Selfishness and Society

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

I like the definition I emboldened above. I don't support that kind of selfishness. I just think that one has to do for them self before they have something to offer others. What I don't like is the insidious social programming which makes a virtue of self denial, ostensibly for the sake of others, but really just to make the task of institutionally managing the sheeple easier on the bean counters. There may be no I in team, but there's also no I in slave.

Chris

I wholeheartedly agree. You can deny self and still be a very self-centered and narrow-minded individual. I also think that it's hard to really love others if you don't love yourself. And hard to forgive others if you don't forgive yourself. Etc.

I dislike the use of self-denial as a value within corporations and such. All that crap of throwing out work-life balance "for the good of the team" and so forth that goes on in a lot of organizations.

I like that last sentence a ton- so catchy. This should be made into posters that are parodies on those corporate "inspirational" posters that show a racetrack or something and some sort of blather about "giving it your all" and "running a good race." I'd use a puking smiley, but there isn't one.

[Tao_Equus]

My apologies Wil, (this is becoming a lamentable habit here), for misinterpreting your early posts. Think I am suffering a bit of physical/mental exhaustion just now and its probably best I sit back and just read. The alternative is more rants and if all you are as tired of them as I am then you will be on your way to burn my keyboard.

Good discussion here though

Tao

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

Well, yeah, there is always some amount of choice. But that doesn't mean we have a free market capitalist system. Sorry, but what that means is defined by economists and you can't just redefine another field of science's concepts and then call it as you want it. In order to really communicate fruitfully within science, one has to stick with the concepts at hand and then build on them.

Whatever the issue of taxes, even aside from this- the market does not operate based on capitalist principles at this time. Forget fair market, it ain't free either, nor is it capitalist. This means it circumvents the primary good attributes of capitalism- providing incentive to care for the resource base, to have long-term planning, and that environmental costs are directly factored into production costs (and therefore link to lower profits), which would drive more sustainable productive methods. Because our system allows business to offload environmental and social costs to taxpayers, other countries, etc., they are not operating within capitalist boundaries and principles, and the true costs of production and profit levels are twisted and warped-- leading to really bad decision-making and lots of inefficiency on all fronts.

As a business owner I work in a free market economy. Sorry to hear the economics of the markets you are involved with are not free. I'm sure your friends who study or teach economics will agree... government or other organized crime is the likely culprit.

[wil]

Ok I'm still on this selfishness kick.

And I know you all are thoroughly enjoying kicking me regarding it. And that is ok, I need this thought to be drug through the sieve in order to strain out what I still hold onto as some value, some virtue.

Now I was born into this competitive capitalistic pull yourself up by the bootstraps environment. I'm not blaming that for my attitude or holding it all in high esteem, it is just a fact. I'm also not wealthy but not poor. I've been broke numerous times and in debt upto my eyeballs with no assets to support it as well.

I know at those times if I wish to turn the tide, I need to focus. I think it is similar to those wishing for the yellow jersey to ride with Lance Armstrong. There is only one thing they look at. The yellow jersey. What they eat, how they train, who they hang with, what they watch on tv, all revolves around 'is this getting me closer to insuring the yellow jersey or detrimental to my chances'?

There are a lot of things like that in life. Whatever goal you make you can make a choice of going a little beyond self interest, directly into selfishness, to achieve that goal, and you put aside considerations of others, albeit temporarily.

This is what I am getting at. There is a point where the ends justifies the means, if I stay focus, if I am selfish for the next ten years, or five minutes, I can then serve better and more fully later.

We all know the doubling of the penny. Put a penny on a chess board and each day double it. After 8 days I've only got $1.28, and after 16 only $327. But after 30 we are over 5 million dollars and by the end millions of trillions. Now I've selfishly met my temporary goal I can now utilize what I've learned, or accumulated and focus on another.

But what if, what if instead of going to school I to be a doctor or stock broker I took time off and joined the peace corp? I'd still have a valuable life, I might or might not come back and meet my goal, I'd touch some people, but at the very least delay my goal...and who knows what that means?

Back to the chess board. I'm gonna not focus 100%, I'm only gonna give this 90% effort, (I'll take 10% off each day) while I still end up with a huge number in this case, it is only 40% of what it would be if I had been selfish. If I only focus 80% I get 1/1000 the return after 64 days.

