Sex Magik

[Susma Rio Sep]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Reading this thread about Sex Magick, and people's use of sex for magickal purposes - I hope I am not the only person left feeling somewhat sexually dull.

Brian, don't feel so left out. We are two, not into sex magik.

Whatever sex magik however that people go into for enlightenment and all the way to Nirvana, I still from a sense of civic concern want to advise them most sincerely to beware of sexually transmitted diseases and unwanted pregnancy, and also don't share the unsavory parasitic fauna and flora of the pubic and anal regions among themselves.

Better still, have a very stringent medical check-up and obtain a certificate of good sexual health from a professionally licensed doctor, for yourself, and demand it from your partners, before you do go into sex magik.

And I am still curious to have access to police blotters and records of government health offices respectively on sex offenses and the sexual epidemiology of religious people like monks, nuns, priests, etc., in ethnic groups which practice sex magik.

It would be enlightening to compare the incidence of sexual diseases in Tibet before and after takeover by the communist regime of China.

Pachomius2000

[Chela]

Well, we certainly filled up this thread quickly.

Originally Posted by Erynn

Unless you're using a different system than the standard base 10. In binary, that equation can't even exist. Just ask any mathemetician

Right, but then 10 + 10 = 11. Or glab + glab = shamb, in glabsham base, but they are referring to the same things. If I have glab apples and and glab apple, I'll have a tota of shamb apples, in glabsham base, 11 in binary and 2 in decimal.

I was under the impression that this view of the universe went out with the Victorians? From what I understand, Einstein's theories, and the developments of subatomic particle physics, quantum physics, chaos theory, and string theory have left science in one of those "there are more things than are dreamt of..." states of understanding. I mean, string theory postulates multiple universes, wherein the rules may be different in each.

You mistundertsood me because I am talking in favor of Einstein.

String theory, is just that, theory.. We are not 100% sure on that, but yes, there can be a machine that exists within multiple dimensions, according string theory, it is 11 dimensions. Occording thesophy, it is seven dimensions.

So you're suggesting that non-monogamous, non-heterosexual people practicing sexual magic are like drunks?

No. I am just saying that we attract what we are becase we become magintized by those things we are involved with. This is both good and bad. We have already concluded we disagree with what is good and bad, what I am saying here is that, yes, indeed, the body acts like a magent. Not a physical magnet, a psychological magnet.

But we are able to perceive things that are "not real" according to common wisdom -- dreams, the images of vision, and such like.

But dreams are real. The Astral World is real. In the Astral World, what we think (dream) of becomes a reality in front of our eyes. We daydream all the time, but because we are in our physical bodies, we cannot see the realities of our dreams, during the day. At night, we become lost in them. We never question if we are dreaming or awake becase we always assume we are awake, even when we are dreamign. The is the unawakened consciousness.

Would it surprise you if I said that my experience of the universe is different? That I have experienced a multiplicity of deities, a multiplicity of universes that seem parallel and not quite like this one, that I believe that dream in many cases has as much reality as the computer I touch as I'm typing here?

Not at all! I am sorry for being so hard to understand. Obviously, I have already said that dreams are real. So we are on the same page, there at least.

Why is your experience more valid than mine or other people's? I think you have taken your personal revelatory experience and are applying it as though it governs every other thing in existence. Leg and trunk of the elephant and all that. I'm not even sure human beings are capable of perceiving the entire elephant, to be honest. And for all we know, there may be more out there than just the elephant -- jaguars and palm trees and oceans and clouds...

I can refer to a scripture or other acient text of wisdom for everything I say, but then people think I am just reapeating what I have memorized. Many times, I choose to speak from my own voice, even if it is no more valid than anyone else, as you have correctly pointed out.

For you, what you have experienced is absolute and monistic.

I am not monistic. A monistic religion is a dead religion because there is nothing for it to procreate with. A religion without Gods and Goddesses is retardant of its own proliferation.

Modern Christianity merely converted them Virgins or Angels, etc.. and this well known.

