Sexuality and Religion

[China Cat Sunflower]

My experience is that it's not usually in my interest to display vulnerability. Certainly not in the world of men. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think that women especially want us to display our emotional vulnerabilities because it disrupts their feeling of security. They say they want us to tell them how we feel, but I think it's more that they don't want us to bottle up our emotions so that we wind up acting out and smacking them around. It's not good to look weak in front of your wife. It really worries her. She counts on you being strong. That's a source of security for her.

That said, though, I think that it's good to display strength of character and overall sensitivity. I don't think my wife's sense of security was challenged when I broke down and cried as I held our children when they were born, or my raw show of emotion at my brother's passing. The ability to appreciate beauty and feel pain demonstrate depth and emotional honesty. So perhaps that's what they mean when they say they wish we'd show our feelings. That's different than saying "I feel worthless." "I feel like quiting my job." "I feel that I hate your mother."

Chris

[Pathless]

Hi Chris,

Yes, the big bad "world of men" is no place to go around emoting your inner pain or unfulfilled desires. This to me is the problem. Until men can be open emotionally and not feel insecure about how they will be percieved by their wives and other men, we will remain divided along these weird gender lines where women feel and men act.

As far as women wanting men to be emotionally staid and solid, I think that varies in relationships. It sounds like you are speaking from your own experience, which is certainly valid. My own experience is that when I tell my partner "I hate my job and it makes me feel worthless" she wants to hear what the problem is and hash out some options with me. No one is threatened, and although the conversation may be stressful, sad, or unpleasant for both of us, we work through it, coming to a deeper understanding of ourselves and our relationship in the process.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

You may have heard of the recent controversy surrounding the Sheikh Taj El-Din Hamid Hilaly in Australia, who compared Western women who didn't wear enough clothing to "uncovered meat."

Thank you Salty, you have taken time to consider this and I appreciate it. It is rare that people really try to see the others point of view.

I think what really offended women is that he said women who dress like this are asking to be raped. He was basically blaming women for being rape victims, which has long been an issue in Islamic societies and one that seriously offends Muslim women.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Many Muslim women were actually offended by the statement and disagreed with it. Their response was that they didn't agree with the idea that they were responsible for the behaviour of men and that they provoked it, and that wearing hijab was an indication that they condeded to that responsibility.

I agree completely and a rapist is a bully, not an innocent man seduced by the clothing of the woman, no matter what that clothing. Lock em up and throw away the key.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

They explained that yes, hijab represented modesty, but that it had nothing to do with provocation but a form of liberation -- that they felt liberated from the cultural demands of society -- from having to impress people with their looks or compete with other women.

Amen to that and boy is it liberating for me but that doesn't mean I think all women should dress this way, it is a matter of personal choice. In Islamic society responsibility is meant to be shared. As a woman I should not dress or behave in a way to provoke men and they should not dress or behave to provoke me or indeed try to take advantage of me. The hijab is largely about privacy, my body is my own, my sexuality is for my husband alone and if I am respected it is for my mind or heart, not for my fashion labels or shape of my boobs. I find it very, very liberating.

There is also the hypocracy to consider. So many women that wear the face veil also wear as much makeup as their eyelids can hold, without the lashes falling off. Then they shout about how the women in the west dress as sluts. They make up the only part of them that can be seen, because I can report with authority that they don't wear blusher or lipstick. So it is done in order to appear beautiful and not for modesty. This is where I say that the hijab often has the opposite effect as is intended, oh look a beautiful pair of eyes so what else lurks under the black robe? And let us be honest, even the dullest, ugliest eyes can be made to look good with enough goo on.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

Sometimes it has to do with professionalism. It's an expression of dignity and self-respect and also of devotion and dedication to one's job, work and profession.

Okay I am prepared to be completely honest here. I was a professional working western woman for many years, I worked in a strictly male environment and I wore smart suits to work. I like to think I dressed to be professional but did people need to see my bra through my sheer blouse or was I aware that this would hold mens attention, when I was rambling on about boring statistics? The latter is true. Could I look tidy and professional in flatter shoes or did I like the shape of my legs in higher heels? The latter again. So is it not really just an excuse for flattering attention? Virtually all of the men I worked with were married and I have never, even in my wilder days, believed in adultery, so for me it was just about an ego boost, I liked to be admired.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

The funny thing is, women put make up on when going out in public and take it off in private -- whether or not they are married. What you might say is that she is "less sexy" at home than she is in public life. That's ultimately driven by the idea that the husband at home loves "the real woman" and that the woman in public life who wears make up and a fancy dress is wearing a mask to hide the reality of who she is as a person.

