Sex Magik

[Susma Rio Sep]

And I want to add: beware of the parasitic fauna and flora which find in the pubis and anal region of humans the most hospitable milieu for their settlement and propagation.

No amount of esoteric, mystical, religious, Tantric, Buddhist, or what you have of speculative fantasies will save you from them, and their hosts of most discomfiting annoyances and misfortunes.

In this connection I observe than our four legged siblings are better off than us.

Just the same, to my own medical knowledge of a veterinary kind, if there be parasitic fauna and flora in the pubis and anal region, try pesticides, insecticides, and herbicides, but make sure first that they are of the kinds that do not cause any damage to tissues, and do not penetrate beyond the skin to the layers of cells beyond.

If it's safe for cats and dogs, it will be safe for you and me.


About sex magik and Tantric sex, I like to have accounts of sexual epidemiology from professional health workers having hands-on contacts with practitioners of such arcane habits, who (health workers, that is) should really be very busy with people who are into sex magik and Tantric sex.

For all their enlightenment derived from or by way of sex magik or Tantric sex, they will never rid themselves of their sex related medical woes unless and until they check into the nearest even just government health center -- total confidentially guaranteed.

Pachomius2000

[Erynn]

Originally Posted by Susma Rio Sep

And I want to add: beware of the parasitic fauna and flora which find in the pubis and anal region of humans the most hospitable milieu for their settlement and propagation.

No amount of esoteric, mystical, religious, Tantric, Buddhist, or what you have of speculative fantasies will save you from them, and their hosts of most discomfiting annoyances and misfortunes.
...
For all their enlightenment derived from or by way of sex magik or Tantric sex, they will never rid themselves of their sex related medical woes unless and until they check into the nearest even just government health center -- total confidentially guaranteed.

You've got THAT right. At the heart if it, sexual magic's about energies mixing, and their interplay, not about physical body fluids.

[sjr]

But Alchemical Magick IS ABOUT mixing body fluids AND I WANTED TO KNOW HOW THAT GOT MIXED INTO SEXUAL MAGIC.Which still goes unanswered.And who in Shivas name is still doing it.

[Erynn]

Originally Posted by sjr

But Alchemical Magick IS ABOUT mixing body fluids AND I WANTED TO KNOW HOW THAT GOT MIXED INTO SEXUAL MAGIC.Which still goes unanswered.And who in Shivas name is still doing it.

There's really no need to shout. Alchemy in Europe in the middle ages may or may not have been about mixing of actual bodily fluids. It was certainly couched in sexual language, but there's a good deal to suggest that the actual shift from chemistry to sex came about much later, and that the original Alchemy (in a non-Jungian sense) was about an actual search for a way to transform base metal into gold. In fact, alchemy is considered the art which gave birth to the science of chemistry.

I really think that Jung had a lot to do with western alchemy transforming from chemical experimentation into into sexual magic. I think Taoist alchemy always had a sexual component to it, but I don't know enough avout the history to be sure. I'm suspecting that that, and Hindu and Buddhist sexual magic sprang from some forms of Tantricism and eventually became a form of alchemy.

Yes, there are people who still do things the unsafe way, which is probably why some of them insist so much on heterosexual married monogamy.

[bgruagach]

While Tantra is one of the more obvious forms of sexual magick it's not the only form. Witchcraft lore has long included references to the use of bodily fluids (blood, sweat, saliva, as well as sexual secretions) as spell components. The Inquisition's descriptions of the mythical witches' sabbath also tends to have a lot of sexual content although of course it could have been included as just another way to portray non-Christians as immoral.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,


in the Taoist Alchemical schools view (though i only practice the Northern Complete Reality School, so others may disagree) the sexual praxis that sprang up around the overall alchemical schools was/is considered to be a minor byway and, usually, one ends up missing the point.

the 18th century alchemical master Liu I-ming in his seminal text, Awakening to the Tao, discusses this very issue in some detail and he explains why this is not the correct understanding of the alchemical texts.