But it is also a part of the spiritual worldview that I share with many others, that the triadic is more stable and more active than the dualistic -- where duality is a static balance, triplicity is balance in motion. There are three "cauldrons" with in the body wherein energy is gathered and processed in both a spiritual and magical sense. Energies may be physical, emotional, or spiritual, and sexuality can be expressed on all three of those basic levels. Strict dualism isn't really a principle in our system. Where we acknowledge both day and night, the true time of power for us is in the liminal state of dawn/dusk -- the places between -- and so it can be argued that sexuality falls into this liminal between place, where gender (the "night" and "day" of male and female bodies at least -- the metaphor doesn't extend to intersexed or otherwise hermaphroditic bodies ) is irrelevant because what is important is what takes place in the interstices, in the ambiguous and the transgendered, in the transcendence of duality.

Neither am I a dualist, although I perfectly understand why this has been incorrectly assumed.

The Matrimony is a trimony between three: Man, Woman, and God. That is a Trimony.

3 Binah, Holy Spirit, Jeh-Hova, Father-Mother, Sex (reconciliation of opposites)
3+3=6 Tiphereth, The Son of (At)Man (sexual)
3+3+3 = 9, Yesod, Foundation (Everything that is created has its orgin in sex)

Not everyone in this world, or even in this forum, is monotheistic. Not all of us live by the same set of assumptions or the same guiding texts. Not all of our religions regard homosexuality (or eating shellfish and wearing a cotton/linen blend, for that matter) as an abomination, or non-monogamy as a sin.

But I did not say otherwise.

The framework you have chosen to work within, and the worldview that you accept as correct is not the same as mine. To me, the "truths" of monotheistic religions are no more than another opinion on the nature of reality. I regard their texts as interesting and sometimes useful, but not reflective of absolute reality. It's no more to me than any other text on philosophy, and by the limited nature of human perception, it cannot reflect any "absolute" reality or truth, merely some corner of it. Each text is the preserved, and often mistranslated record of the opinion of other human beings. By the nature of human experience, there can be no genuine "objectivity," for everything is processed through our senses, and our senses can be fooled -- or expanded.

With todays degenerate mind there can be no objectivity. The mind should be a perfectly clean mirror, so it can perfectly reflect Tao, but through time and lovely evolution we have made our mirror very dusty. The truth still does exist and it is still attainable, as it is stated in every religion, because that is what a religion is: to reunite with the truth.

Physics tells us that "solid matter" conists almost entirely of the space between atoms and subatomic particles. This is supposedly "objective" reality. Yet the human hand still generally stops when it impacts a wall, and that's another form of "objective" reality. When we get to the level of subatomic particles, we are dealing with far more than just positively and negatively charged protons and neutrons. We deal with things like light appearing to be both a particle and a wave, with particles that have "charm" and "strangeness," with the idea that everything that is might be one subatomic particle speeding around the entire universe and transcending time and space in the most astonishing and incomprehensible manner.

In the face of such things, I don't dare declare an Absolute Truth that applies to every person in every time and every place. In a worldview like this, there is room for the realities of the intersexed, of the hermaphroditic, of the androgynous. There is room for homoeroticism and pansexuality in this liminal twilight.

Physics is a great science, but, it is still a science, so by definition it is incomplete. Theories are displayed to us like women's fashion, "Look at the new theory! It is amazing!"

We should not fall into the danger of confusing science and what is regarded as "facts" with the Truth, because most of our facts are nothing more than the three dimensional aspect of something larger. Every time a new theory theory comes out, it connects more dots, but it finds more dots too...

And when approached lovingly and responsibly and with regard and respect for all involved, it's all good.

"Love is law, but conscious love."

Ignorance is the root of all error, even ignorant love.

Conscious love is just that: Wisdom + Compassion, Will + Imagination, Man + Woman, this is Tantra.

Taoism and Buddhism tells us again and again that one without the other leads to error.

But whose scriptures, and by what criteria are they to be judged valid? Are they holy and true because they say they are? If so, isn't that rather self-referential and arbitrary? What about all the other, contradictory scriptures, that also claim they're holy and true?