It is just an analogy. I know but it has some basis in reality.

Ok, I'll head back to my whipping post, I've got stick to bite down on.

[Tao_Equus]

Wil,
May I ask is this stemming from a pertinent decision you are currently struggling with? Not details of course....yes or no is good enough.

Tao

[wil]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Wil,
May I ask is this stemming from a pertinent decision you are currently struggling with? Not details of course....yes or no is good enough.

Tao

hmmm..... no I don't believe so (as he ponders through his current ventures to see where he may be overly selfish)

No, still don't think so. Have you got a feeling, an intuition, a psychic awareness that I should know about?

I've got fingers in a number of pies but my current selfish focus is on my kids, trying to insure they grow up with some social, financial, spiritual, environmental awareness and the ability to think for themselves.

I currently figure I've got a few more years of that and if I haven't succeeded by then I never will. Then I get to selfishly remove myself from society, no mortgage, car payment, insurance, material goods and join the peace corp or some such thing. When I tire of that I'll convert an RV to run on frenchfry oil or whatever exists at the time and maybe my kids'll be spittin out babies and I'll get to be the eccentric grandfather...

[Pathless]

Nice post, wil. Thanks for clarifying some of your thoughts on this.

I think it really comes down to a question that was asked earlier in this thread: how do you define success? If you define success as the accumulation of capital, then the "focus until you reach the goal" scenario that you've laid out makes sense, and is the way to go to become successful:

Originally Posted by wil

We all know the doubling of the penny. Put a penny on a chess board and each day double it. After 8 days I've only got $1.28, and after 16 only $327. But after 30 we are over 5 million dollars and by the end millions of trillions. Now I've selfishly met my temporary goal I can now utilize what I've learned, or accumulated and focus on another.

On the other hand, since I define success as not measured by finances, but rather manifest in the quality of my relationships and the depth of my experiences--as what I have previously referred to as interdependence, connection to nature, and deeply felt experience--then it makes no sense for me to put my nose to the grindstone, as the cliche goes, in order to reach some objective goal that will bring me financial success. For me, that simply boils down to trading my time for money.

Originally Posted by wil

But what if, what if instead of going to school I to be a doctor or stock broker I took time off and joined the peace corp? I'd still have a valuable life, I might or might not come back and meet my goal, I'd touch some people, but at the very least delay my goal...and who knows what that means?

Here you are clinging to the assumption that this person has a goal that they are postponing. What if the person doesn't have a long-term plan or goal, but lives instead to work towards (what she perceives as) the common good and/or to deepen her experience and her connections to nature and other people? Then the Peace Corps or a similar option makes perfect sense.

Is that selfish? In doing so, is she denying the world the fruits of her labor in the capitalist market? This is a factor in this argument for 'selfishness' that is not being addressed very adequately yet--i.e. corporate capitalism exploits, and even if someone acts selfishly within that corporate paradigm, they are still being manipulated by a "nameless and faceless society", to borrow c-pi's phrase, and furthering the short-sighted interests of corporations and industry. But I digress. In the Peace Corps example, could we say that this person is acting selfishly because she is denying "the world" her engagement in the dominant paradigm of consumerism and instead pursuing a lifestyle and value system that resonates with her, inspires her, fulfills her?

Now the terminology is getting all confused and flipped upside-down. If selfishness means this: thinking of what makes one happy, thinking critically about how one would like to live ideally, and then disregarding what society has tried to indoctrinate into you since you came out yr mama and living in a way that aligns with your own deepest values and aspirations then, hey hey, I agree--we should all be selfish!



Except, when we go back to that dictionary definition, it looks like we've engaged in some kind of doublespeak. That Peace Corps avenue isn't selfish in this way at all:

1. concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself; seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others. 2. arising from concern with one's own welfare or advantage in disregard of others. (emphases added)

The supposedly selfish life lived outside of consumerist norms illustrated by the Peace Corps example is not actually selfish by the dictionary definition becuase the person has realized that her happiness and success results not from the accumulation of money or other objects of status and financial wealth, but instead from engagement with communities, individuals, family and friends, and the Earth, her home.