in essence, his point is that the "twilight" language of the alchemical texts is difficult to dicipher without a proper key. people misunderstood the terms and thus became confused about what the point of the praxis is.

in the Buddhist Tantric tradition, the actual physical act is rarely practiced. for more information on Buddhist Tantric praxis, please review this thread:
http://www.comparative-religion.com/...read.php?t=904

[Erynn]

Originally Posted by bgruagach

While Tantra is one of the more obvious forms of sexual magick it's not the only form. Witchcraft lore has long included references to the use of bodily fluids (blood, sweat, saliva, as well as sexual secretions) as spell components. The Inquisition's descriptions of the mythical witches' sabbath also tends to have a lot of sexual content although of course it could have been included as just another way to portray non-Christians as immoral.

This is quite true, but I think a lot of it was in fact Inquisitional creation. So much was extracted from people under torture that most would say anything merely to get the torture to stop.

Much of the sexual magic of modern Witchcraft has to do with producing bodily fluids for use in spells or the making of charms, and isn't necessarily concerned with an alchemical mixing of fluids in the body.

[Erynn]

Originally Posted by Chela

Ethics, in a transcendental sense, is in reality a search for the Absolute. Relative ethical theory makes no sense if one is searching for the Absolute Truth. Certainly, our beliefs affect our view on life. And one can believe that what they don't believe is irrelevant.

But none of this type of thinking has any bearing on the Harsh Reality, the unbending Truth.

I don't believe there is one Absolute Truth. I don't believe there is one single Reality.

At least we cannot see it in black and white terms, that is for sure. That is why we make mistakes. That is why we are mistaken.

So what you are suggesting is that unless we see things in absolute terms of black and white, we are wrong. Life rarely seems to work that way.

Forget about intentions. Certainly, we always need good intentions. That is a given, a prerequisite. But, intentions mean nothing. Good intentions mean nothing when the outcome, the reality is horrible. Good intentions, by themselves, will never produce anything.

In this case, to you, the outcome seems "horrible." To others it is not. (Un)fortunately, we are all able to judge the results of our actions in our own lives when it comes to physical results of health and happiness. What makes me happy may not make you happy. What makes you happy may not make me happy. Intention and action are both necessary.

Lets take a look at Hippie Revolution. The same people talking about peace and love are now businessmen and polticians. What happened? They had such beautiful intentions.

And some of them still fight the good fight, but you rarely hear anything about them. It's not "newsworthy."

Erynn, everything you told me, I believed with all of my heart and soul, not but a few years ago. But all of it is false.

It is your perception that all of it is false. Paradoxes can be true. It's pretty obvious you and I will not convince each other here. How can anyone determine Absolute Truth when we are, by our nature, limited? Even science doesn't necessarily provide absolutes -- scientific theory changes constantly with the acquisition of new knowledge, and what people believe as a scientific "article of faith" today may very well be laughed at as the basest ignorance ten years from now.

The best cases against Degenerative Sexual Magic are those who have made it so popular, such as Aleister Crowley and Rasputin.

Neither Crowley nor Rasputin were particularly decent folk to begin with, and while I have read Crowley, I find his reputation to far exceed his actual accomplishments. I know a lot of decent folk who are doing sexual magic that you refer to as "degenerative." They sure don't look or act like degenerates to me. Homosexuality and bisexuality are not "degenerate," even when people are practicing this in their sexual magic; they are natural states of being. Monogamous marriage for life is a relatively modern invention, which demonstrably did not occur in all times and places throughout history.

Repetition may convince, but it doesn't always make things so. I suspect we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Chela]

I don't believe there is one Absolute Truth. I don't believe there is one single Reality.

But 2+2 is 4.

The universe is just a machine. Man is just a machine. Everything that exist is under ceratian laws of mechanics. The universe is just a machine we cannot comprehend, a machine that attempts to self realize the creator. Yes, man is just a machine, he is in many respects just a magnet and he can maginitize himself with thoughts of the bar, with drugs, with love, with money... with sex too. And the things one becomes is what is attractited to him. The comdies and dramas of the drunk are exactly because he has created those situations to occur to him...