The Vedas, the Bible, the Upishands, the Koran, the Zend Avesta, the Book of the Dead, the works of Homer, the Sibylline Books, the Edda, the wisdom of the Native Americans, the "Gnostic" works, the Dao De Jing, I Ching, the writings of the Kabbalah, the cult of Mithra, the dancing Dirvisha, the Greek, Roman and Egyptian writings...

I fail to see wisdom in hatred and the eternal damnation of homosexuals, though I'll agree I can't comprehend it. This isn't a philosophy I can ascribe to in any good conscience at all.

The very fact that the words of the scriptures or my words is seen as hatred (I am not talking about the ignorant Christians, because they do hate) is where you should be begin if you wish to understand. If it is pointed to me, then I must say, I never said I hated anyone. In fact, I deeply love everyone.

Personally, I would not waste my time talking about something I hate. Rather, I would meditate on that fact until I found its source..

For some of us, sexual magic does not include the mixing of bodily fluids within the body at all, and safer sex practices such as the use of condoms is done to help prevent the potential spread of disease. There doesn't seem to be any effect on the efficacy of the magical work because of it.

Honestly, I whole hardedly disagree. I found it absolutely retardant. Contraceptives are nothing more than an excuse to justify many things, and I was completely mistaken to have ever used them.

I thought you never praticed?

[Chela]

I made mistakes in my last post.

Originally Posted by me

2 in decimal

It is actually 4 in decimal.

Originally Posted by me

I am not monistic.

I was thinking of monotheistic, forgive my ignorance.

As far as monism goes, that term fits, if it is meaning that there is only one truth, yes.

[Chela]

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

Brian, don't feel so left out. We are two, not into sex magik.

Whatever sex magik however that people go into for enlightenment and all the way to Nirvana, I still from a sense of civic concern want to advise them most sincerely to beware of sexually transmitted diseases and unwanted pregnancy, and also don't share the unsavory parasitic fauna and flora of the pubic and anal regions among themselves.

Really, this is only the most dense and obvious reason why sexual magic should only be conducted between a man and wife.

This is also why we should not have sex at all until we are married (however "unrealistic" or "antiquated" that thought may appear). Any sexual act that carries dangerous side effects along with it is an obvious warning flag, in my opinion.

Why does nature need to be altered (contraceptives) in order to work with it (sex)? It makes no sense. Conraceptives only make sense to our desire to fornicate, that is the truth, is it not? We do not need "protection" from sex, unless it is dirty or dangerous sex, that is a fact. Sexual magic that is dirty or dangerous is called Black Magic for this fact.

White Sexual Magic requires no protection because it is 100% free of danger. I make a personal attestment to this, even if many people disagree with me.

Is not the body a temple for the soul? Indeed it is. And, is not the door into the soul found through sex (sensual love)? Why then, do we open it up to our animal desires and insatiable passions? Do we not know that the fire of hell is our own burning passion? Do we not know that, as a candle burns itself out of wax, so do our burning passions burn us out of soul?

[I, Brian]

Contraceptive allows the most initimate physical expression of love - but without the reproductive consequences of union of two fertile bodies.

At all levels of our lives we usually turn to some aspect of technology to help enhance some aspect of life - from use of automated transport to move over distances, to telecommunciations to pass messages on faster.

Somehow I would have personal difficulty understanding the reasoning aganist contraception unless in the context of "all technology is wrong".

[Susma Rio Sep]

Originally Posted by Chela

Really, this is only the most dense and obvious reason why sexual magic should only be conducted between a man and wife.

This is also why we should not have sex at all until we are married (however "unrealistic" or "antiquated" that thought may appear). Any sexual act that carries dangerous side effects along with it is an obvious warning flag, in my opinion.

Why does nature need to be altered (contraceptives) in order to work with it (sex)? It makes no sense. Conraceptives only make sense to our desire to fornicate, that is the truth, is it not? We do not need "protection" from sex, unless it is dirty or dangerous sex, that is a fact. Sexual magic that is dirty or dangerous is called Black Magic for this fact.