[wil]

Namaste Pathless,

Some of what sounds like my inherent love for capitalism stems from need.

I work in the holistic community, many of the practitioners have money issues. And I don't mean a hard time paying for rent or the light bill, maybe that to, but they have 'money is the root of all evil' issues, they have 'I shouldn't be charging I should be providing this wonderful service free for all' issues.

While some of this is bred, learned behaviour, and some is admirable, it is still an issue in their lives. At the same time they dream of opening clinics or schools or serving more, helping more...well that takes money.

I've also spent years laying around with the best of them contemplating wonderful ideas and solutions, however without money, education, influence, drive, dedication, fortitude, some selfishness it aint' gonna happen. Now I'm not saying you need all of those, but one thing I have discovered, with money you can buy, hire the rest of the talent required.

So yeah, I decided to move from the bitching, moaning the world is terrible and out to get me and I deserve more mode to the lets get off my dead ass and do something about it mode.

[cyberpi]

An issue with money is that there is a faceless servitude in it wherein there is no trust, no judgment, no forgiveness, no love... simply no real relationship between the individuals, or a rather mechanical disjoint relationship at best. Do we really care about the life of the faceless Walmart employee or do we simply care that the faceless Walmart employee puts out for cheap? How about the even more faceless employee who made the product that Walmart sells? People can ascribe themselves to being faceless cogs or the masters of faceless cogs by placing the value in the servitude of total strangers who also seek the same out of that numerical currency.

If you go back to a direct free market barter system between individuals in exchanging goods and services directly without the paper currency then the currency is forced back into the faith, the good deeds, trust, giving, forgiving, honesty, reputation, risk taking, joint investment, personal accountability, etc... there is a real currency and value in the relationships if a person places the value in the relationships. So I submit that it is not that the money itself is evil, but in what we seek with it or do for it. If we seek faceless meaningless non-judgmental non-sympathetic non-caring non-forgiving relationships with it... then that is what we get.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by wil

No, still don't think so. Have you got a feeling, an intuition, a psychic awareness that I should know about?

No, no intuition, just curious.

[wil]

Originally Posted by Pathless

If selfishness means this: thinking of what makes one happy, thinking critically about how one would like to live ideally, and then disregarding what society has tried to indoctrinate into you since you came out yr mama and living in a way that aligns with your own deepest values and aspirations then, hey hey, I agree--we should all be selfish!

Dictionary definition:
1. concerned excessively or exclusively with oneself; seeking or concentrating on one's own advantage, pleasure, or well-being without regard for others. 2. arising from concern with one's own welfare or advantage in disregard of others. (emphases added)

Emphasis modified by me.

Namaste Pathless, Join the selfish path and be all you choose to be! (oops you already are, all of us)

Compare the reds are they similar?

Compare the blues are they similar?

Am I completely warped and revamping our definition of selfishness or just expanding our understanding. If one sticks to the literal definition from the dictionary, very little wiggle room, but is there a metaphysical, (beyond the literal) definition which isn't so rude and has room to include personal growth?

In a dualistic mindset must selfishness be evil a negative or can it have be seen in a positive light. And to flip that in a nondualistic mindset would it not have to contain both aspects?

[Pathless]

Very clever, wil. Now we're really playing with semantics!!

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste Pathless, Join the selfish path and be all you choose to be! (oops you already are, all of us)

Compare the reds are they similar?

Compare the blues are they similar?

Am I completely warped and revamping our definition of selfishness or just expanding our understanding. If one sticks to the literal definition from the dictionary, very little wiggle room, but is there a metaphysical, (beyond the literal) definition which isn't so rude and has room to include personal growth?

In a dualistic mindset must selfishness be evil a negative or can it have be seen in a positive light. And to flip that in a nondualistic mindset would it not have to contain both aspects?

Well, my previous statement is my response here:

Originally Posted by me (not mee)

If selfishness means this: thinking of what makes one happy, thinking critically about how one would like to live ideally, and then disregarding what society has tried to indoctrinate into you since you came out yr mama and living in a way that aligns with your own deepest values and aspirations then, hey hey, I agree--we should all be selfish!