Obviously we disagree. But to think that the only thing that is real is perceptions, I don't see how that works in total. How does the universe exist if it is not real? Are you not real, are you nothing more than a thin abstraction of perception?

Perception is subjectivism (correct me if I am wrong). A subject cannot exist without an object, that is to say, a perception can not exist if there is not something real to percieve. OR, a subject (subjectivism, us, the human mind) cannot exist without an object (objectivism, Him, the creator, the truth). The subject (the human mind/creation itself) emerges from the object (the truth/Sat/Ain) in order to observe the object, with the purpose to eventually become conscious of object. This is the meaning of life: to become conscious of the truth.

Humans (all of us anyway) cannot see it, once again I agree, but, I do not understand how that justifies anything.

I agree 100% that the mind can know nothing but its perceptions and senses. But, outside of the mind reigns the Spirit, who is already perfect, and in that, an atom of truth. The Yogi meditates to free himself of the mind and temporarly reunite with the truth. The Buddhist attempts to awaken to this truth in a non-temporal fashion.

It would not be saying this if I have not directly experienced it, even if it is only the slightest bit. I would not be talking about these matters, sexual magic, sexuality, etc., unless I have lived them.

When I put myself in my shoes of a few years ago, I would not believe me either. So, like you said, we disagree.

[Susma Rio Sep]

First a humor aside:

Vajradhara says:

the 18th century alchemical master Liu I-ming in his seminal text, Awakening to the Tao, discusses this very issue in some detail and he explains why this is not the correct understanding of the alchemical texts.

"alchemical master Liu I-ming in his seminal text"

[/b]. . . seminal text . . . [/b] Do we have here a pun intended or not intended or a Freudian slip? Hehehehe.


Vajradhara to my observation would seem to be the most knowledgeable about Buddhism, Tantrism, Taoism, and affined systems, in this forum.

Now, I would like to learn from Vajradhara, from his vast readings and also presumably close encounters with practices of sex magik, was there and is there still physical sex, that is: contact and stimulation between body organs or parts for sensual excitation leading to orgasm or close to orgasm, between people of opposite or similar sexes, in Buddhism or Tantrism, also in Taoism?

And is the ideology of such sex magik practices and even routines founded upon the idea of sex as a way and means for enlightenment of whatever kind the participants intend to achieve, or even to arrive easier or more certainly or quicker at Nirvana?

From my own limited reading, I am certain that such practices exist and for such esoteric purpose of arriving at enlightenment and even Nirvana.

And my comment is this: Buddhist and Tantric theoreticians have succeeded in blending the utmost of sensuality with the apex of spirituality, so that the first is a way and means to the second.

What a bonanza!

Susma Rio Sep

[I, Brian]

Reading this thread about Sex Magick, and people's use of sex for magickal purposes - I hope I am not the only person left feeling somewhat sexually dull.

[Chela]

Originally Posted by Erynn

There's really no need to shout. Alchemy in Europe in the middle ages may or may not have been about mixing of actual bodily fluids. It was certainly couched in sexual language, but there's a good deal to suggest that the actual shift from chemistry to sex came about much later, and that the original Alchemy (in a non-Jungian sense) was about an actual search for a way to transform base metal into gold. In fact, alchemy is considered the art which gave birth to the science of chemistry.

I really think that Jung had a lot to do with western alchemy transforming from chemical experimentation into into sexual magic. I think Taoist alchemy always had a sexual component to it, but I don't know enough avout the history to be sure. I'm suspecting that that, and Hindu and Buddhist sexual magic sprang from some forms of Tantricism and eventually became a form of alchemy.

Yes, there are people who still do things the unsafe way, which is probably why some of them insist so much on heterosexual married monogamy.

Lets break down Alchemy: "AL" (Allah) or "El" (Elohim), meaing God. Chem or Khem is from from the Greek "kimia," meaning to fuse together. Khem is also the acient land of Egypt (holy land).