White Sexual Magic requires no protection because it is 100% free of danger. I make a personal attestment to this, even if many people disagree with me.

Is not the body a temple for the soul? Indeed it is. And, is not the door into the soul found through sex (sensual love)? Why then, do we open it up to our animal desires and insatiable passions? Do we not know that the fire of hell is our own burning passion? Do we not know that, as a candle burns itself out of wax, so do our burning passions burn us out of soul?

Chela, I agree with a lot of your contention. But not with the one about contraception.

Sex that is licensed and in accordance with traditional Chritian morality, is good between me and my legally sanctioned partner: no need absolutely to be white or black magic sex.

On the other hand, whatever Christian morality there be from traditions, my own mindset is more founded upon concerns for health and freedom from avoidable complications in life. Let's not make life more complicated and convoluted than we can easily avoid, namely, by as I said sticking to licensed sex.

Pachomius2000

[Chela]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Contraceptive allows the most initimate physical expression of love - but without the reproductive consequences of union of two fertile bodies.

At all levels of our lives we usually turn to some aspect of technology to help enhance some aspect of life - from use of automated transport to move over distances, to telecommunciations to pass messages on faster.

Somehow I would have personal difficulty understanding the reasoning aganist contraception unless in the context of "all technology is wrong".

Generally, I think there is more bad technology than good. But I am not against technology in itself. This also doesn't mean that I refuse to use it, because now society depends on these things, which means each unit of society must depend on it as well...

Society creates problems through bad technology and makes more bad technology to fix them, which creates more problems.. This is why we "need" most of this stuff.

Contraceptives are unneeded in a society that contains willpower (obviously, the world today has no willpower at all). Foremost, we need to find someone to love before finding some to lust (no sex unless the two will be together for that entire life, for karmic reasons, of which physical health is a part of). Secondly, the man should not spill 100s of millions of sperm within the carnal act. If a baby is not wanted, then to do spill the semen. If a baby is not wanted and the semen is not spilt and by some rare chance pregnancy occurs, then that is a choice baby, indeed. That truly is the will of god.

Simply, if a baby is not wanted then one should not have sex. But it is better to make love than to repress it. So, make love with your spouse but do not reach spasm. Not just once, not just for a week, but everyday, for the rest of your life. That is truly venerating the Sabbath! Make love for hours, but intelligently withdraw from coitus before spasm. That is the key. Then you will know what willpower is. Then you will know what it means to be a Master over your mind, your emotion and your body. Until then, one is a fool to talk about willpower. Quickly, one realizes that having sex without reaching spasm is the most normal thing one can do -- even if it is the most difficult thing one can do. It helps makes one physically strong, emotionally stable and mentally sharp.

"Semen retention is very valuable for both spiritual and material health. Semen retained in the body goes upwards to nourish the brain, rendering the body robust, and the memory and intellect incredibly sharp. Confidence, determination, optimism, willpower, fixed intelligence, noble character, photographic memory and shining good health are all fruits of conserved semen... In the beginning, Brahma created four great sages named Sanaka, Sananda, Sanatana and Sanat-kumara. All of them were unwilling to adopt materialistic activities because they were highly elevated due to their semen’s flowing upwards." – Mahamantra Das Brahmacari

Getting back on track...

Sex is many things... but at least we can understand that it has no less than two functions: one of either spiritual paroxysm (sex magic) or physical paroxysm (orgasm), and one of procreation. To separate one or the other is artificial sex. Those who have sex simply to procreate ("I want a child") and those who have sex simply for desire ("I don't want a child but still want to have sex") believe that they have the right to muzzle or alter the perfect machine that created them: Mother Nature. This is the technology we should be against. To alter mother nature is to alter Beethoven’s works... it is stupid because they are already perfect.

Instead of altering perfection let us alter imperfection. Instead of altering Mother Nature let us alter our own psychology. Let us understand what a radical transformation of the self is, and what it entails. Let us find and alter our own soul (psyche - psychology) through inner self reflection upon the serene lake of the mind (meditation). There is no doubt that this method which I am recommending and which every hierophant has as well, is a billion times more difficult, but it is the only method that truly works.