Okay now here is a wierd thing, I hadn't even thought about it before you mentioned this. My behaviour has changed completely. I now take my makeup off if I am going shopping by myself but if I go out with my husband I put it on. I also sit around all day in a pony tail but about half an hour before my husband comes home I go and do my hair. So what does that say about my marriage and my brain function? Am I now a simpering sex toy? I hardly think so but I can't say I understand it. Perhaps it just comes with the new territory of believing I am only for my husband to enjoy and vice versa? Hmmm, will think on that one.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

I think there is a certain level of ignorance among both Western and Muslim cultures with regards to the practices of their counterparts. Western women assert that "I don't do it for anybody else, I do it for me," while Muslim women assert that "I don't have to do it for anyone. I am free."

I think this is where I am really struggling with this. I am now from both camps and so I hope can see both arguments. Yet I have to report that in some ways (certainly regarding my body and sexuality) I do feel more free now. Before I converted I would have said, with real belief, that I didn't do it for anyone else, it was for me. However, I can now see what a load of old tosh that was, I did it to compete and be admired.

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

The mistake is to think of the counterpart as enslaved when they are actually liberated.

But how will the two sides ever accept this? I am having difficulty and I have been on both sides. I am like the ex smoker, that wants everyone to see the benefits of stopping. I used to truly believe that I was liberated and now I see I was quite the opposite, I was manipulated. I went to lunch with my best friend last week and I sat in her home for over an hour while she made herself up, who was she doing it for - I don't fancy her honest, and her hubby was at work and her 3 kids just want some money for chips. So I worry now about her confidence, why does she need all this to 'feel' herself or to feel acceptable to the public? Perhaps we need a six month program where the whole world swaps dress code for 6 months and then see what comes out at the end of it (of course I don't have to join in because I already took part in the experiment and thanks all the same but I shall stick with my liberating hijab ).

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

My experience is that it's not usually in my interest to display vulnerability. Certainly not in the world of men. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think that women especially want us to display our emotional vulnerabilities because it disrupts their feeling of security. They say they want us to tell them how we feel, but I think it's more that they don't want us to bottle up our emotions so that we wind up acting out and smacking them around. It's not good to look weak in front of your wife. It really worries her. She counts on you being strong. That's a source of security for her.

Perhaps it is wrong of us but I have to agree with this analysis completely. Perhaps it is unfair on men. I was a heartless bitch when I was single (and I am not being flippant), because I had to be. I couldn't just let go and cry whenever I wanted, I had a mortgage to pay and the car to fix, etc. Now I am a big pink fluffy marshmallow and I LOVE IT. I have the freedom to be a girl now, as I know my hubby will be strong and yes this makes me feel secure. Of course I expect him to weep and crumble at times, he is human, not a robot and at these times I hope I am strong for him.

Sorry but if a man touches me in the street I want my hubby to punch him squarely on the nose. The wierd thing is I am completely capable of punching his nose myself but there is just something comforting about knowing that my man will protect me, it does make me feel secure. I am more than capable of going and fitting the new fuse box but there is something nice about watching my hubby do it (after 3 months of obligatory nagging of course).

I don't want to be a female man anymore, I want to be a girly and I want my husband to be a man.

[greymare]

oh I think I have just realized the same thing as you are saying mw. I was on my own with the boys for so long, I had to be mother, father, fixer, comforter and all those things. Im not complaining but it would have been nice to be a girly girl in those times. now Im just set in my ways, i guess. I want some thing pink, other than my phone. hahahahah. I do get what you are saying mw. Im not poking fun. I think id like to be protected, when I need it, not to have to be the strong one, all the time. not that I want to be converted. Maybe its just the little girl in me wanting that security. dunno. Ill think on it. love the grey

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by greymare

oh I think I have just realized the same thing as you are saying mw. I was on my own with the boys for so long, I had to be mother, father, fixer, comforter and all those things. Im not complaining but it would have been nice to be a girly girl in those times. now Im just set in my ways, i guess. I want some thing pink, other than my phone. hahahahah. I do get what you are saying mw. Im not poking fun. I think id like to be protected, when I need it, not to have to be the strong one, all the time. not that I want to be converted. Maybe its just the little girl in me wanting that security. dunno. Ill think on it. love the grey

