am aware this is in accordance with board policy, i'm sure brian will comment if necessary) is an encounter between people with no agenda other than understanding and education. certain groups or individuals may have their own agenda which is not entirely congruent with dialogue, but apart from a small number of exceptions, this usually does not prevent some kind of meaningful encounter which will hopefully help to educate them out of their ignorance. similarly, there are people who are fairly dogmatic about their own particular bonnet-bee, which may make them irritating, but doesn't preclude them from making a useful contribution.

unfortunately there are some individuals and groups whose beliefs and practices are entirely incompatible with both the spirit and practice of dialogue. this is based upon both reason and, i'm sorry to say, experience. it's not a long list and the various moderators have slightly different takes on who ought to be on it, but just to give you a quick idea:

1) fascists and neo-nazis
2) witnessers (by which i mean the "you're completely wrong, in the service of the devil and going to hell unless you agree with me and/or convert" kind of christian or muslim)
3) new age prophets who are here to give us all a message from the Divine and start their own religion
4) stealth evangelists (by which i mean people who dishonestly purport to be one thing and are in fact another - messianics, or jews for jesus to give them their correct name are one example of this, in that their entire intention is to convert jews to christianity by pretending to act like jews. they are funded by a network of christian evangelical organisations and target us specifically for this purpose, using every trick in the book to do so)

the relativist argument that says that every point of view is equally valid must have some limits. these are they, imho. if such people come to the judaism board, i will either directly refute them or have them banned. if they go to the christianity or islam board, i will do so there and/or bring it to the attention of the moderators. either way it will be discussed in the moderator "staff room". there is no place for such behaviour within interfaith dialogue.

there is another very small and precise group who i am specifically religiously prohibited from talking to, which is that of true idol-worshippers in the biblical sense (as opposed to neo-pagans or satanists or whoever, who tend to be lovely people). i have only encountered one such person in 7 years of web dialogue, fortunately and it was extremely unpleasant and, not surprisingly, ended up as anti-semitic.

basically, although i moderate, i also participate in discussion. when i see something being said that is either wrong (intentionally or not) or ignorant i try to challenge and rectify it. certain people, however, get the rough edge of my, er, keyboard. please don't think that i do this to everybody - although i can certainly be caustic at times.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Kelcie]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i'm sorry, kelcie,bananabrain

Hi bananabrain,

No worries, thanks for the clarification. I guess you have to make some really tough calls when the need arises. Cannot be easy Im sure. However you keep it nice and cosy for us and for this I am glad.

Thanks very much
Kelcie

[bananabrain]

no worries m'dear.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[InLove]

Hi, Shalom/Peace to All Here--

I really want to interject something here, if I may. This issue comes up over and over again on this board, and I understand why it does. But I have seen bb address this so many times. I wonder if it must get tiring?

I'd just like to say that I am grateful to have learned what I have learned from bananabrain's posts on this matter. I mean, I would rather find out here in a forum like this than I would face-to-face out there in the world somewhere. Exactly the reason I joined CR in the first place.

Just a couple of my thought pennies...

InPeace,
InLove

[bananabrain]

This issue comes up over and over again on this board, and I understand why it does. But I have seen bb address this so many times. I wonder if it must get tiring?

yes, it does get tiring. occasionally it does us good to dust off the cobwebs. however, i notice our friend who started the thread hasn't come back. this probably means (as i suspected) that he was touting for business, in other words, trying to get people involved in his sordid little cult. and there you have the whole sorry business in a nutshell.

b'shalom

bananabrain