To debate upon whether or not artificial sex is moral I care not to unfold into another polemic. I already know that it is wrong -- even if that statement sounds a bit dogmatic.

(I wish to make it clear that in many ways I am a hypocrite, because the wonderful woman I am with, I found through drinking and lust and fornication and contraceptives.... It was only later that I consciously choose to begin to remove the errors of my psychology.)

[I, Brian]

Chela, what you are advocating is effectively sexual repression - if you advocate that couples partake of penetration and nothing else, then you have woefully misunderstood the sex act as an act of love and partnership.

Sex in this regard isn't about Willpower - but about embracing your natural human and spiritual levels of expression.

To deny yourself of that, excepting with the express ergard of making babies is - in my personal opinion - a sign of nothing more than heavy sexual repression - the repression of the natural spiritual outlets of expression.

There is nothing at all natural about trying to avoid the spillage of the "seed" because the body ensures that it will naturally ejaculate, whether forced or through involuntary "emissions".

And I don't see any validated claim that the retention of semen provides any kind of "nourishment for the brain" unless someone already feels strongly that release of semen somehow dooms the self - a psychological issue, not a physical issue.

I did a stint of sexual celibacy a while back - I came out realising that complete sexual repression is completely unnatural and serves little purpose in itself.

[Chela]

Originally Posted by I, Brian

Chela, what you are advocating is effectively sexual repression - if you advocate that couples partake of penetration and nothing else, then you have woefully misunderstood the sex act as an act of love and partnership.

What I am advocating is sexual transmutation. This is different than repression. This is different than hedonism. This is different than natural expression.

Take it for what it is worth, and decide whether ass or man shall be master. He alone can possess truly the pleasure of love who has conquered the love of pleasure. To be able and to forbear is to be twice able.- Eliphas Levi

Sex in this regard isn't about Willpower - but about embracing your natural human and spiritual levels of expression.

The true human, which an Angel or a Buddha, does not fornicate. Only animals fornicate. For the man to loose 250 million sperm, when only one sperm is necessary to procreate, is absolutely fornication.

The only thing that makes us different than animals is our intellect. Only the human is able to consciously sacrifice. I am not saying that it is easy, nor is it not a huge sacrifice, it is indeed a large one.

To deny yourself of that, excepting with the express ergard of making babies is - in my personal opinion - a sign of nothing more than heavy sexual repression - the repression of the natural spiritual outlets of expression.

I am little confused what you are saying. If you saying that I said that sex is for making children only, then I have been misunderstood.

Those who have sex only for procreation are just as wrong as those who have sex just for pleasure. They are too sides of the same coin, they are both attempting to muzzle sex into what their own concepts and desires.

Honestly, how can we say “Sex is not just for procreation, that is wrong, but it is ok that sex is just for pleasure and natural expression because we invented technology with our amazing intellect that allows it to be.”

Just because something allows it to be doesn’t mean it should be. Contraceptives, I will say this once again because this point was missed previously, are not natural. Contraceptives are artificial, so, how is using contraceptives a natural expression?

There is nothing at all natural about trying to avoid the spillage of the "seed" because the body ensures that it will naturally ejaculate, whether forced or through involuntary "emissions".

Those who do not transmute the sexual energy will indeed have many nocturnal emissions. I am awaiting the day that a Priest or Nun will make this fact known publicly. However, one who transmutes the sexual energy will not have nocturnal emissions. This is a fact.

So to state that the body will always remove this energy is incorrect. If it is successfully transmuted, either through sexual magic or through pranayama (for singles), then it will not be spilled during sleep. But we must transmute it, or it will absolutely be shamefully wasted in our dreams.

And I don't see any validated claim that the retention of semen provides any kind of "nourishment for the brain" unless someone already feels strongly that release of semen somehow dooms the self - a psychological issue, not a physical issue.

Well, I am sure that no amount of logic or discussion will make this theory I am talking about a living reality. If one wishes to practice and prove the living reality to themselves, let it be so. If one wishes to remain in theory, then not even God can show them the truth.