Oh my goodness Grey I wasn't talking about converting faith, just about finding the way to say I am a woman and I want to be a woman. I had been taught for so long that being a 'girly' was a weakness. I finally saw, yes due to my converting faith, that I had boxed myself into a corner and all I had to do was lift the lid and say here I am, a pink fluffy girly. I was 40 when I finally let go of my Thatcherite "women are strong and should have it all" nonsense. It wasn't easy and even now I have control issues. My best friend used to go mad because I would never let her drive us anywhere, I was a total control freak and scared to let anyone take control of any aspect of my life. How liberating it was when I realised that I could say, yeah you drive, I'll enjoy the scenery.

So forget about faith in this issue, just accept that life is easier when there are two of you to share the burden and yes sometimes it is liberating to let another person take control, even if that just means letting your best friend drive. It's sort of the opposite of the burn your bra campaign.

[Impqueen]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Before I converted I would have said, with real belief, that I didn't do it for anyone else, it was for me. However, I can now see what a load of old tosh that was, I did it to compete and be admired.

So you were doing it for yourself. You enjoyed the admiration. I would say that when I dress nicely (partly at least) I am doing it because I enjoy it for the same reasons you did. It's nice to be admired. But that pleasure in being admired is mine, so I am doing it for me.

The part that troubles me is the competing bit, I feel myself doing it occasionally and try to avoid it.

I can see how the hijab is freeing though, mind you, I'm not about to give it a 6 month trial . The thing is, my friends (male and female) all prioritise mind and heart over looks, otherwise they wouldn't be my friends. So if they admire me aesthetically, when I turn up to a party in pretty clothes, that's the cherry on the cake. Unnecessary, but pleasant.

I would agree with Salty that the clothes I wear are an expression of myself, of who I would like to be etc. Sometimes who I want to be is a sexy beeatch but most of the time I want to be a happy hippy chick.

It is very nice to be looked after by a man. But I look after him too, and not just because I make our meals. Like Pathless said, if he's got a problem we talk it through. I really don't think men should be toughing it out in front of their women, that just leads to a situation where the man never takes his masks off. Partnerships are about mutual support. Like Pathless I think cutting ourselves off from sources of love outside the main partnership can be negative. I rather admire people who can handle polygamy and open relationships. I know it's not something I could do though.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by Impqueen

So you were doing it for yourself. You enjoyed the admiration. I would say that when I dress nicely (partly at least) I am doing it because I enjoy it for the same reasons you did. It's nice to be admired. But that pleasure in being admired is mine, so I am doing it for me.

Yes I take your point ImpQueen, perhaps I have just reprioritised what I really need in my life or who I feel I really am?

Originally Posted by Impqueen

The part that troubles me is the competing bit, I feel myself doing it occasionally and try to avoid it.

Hmm, not so easy to avoid though is it. Perhaps it goes back to our cave days, the 'survival of our genes' instinct? Perhaps we need at a base level to be the most attractive female so we get the strongest male as a mate?

Originally Posted by Impqueen

I can see how the hijab is freeing though, mind you, I'm not about to give it a 6 month trial .

Hee, hee, didn't think you would somehow lol.

Originally Posted by Impqueen

The thing is, my friends (male and female) all prioritise mind and heart over looks, otherwise they wouldn't be my friends. So if they admire me aesthetically, when I turn up to a party in pretty clothes, that's the cherry on the cake. Unnecessary, but pleasant.

I feel sure you and your friends are not so shallow but you must admit it does abound these days. I think it is also important we realise that we often hold views we are not even aware of, until they are challenged. So we may genuinely believe we do not judge people by their looks but we do all have in built prejudices. I try to take everyone as I find them but my brain cannot help stereotyping people sometimes (shell suits are a great example).

Originally Posted by Impqueen

I would agree with Salty that the clothes I wear are an expression of myself, of who I would like to be etc. Sometimes who I want to be is a sexy beeatch but most of the time I want to be a happy hippy chick.

You certainly sound like a happy hippy chick. I am not knocking it in any way, everyone to their own. I just want people to accept that it is my choice to dress as I do and I am a happy hijab chick.