As for your comparison, I see what you are saying, but I would like to make a distinction. I don't think that

...disregarding what society has tried to indoctrinate into you...

is the same as acting

without regard for others... or... in disregard of others.

While it is true that society is a collection of other people, it is also something else, something more abstract and "faceless," again borrowing cherrypi's terminology. The values of society are collective, and in the society that we are living within, those values are also very manufactured and manipulated.

Just because an individual rejects society's values does not mean that they act without regard for others. I can go further. In our society, oftentimes, accepting society's values leads to a disregard of others' needs and concerns.

[path_of_one]

Originally Posted by wil

Back to the chess board. I'm gonna not focus 100%, I'm only gonna give this 90% effort, (I'll take 10% off each day) while I still end up with a huge number in this case, it is only 40% of what it would be if I had been selfish. If I only focus 80% I get 1/1000 the return after 64 days.

I think all this depends on your worldview. I can't get on board because:

First, I might not live to see the return. So I give as freely as I possibly can to others, and enrich my relationships, and try to take care of the earth and the beings in my life now. Because in reality, now is all we have. We may not have tomorrow, next week, next year...

I worked in hospice for a while and I talked to some dying people, and I read a lot more accounts of the last months of dying people in preparation for that. None of them ever said they wished they had made more money, built a better career, etc. Many regretted spending time on work that they could have spent with loved ones.

It doesn't mean you have to make bad decisions, and yeah, I still choose to buy shelter and food and whatnot. But if it comes down to spending 10 hours on my weekend working, or 10 hours visiting with my family or volunteering my time or connecting with my horses or some nice trees... the stuff that is about relationship- love and connectedness- wins. If I can invest $200 or buy a plane ticket to see my grandma, my grandma wins.

If I live to be retirement age and society is still holding together and my life sucks because I can't afford to vacation or whatever- I'll know I took the time, in my youth when I had an able body and all my friends and family were alive, to give everything I could to those relationships, to the earth, to beings in general- while I could. Besides, I don't need much to be happy. If I'm poor and 70, I won't care that people consider me to be unsuccessful (I'm reclusive anyway) and it doesn't take much cash to borrow books from thel library, walk, and draw/paint. That'll be good enough for me.

American society can take its idea of success and shove it. I've seen what people regret when they are at death's door. And I'll never forget it. I'll take my time off and give what I can now.

Second, to be brief- selfishness and being overly concerned with planning for one's future goes against my spirituality, which is primarily based on Jesus' teachings. It is, to be honest, a mystery to me how most Americans are both Christian and totally enamoured with our mainstream definition of success and competitive, grinding work to accumulate junk. Jesus' teachings and American mainstream cultural values about work, success, and possessions are so contradictory that I can't see how people handle the cognitive dissonance.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

Second, to be brief- selfishness and being overly concerned with planning for one's future goes against my spirituality, which is primarily based on Jesus' teachings. It is, to be honest, a mystery to me how most Americans are both Christian and totally enamoured with our mainstream definition of success and competitive, grinding work to accumulate junk. Jesus' teachings and American mainstream cultural values about work, success, and possessions are so contradictory that I can't see how people handle the cognitive dissonance.

Perhaps it's lip-service?

s.

"It is true that the act of self-negation is essentially self-contradictory since the self does not wish to be negated and is always seeking recognition, aggrandizement and expansion. But in the context of religion such a self must be put to death at least once, for if the “profane” does not die, it is not possible for it to gain the assistance of the “sacred” and be reborn."

- Musashi Tachikawa.

[wil]

Namaste all,

The classic line, no one lies on their death bed saying they wish they spent more time at work.

Believe me, I won't have those issues. At the same time though, I have no concern about reaping all the rewards of my efforts, my goals and work in the selfish regard pertain to me reaping rewards, satisfaction now, and future generations gathering them later. I believe it was Ben Franklin who set an amount aside and said it wasn't to be touched for 100 years, and then had criteria as to how it would be used. He knowing the power of compounding interest knew he was creating something that he would never reap the benefits of but future generations would.

I've contemplated the aspect of living a more focused non material life, and intend to do so on some scale. But the current results of my meditations on the subject indicate that I am put in 3D to experience 3D and all it encompasses. I am feeling all is in divine order and I am making proper preparations for the next plane of existence.