But maybe this will help: Let us talk about Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve represent many things, one of which is the Masculine (Adam) and Feminine (Eve) energies within our body. Adam is the Intellect. The Intellect is a tool for the Spirit when it does good and a tool of the Demon when it does bad. When Adam is in the Garden he is doing the will of the spirit. Eve is the aspect of sexuality, because it is when her that everything is born and dies. This is why Eve picks the forbidden fruit, because eating it represents fornication, which is within the sphere of Eve.

When they leave the Garden, they have Cain. Cain is a worker of the "Earth" which is Malkuth, meaning, Cain only works with is five physical senses. Abel was a worker of sheep, which of course has to do with spirituality when referenced in the Bible. Cain offered the fruit of the ground to God. That is to say, the same fruit that Eve ate, Cain was offering to God. Abel offered the fat of his sheep, and God gave respect to that of Abel, but not of Cain.

So Cain, the Animal Intellect that grows stronger through eating the fruit of the ground, kills Abel, the Spirit because he became weak because the Intellect has become so strong that it overpowers the Spirit.

Today, the intellect is very strong, but it is not Wisdom. Intellect is false logic that appears from only looking at the fruits of the earth, because the intellect cannot see the spirit: it is an ignorant intellect.

4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

4:6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

4:11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; 4:12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. (King James Bible, Genesis)

The fruits of the earth is the sexual seed within man and woman. If you eat and enjoy these fruits (orgasm) and offer that to God you will kill your spirit. This is what the Bible says.

Strength in the Bible means sexual strength. This why we need to love with all our hear, our soul, our mind and our strength. This is why Samson when Samson lost his strength he became a fornicator.

So, in 4:11, when we till the ground (waste the fruit) we will loose our strength, and become vagabonds of the intellect.

12:32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. (King James Bible, Mark)

Delilah puts Samson to sleep and there she removes the strength of Hercules (Samson). Delilah is Eve, but in this story it is the sinister Eve, the Eve outside of God's Paradise. Samson falls psychologically asleep under the temptations of Delilah and then Samson looses his strength. He strength is within his sex, which is represented by the uncut hair.

If these quotes help, then let it be. But if not, then I fear that no amount of words can.

I did a stint of sexual celibacy a while back - I came out realising that complete sexual repression is completely unnatural and serves little purpose in itself.

Correct. Celibacy is fornication because it is wasting the sexual energy in the same way that spilling the 250 million seeds is wasting the energy. As you said yourself, the body will remove itself of its unused energy through nocturnal emissions.

Sexual transmutation is something different, and this can be verified by everyone reading if they wish to.

[Susma Rio Sep]

The way I see it, Brian represents what I might consider to be the liberal humanistic approach to sex in men and women.

Chela represents almost the totality of Roman Catholic approach to sex among men and women, except that very subtle part about doing coitus but without ejaculation if both partners, we may assume, are agreed about preventing pregnancy.

From what I know about Roman Catholic sexual morality, and I am a postgraduate Catholic -- I learned my Catholicism from within the family, home, and community, from Catholic nursery school and all the way to postgraduate studies, and from long continuous years of finding out what is morally right and morally wrong in my personal life, by consulting the most authoritative sources of Catholic morality in written sources, and in living people representing the official magisterium, namely:

if you get started with coitus, you have to get it completed all the way to consummation while still in coitus, and with of course the ejaculation of the semen into the vaginal recesses of the female partner; otherwise it is at least unworthy if not sinful however slight be the degree of sinfulness.

I don't believe in that kind of a sex ideology since becoming a postgraduate Catholic. I have come to regard contraception as perfectly all right.

But for that exception consisting in acceptance of contraception, my view of sex now is still quite Catholic, for my own personal life I do sex exclusively with my lawfully married wife; and in my own home where I am the teacher and the supervisor, for my two kids, a girl and a boy, I expect them to embrace my sex ideology as well. And I think I have been successful.

When the children are on their own, then they can adopt the liberal humanism of Brian, and I will not have any objections except to remind them abot hygiene, sanitation, and avoiding unwanted pregnancy with safe and effective contraception.