Originally Posted by Impqueen

Partnerships are about mutual support. Like Pathless I think cutting ourselves off from sources of love outside the main partnership can be negative. I rather admire people who can handle polygamy and open relationships. I know it's not something I could do though.

I agree completely and is something I have been trying to teach my husband, as he was brought up to believe in very static male/female roles. It took him a long time to realise he could discuss his worries with his wife, not rush off to find a male to talk with. But I like our watered down male/female roles, they suit us and it has allowed me to become 'female'. For me, I have now found a happy medium between my western 'strong, must have it all' female and the Arabic 'weak, pathetic woman' role. Oh aren't I lucky I have it both ways now.

I cannot say I admire people who can handle polygamy as my brain just freaks at the very idea (other than in very dire circumstances). I have read a considerable amount about the issue of polygamy in Islam (there are whole books about this one issue) and find that the issue is thoroughly addressed, yet I have never once read a scholars opinion that discusses the emotional feelings of the first wife. They always talk about the emotional and sexual needs of the man and of the woman that cannot find a husband but never address the issue of the first wife feeling somehow not enough. I always end up screaming at the screen "what about the first wife". However, if people choose this lifestyle and all parties are happy then go for it, just as long as you don't want me to join in the party.

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Impqueen

Like Pathless I think cutting ourselves off from sources of love outside the main partnership can be negative. I rather admire people who can handle polygamy and open relationships. I know it's not something I could do though.

and

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

I have read a considerable amount about the issue of polygamy in Islam (there are whole books about this one issue) and find that the issue is thoroughly addressed, yet I have never once read a scholars opinion that discusses the emotional feelings of the first wife. They always talk about the emotional and sexual needs of the man and of the woman that cannot find a husband but never address the issue of the first wife feeling somehow not enough. I always end up screaming at the screen "what about the first wife". However, if people choose this lifestyle and all parties are happy then go for it, just as long as you don't want me to join in the party.

Ah, we are back to talking about sexuality. Polygamy?? Yikes and wowzers! I don't think that many people can handle polygamy. Too sticky. First off, it should not ever be about meeting one partner's needs, but should be a mutually desired adventure that a couple (or trio or whatever, but for the sake of tradition and to not totally blow our minds, let's assume couple) goes on together.

What if in the future, when humanity matures a bit on the gender/sexual relationship scale, couples who are deeply in love (and maybe a bit on the edgy side of sexual exploration), decide to spice up their love life by inviting another couple or another individual into their bedroom? This is not polygamy, I guess, but more like "swinging." But I think experiments in swinging or trios are often lacking in love.

I firmly believe that no one should have sex without love. For most people, one committed loving relationship is all they desire and can handle. Yet what if...? two couples who are good friends decide to take their relationship(s) to a taboo level? Somehow I feel like couples inviting other couples to share in love-making is less threatening for those involved than a couple inviting a single individual. For two couples together, there would already be a strong bond of love within each couple and a bond of love between the couples.

Of course I think this is a dangerous idea and could only be successful when attempted by radically honest people who are open to discussing their emotions and feelings for each other at all stages of this affair. There is always the danger of infidelity in the sense that a third couple will be formed out of the original two! Yikes!! That wouldn't be good for anyone. Radical honesty and openness to the process would be key ingredients.

[Muslimwoman]

Hi Pathless

Obviously for my mind that would then be adultery and a big no-no.

I could only accept polygamy (and I have given this much thought) if there was a dire need, ie following a war, where many women and children would be left without support and not enough men to provide for families. My view would change in the west but in Egypt with no social security system, I could see a need under these circumstances. However, for me, this would have to be a non sexual relationship and simply a marriage in order to provide for the woman and her children. The day my huby stayed overnight would be the day I got a divorce and a flight back to UK.

[Tao_Equus]

I think polygamy to be so contrary to western cultural conditioning that it would destroy almost any relationship. Of course there would be rare exceptions, the swingers sites are busy, but my feeling is participant couples would not remain couples for long after following that track. It is just too alien to our emotional needs and security. Maybe one partner could handle it, but rarely two.
I have come across an exception in my own experience where a medical issue caused a couple to seek a third party, even then the situation was very alien and a lot of emotional repression was evident.
But there are cultures where monogamy is not the norm and they all seem to cope. We get ever more self-centred in the west and I cannot see it but remaining a fringe activity. Sex addicts are always looking for a new high and I think such practices are more or less confined to such people.