Therefore, Alchemy, "To fuse with God" means the same exact thing as Yoga (yug - union) and Religion (religare - to reunite).

So those people who say otherwise, I think they do not know what they are talking about.

I insist on reading the scriptures. They have wisdom beyond our ability to comprehend.

In the Pistis Sophia, Jesus says:

(comments in paraenthesis)

"CHAPTER 147
Of the chastisement of the homosexual

"Bartholomew said: "A man who hath intercourse with a male what is his vengeance?"

"Jesus said: "The measure of the man who hath intercourse with males and of the man with whom he lieth, is the same as that of the blasphemer.
"When then the time is completed through the sphere (of Malkuth, Earth), the receivers of Yaldabaoth (the Verb, Logos) come after their soul, and he with his forty-and-nine (seven times seven, the theosophical septenary) demons taketh vengeance on it eleven years (Arcanum 11: Persuasion).

"Thereafter they carry it to the fire-rivers and seething pitch-seas, which are full of demons with pigs' faces (related with the demons Jesus cast out of the possesed whose name is Legion, into pigs, who then cast themselves in to water of life). They eat into them and take vengeance on them in the fire-rivers another eleven years (11 + 11 = 22, which is which is the Alpha and the Omega, in this case refering to the Omega, 2 + 2 = 4, the Tetragrammaton. Meaning they will return to God, but without a self realized soul).

"Thereafter they carry them into the outer darkness until the day of judgment (karma) when the great darkness is judged; and then they (the failed souls) will be dissolved and destroyed (to set the spirit free)."

"Of the chastisement of a foul act of sorcery

"Thomas said: "We have heard that there are some on the earth who take the male seed and the female monthly blood, and make it into a lentil porridge and eat it, saying: 'We have faith in Esau and Jacob.' Is this then seemly or not?"

"Jesus was wroth with the world in that hour and said unto Thomas:

"Amen, I say: This sin is more heinous than all sins and iniquities. Such men will straight way be taken into the outer darkness and not be cast back anew into the sphere (will not 'reincarnate' on earth again), but they shall perish, be destroyed in the outer darkness in a region where there is neither pity nor light, but howling and grinding of teeth. And all the souls which shall be brought into the outer darkness, will not be cast back anew, but will be destroyed and dissolved."

I am confused as to what you are referenced about safety.

[Erynn]

Originally Posted by Chela

But 2+2 is 4.

Unless you're using a different system than the standard base 10. In binary, that equation can't even exist. Just ask any mathemetician

The universe is just a machine. Man is just a machine. Everything that exist is under ceratian laws of mechanics.

I was under the impression that this view of the universe went out with the Victorians? From what I understand, Einstein's theories, and the developments of subatomic particle physics, quantum physics, chaos theory, and string theory have left science in one of those "there are more things than are dreamt of..." states of understanding. I mean, string theory postulates multiple universes, wherein the rules may be different in each.

Yes, man is just a machine, he is in many respects just a magnet and he can maginitize himself with thoughts of the bar, with drugs, with love, with money... with sex too. And the things one becomes is what is attractited to him. The comdies and dramas of the drunk are exactly because he has created those situations to occur to him...

So you're suggesting that non-monogamous, non-heterosexual people practicing sexual magic are like drunks?

How does the universe exist if it is not real? Are you not real, are you nothing more than a thin abstraction of perception?

Far greater philosophers than I have struggled with this question in East and West for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

Perception is subjectivism (correct me if I am wrong). A subject cannot exist without an object, that is to say, a perception can not exist if there is not something real to percieve.

But we are able to perceive things that are "not real" according to common wisdom -- dreams, the images of vision, and such like.

It would not be saying this if I have not directly experienced it, even if it is only the slightest bit. I would not be talking about these matters, sexual magic, sexuality, etc., unless I have lived them.

Would it surprise you if I said that my experience of the universe is different? That I have experienced a multiplicity of deities, a multiplicity of universes that seem parallel and not quite like this one, that I believe that dream in many cases has as much reality as the computer I touch as I'm typing here?