Coming back to Brian and Chela, I think, in my assessment as an intelligent and practical person, that Brian is in the right track; Chela does not seem to have her feet on terra firma, owing to her adherence to esoteric speculations which I presume has no basis in scientific human sexology and in medicine.

Pachomius2000

[Susma Rio Sep]

I am still waiting for Vajradhara to come up with the facts about sex magik.

In the meantime I must apologize in regard to my attitude on sex magik for the following assumptions about its practitioners:

1. That they are into promisucous sex;

2. That they are not comfortable with people knowing the sex magik they are doing;

3. That their kind of sex magik could be against the legal code of the civil society;

4. That persons of leadership status are exploiting persons under them for sex;

5. That they have no scientific knowledge about sexual hygiene, sanitationn, and the need for contraception;

6. That their esoteric speculations about sex magik and whatever they intend to achieve in the so-called spiritual or psychic or mystical spheres are a lot of pure wistful thinking, all in their minds, without any shred of evidence in real life.

I am apologizing because the practitioners of sex magik could be truly sincere, and they honestly believe in their speculations; so that on that ground I am not being fair to them.

On the other hand, whatever of sincerity and honesty, if their sex magik should be in any way contrary to universal norms of sexual propriety and the legal enactments of civil society, if I have the power I will restrain them from their practice of sex magik; even though I don't condemn them on ethical grounds.

So, Vajradhara, shall we have the facts, please.

Pachomius2000

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,


all these posts... so many to respond to and so little time to do so!

drat!

the "key" for understanding the Taoist alchemical literature, as posited by Liu I-ming is the proper understanding of the symbolic language that is being used. this is critically important as a slight miss can lead one down a byway... which is how the Complete Reality school terms the alchemical praxis that deviate from a consciousness transformation practice.

they single out the sexual and energy circulation schools of taoist praxis, in particular, for examples of misunderstanding of the terms.

as time permits, i shall post some of the key terms and explanations in the Taoist thread. as an aside, some of this is currently in this thread:

Taoist Spiritual Alchemy

an excerpt here:

Nevertheless, later students did not look into the meaning of the code words and did not figure out the principles of the symbols. Seeing talk of gold elixir, lead, mercury, cauldron, and furnace, they thought it refered to the preparation of potions to ingest and the took to chemistry. Seeing talk of raven and rabbit, dragon and tiger, they thought it referred to the internal organs, and they took to visualization exercises. Seeing talk of other and self, yin and yang, male and female, they thought it referred to conjugal elixir, and they took to sexual yoga. Seeing talk of going along, reversing, and inverting, they thought it referred to forced effort and they took to energy circulation exercises. Seeing talk of nondoing to cultivate essence, they took it to mean utter quiessence, and they got involved in quietism. Seeing talk of doing to cultivate life, they thought it meant exercise, and they came to cling to form. These and other schools arose, all taking a deer to be a horse, taking a crow for a phoenix, not only without benefit to essence and life, but eve to the detriment of essence and life.

[Chela]

Please allow me to correct some misunderstandings.

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

Chela represents almost the totality of Roman Catholic approach to sex among men and women, except that very subtle part about doing coitus but without ejaculation if both partners, we may assume, are agreed about preventing pregnancy.

There is also the very important fact that celibacy is inverse fonication. It is just as important as the other half, because they are two sides of the same coin.

Coming back to Brian and Chela, I think, in my assessment as an intelligent and practical person, that Brian is in the right track; Chela does not seem to have her feet on terra firma, owing to her adherence to esoteric speculations which I presume has no basis in scientific human sexology and in medicine.

Just to clear, I am a not a woman.

My words are certainly esoteric speculations to those who have not lived them, yes. However, I am not speculating on anything, I am telling you the facts. There is exoteric science and there is esoteric science. If exoteric science says there is no such thing as the subtle body, then what accounts for my expereinces within the subtle body? Exoteric science, which has always lagged esoteric science, has no idea about quite a lot of things, even so, they will say, "You did not have an OBE, that was your brain misfiring nurons." Today, it is thought that what is commonly referred to as a soul lies within the electro-chemical functions of the brain. A scientist today will never accept that the electro-chemical movements of the brain are the result of a higher cause. Let the reader believe whomever he or she wishes.