Tao

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Hi Pathless

Obviously for my mind that would then be adultery and a big no-no.

Hi Mw. How would it be adultery if it was consensual on all sides?

[Impqueen]

I think polygamy as in a man who has many wives has obvious sex equality issues. Polygamy as a relationship consisting of more than two people, all of whom are happy with the situation, is fine. To my mind the important thing is that all who are involved are happy with it. I think for that to happen everyone involved needs to have healthy self-esteem and no security issues, they also probably need to be understanding and calm. People with all those attributes are quite rare!

To be able to love unselfishly and unpossessively is an admirable thing for me. I know I'm incapable of it. Most people are probably incapable of it and experimenting with it could be very damaging for a couple indeed. So I can see why it's frowned on by many religions; for the majority of people it could endanger the relationship and thus the stability of the child rearing environment (as this is what most religions seem to see a marriage as being). However I feel completely banning something because it's a bad idea for most people is rather unfair on the few who can carry it off.

[Pathless]

Thanks, Impy, for the engaging response! I agree with you and believe that healthy and loving polyamorous relationships would be very rare and only possible among a group of committed, highly self-actualized and respectful people, and even then would be difficult all around.

I've been reading Caroline Myss's Anatomy of the Spirit and found a germane passage on sexuality that I'd like to share:

Besides creating life, sex is an avenue of self-expression, a means of making a statement about our comfort in relating physically to the world around us. Sexuality connects us to our own bodies and physical needs as well as to our potential for exploring our erotic and sensual aspects. Sexual eroticism is a form of physical and emotional liberation as well as of spiritual liberation. Why spiritual? Erotic pleasure is, by nature, "in the moment," an encounter in which we drop most of our physical boundaries in order to enjoy the full measure of human contact. Explored without shame, erotic energy can elevate the human body and spirit into sensations of ecstacy, at times producing altered states of consciousness.

--Anatomy of the Spirit, pgs 142-143

Sexual expression without shame is somewhat rare in our society. The earliest messages we get about sex are full of innuendos, taboos, hush-hush, stoney silences, embarassment, and negative thou-shalt-not commandments. The sexually curious child has very few resources presented to hir; (s)he often explores alone, in the dark, and then risks shaming about masturbation or promiscuity. Traditionally, ours is a very sex-negative culture. Sex is often seen as a means to an end (to produce children) or reserved for marriage. Ah, the legacy of our puritanical forepeople (speaking as an American)!

Of course the traditional take on sexuality has been challenged by the counterculture, artists, and literati for as long as it has been prevalent. From Walt Whitman to Alan Ginsberg to Susie Bright and Carol Queen, the challenges to establishment sexuality just keep-a-comin' (pun intended ), and we have made some great strides as a society in our acceptance or at least tolerance of homosexuality. Yet I feel we are still like scared children and closeted puritanical adults in the face of the awesomeness of the variety of human sexual experience, and many are awash in unchallenged cultural conditioning.

I think that if we are committed to personal and spiritual growth, we have to at least be open to exploring sexuality and allowing some wiggle room with it in our own lives. Both spirituality and sexuality are too often seen as static, unchanging. Yet to be alive and fully human, we must recognize and cooperate with the fact that every day we are changing beings! For me, a day without a new idea or a challenged perception has become rather boring--and a state of stagnancy.

I wonder about our sexuality on a societal level as well. It's my opinion that, regarding sexuality and sexual self-expression, our civilized societies are still walking around with their panties in a wad over the most liberating and powerful human experiences (sex, drugs, and... rock and roll? ). I wonder if we were able to let go and enjoy--and let others let go and enjoy without feeling threatened morally, personally, or culturally--would we be bitch-slapping each other as much with bombs n poverty n stuff?

As a side-note (for further research for the curious, perhaps), anyone familiar with Wilhem Reich and "orgone energy"?

Wilhelm Reich - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Wilhelm Reich Museum - Biography

[Tao_Equus]

Hi Pathless,

" As a side-note (for further research for the curious, perhaps), anyone familiar with Wilhem Reich and "orgone energy"?

Did he invent the orgasmatron too?

Tao