Why is your experience more valid than mine or other people's? I think you have taken your personal revelatory experience and are applying it as though it governs every other thing in existence. Leg and trunk of the elephant and all that. I'm not even sure human beings are capable of perceiving the entire elephant, to be honest. And for all we know, there may be more out there than just the elephant -- jaguars and palm trees and oceans and clouds...

For you, what you have experienced is absolute and monistic. My experience, my mystical perception, is something that I interpret as personal and multivalent. In the universe I perceive and live in, sexual magic is not dependent upon gender or the legalism of heterosexual monogamy to function. Some power certainly resides in bodily fluids -- it is part of the principle of sympathetic magic that a thing connected to a person (hair, nail clippings, etc) shares energy with that person and can be used as a focus for magic being done to or for that person. This is one of the principles that underlies the use of blood in magic as well, and why in some Pagan traditions a drop of blood is taken from the postulant at initiation, to link their energies with those of the group.

But it is also a part of the spiritual worldview that I share with many others, that the triadic is more stable and more active than the dualistic -- where duality is a static balance, triplicity is balance in motion. There are three "cauldrons" with in the body wherein energy is gathered and processed in both a spiritual and magical sense. Energies may be physical, emotional, or spiritual, and sexuality can be expressed on all three of those basic levels. Strict dualism isn't really a principle in our system. Where we acknowledge both day and night, the true time of power for us is in the liminal state of dawn/dusk -- the places between -- and so it can be argued that sexuality falls into this liminal between place, where gender (the "night" and "day" of male and female bodies at least -- the metaphor doesn't extend to intersexed or otherwise hermaphroditic bodies ) is irrelevant because what is important is what takes place in the interstices, in the ambiguous and the transgendered, in the transcendence of duality.

In the path I practice, deity is frequently found in triadic forms, or in triplicities. Deities may be three sisters or three brothers, sometimes of the same name. It may arrange itself in triads of two Gods and a Goddess, or two Goddesses and a God. Things and beings are often found in nines, as well, a tripling of the triplicity, making it more powerful and more sacred. When these are sacred models, sexuality and the potentials of sexual magic expand beyond the bounds of strict heterosexual and monistic frameworks.

Not everyone in this world, or even in this forum, is monotheistic. Not all of us live by the same set of assumptions or the same guiding texts. Not all of our religions regard homosexuality (or eating shellfish and wearing a cotton/linen blend, for that matter) as an abomination, or non-monogamy as a sin.

The framework you have chosen to work within, and the worldview that you accept as correct is not the same as mine. To me, the "truths" of monotheistic religions are no more than another opinion on the nature of reality. I regard their texts as interesting and sometimes useful, but not reflective of absolute reality. It's no more to me than any other text on philosophy, and by the limited nature of human perception, it cannot reflect any "absolute" reality or truth, merely some corner of it. Each text is the preserved, and often mistranslated record of the opinion of other human beings. By the nature of human experience, there can be no genuine "objectivity," for everything is processed through our senses, and our senses can be fooled -- or expanded.

Physics tells us that "solid matter" conists almost entirely of the space between atoms and subatomic particles. This is supposedly "objective" reality. Yet the human hand still generally stops when it impacts a wall, and that's another form of "objective" reality. When we get to the level of subatomic particles, we are dealing with far more than just positively and negatively charged protons and neutrons. We deal with things like light appearing to be both a particle and a wave, with particles that have "charm" and "strangeness," with the idea that everything that is might be one subatomic particle speeding around the entire universe and transcending time and space in the most astonishing and incomprehensible manner.

In the face of such things, I don't dare declare an Absolute Truth that applies to every person in every time and every place. In a worldview like this, there is room for the realities of the intersexed, of the hermaphroditic, of the androgynous. There is room for homoeroticism and pansexuality in this liminal twilight.

And when approached lovingly and responsibly and with regard and respect for all involved, it's all good.