But there is direct relationships with the energies lost in orgasm and the energies used for by the brain. Have you not read the excerpts I posted on the value of saving the sexual energies? I believe it is one of the first posts in this thread.

Saving the sexual energy is more widely known in the oriental scriptures.
Never have I slept without a sweetheart
Nor have I spent a single drop of sperm.
- The Sixth Dalai Lama

By relying upon an external consort... who has matured through Tantric Initiation, the yogi on the highest levels of the completion stage is led to Great Bliss... For this practice one must understand the oral instructions well and have complete control of the vital energies...
- The Second Dalai Lama

The sexual act performed normally may give a slight notion of the nature of this higher consciousness, but more than that it cannot do, since the energy, instead of being trapped and put to use, is expended… creating a new physical body instead of spiritual consciousness.
- Thubten Jigme Norbu

Perhaps one day official science will validate these very strange claims I am making. But, believe and live how you wish! I am not here to convince anyone, but only to clear up all the misinformation and false assumptions regarding this topic.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Chela,

thank you for the post.

Originally Posted by Chela

Perhaps one day official science will validate these very strange claims I am making. But, believe and live how you wish! I am not here to convince anyone, but only to clear up all the misinformation and false assumptions regarding this topic.

ah... but you see.. it's irrelevant if western empirical science can validate these beliefs or not... which, i'll note, are not yours alone. the three references that you've listed are all from my school of Buddhism

the subtle psychic body does exist, as you've clearly discerned. as for science... it's a good tool, but it is not infallible....even with relatively well known subjects... like, electrons, for instance. you've got to love that Heisenberg fellow

[Erynn]

Originally Posted by Chela

String theory, is just that, theory.. We are not 100% sure on that, but yes, there can be a machine that exists within multiple dimensions, according string theory, it is 11 dimensions. Occording thesophy, it is seven dimensions.

Yes, but everything in science is pretty much a theory. Even scientific "laws" have often been shown false. We can't have 100% proof of anything.

I can refer to a scripture or other acient text of wisdom for everything I say, but then people think I am just reapeating what I have memorized. Many times, I choose to speak from my own voice, even if it is no more valid than anyone else, as you have correctly pointed out.

Yes, but there's the additional issue of debate by appeal to authority -- it all depends on what authorities people within the debate accept. I don't accept the bible or other Christian holy texts as my spiritual authority, for instance, because I'm not a Christian.


Regarding condoms:

Honestly, I whole hardedly disagree. I found it absolutely retardant. Contraceptives are nothing more than an excuse to justify many things, and I was completely mistaken to have ever used them.

I thought you never praticed?

Here is what I originally said.

I am an interested party, but have not participated yet myself, except in the solo sense to help raise and direct energy for things on occasion. I am hoping to change that at some point. I make no claims to any expertise, but I've read and conversed on the subject with a number of practitioners over the years.

I have worked solo. I have also done a couple of things that involved possession trance work and sexual magic, though it was not of the sort you're talking about. It was not intended in any alchemical fashion, but as deific contact, and to accomplish spiritual and magical goals. Therefore, I didn't count those experiences.

What I can tell you is that they were extremely powerful experiences, that in one case condoms were involved, and that the condoms made absolutely no difference in the workings or the quality of the experience. In both cases, they were far more about the experience of deity than anything having to do with exchange of fluids -- which was, in fact, irrelevant. So, in my experience (admittedly quite limited), condoms have made no difference. I have worked with bodily fluids for other purposes on many occasions, but it was not in any way intended as sex magic, simply as a source of power for various workings.

I suppose that my attitude is greatly influenced by the fact that some of the deities I work with and worship are known or assumed to have same-sex interactions as well as opposite-sex interactions. Some are shapeshifters, for whom gender and shape are irrelevant

You have found what is true and right for you. This doesn't mean that it is, by its nature, true and right universally.