Or, as Robert Heinlein once said about one size fits all religion, "it's like socks on a rooster. It looks silly and annoys the rooster."

[Chela]

Vajradhara is the one who holds the thunderbolt. Vajradhara is a phallic reference.

Vajradhara (the one who is talking on this board): I disagree that this tantric reference is only something to meditate on.

Sexual magic is called the Great Magical Secret by Elphas Levi and by every occultist and estoteric master because it was never taught in public. For this reason, most scholars have no idea what they are talking about. Sexual magic is the highest synthesis of the Path of the Middle way because one does not induldge their desire (because orgasm is never reached), but nor does one avert from it. That is the living, breathing, Middle Way of Life. That is the true meaning of chastity (never fornicating the sexual force), which is different than celibacy (averting form the sexual force).

The Path of the Middle way is seen in the acient glyph known as the Tree of Life (Kabbalah), which has three pillars. The left is the Pillar of Severity, the right is the Pillar of Mercy, and the center is the Pillar of Equilibrium. This pillar contains, most notably, Yesod (9th Sphere: Thou Shalt Not Covet Thy Neighbor's Wife), Tiphereth, (6th Sphere: Thou Shalt Not Fornicate), Daath (Tantra or the Tree of Knowledge (Gnosis), the opposite triangles converging, the Star of David is tantric) which is, of course, the last step to reach the supernal.

(The Tree of Life is absolutely related with the 10 Commandments because Moses was a master Kabbalahist.)

I am interested, however: What did Liu I-ming say the proper key was?

Tantra is the thread, related with the Loom of God (The Weaver), Arcanum 24, which is 2+4=6, the Lovers (the choice between the Virgin and the Harlot).

This is the very first paragraph of the Pistis Sophia:
But it happened that after Jesus had risen from the dead he spent eleven (Persuasion) years speaking with his disciples. And he taught them only as far as the places of the first ordinance and as far as the places of the First Mystery, which is within the veil which is within the first ordinance, which is the 24th mystery outside and below, these which are in the second space of the First Mystery, which is before all mysteries the Father in the form of a dove (Holy Spirit, Sexuality) . And Jesus said to his disciples : "I have come forth from that First Mystery which is the last mystery, namely the 24th"..

May everyone be joyful and triumphant!

[Erynn]

Originally Posted by Chela

Lets break down Alchemy: "AL" (Allah) or "El" (Elohim), meaing God. Chem or Khem is from from the Greek "kimia," meaning to fuse together. Khem is also the acient land of Egypt (holy land).

Actually, my dictionary breaks it down to al (the definitive "the" in English) and kimiya, chemsitry, from the Late Greek khemeia or khumeia, or perhas from the Greek Khemia, Egypt.

Therefore, Alchemy, "To fuse with God" means the same exact thing as Yoga (yug - union) and Religion (religare - to reunite).

This seems to be a personal interpretation with a more mystical slant than the one in my dictionary. Even if we take it to mean something akin to "the blending" -- that can just as easily refer to chemical processes without any particular religious or sexual undertones. I will acknowledge that alchemy appears to have gotten its start as some sort of magical process.

So those people who say otherwise, I think they do not know what they are talking about.

You mean like Isaac Newton, of the laws of thermodynamics fame, who was an alchemist?

I insist on reading the scriptures.

But whose scriptures, and by what criteria are they to be judged valid? Are they holy and true because they say they are? If so, isn't that rather self-referential and arbitrary? What about all the other, contradictory scriptures, that also claim they're holy and true?

They have wisdom beyond our ability to comprehend.

I fail to see wisdom in hatred and the eternal damnation of homosexuals, though I'll agree I can't comprehend it. This isn't a philosophy I can ascribe to in any good conscience at all.

I am confused as to what you are referenced about safety.

For some of us, sexual magic does not include the mixing of bodily fluids within the body at all, and safer sex practices such as the use of condoms is done to help prevent the potential spread of disease. There doesn't seem to be any effect on the efficacy of the magical work because of it.