Selfishness and Society

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

So you are saying it's not an issue in the US? I was under the impression that you were suggesting that US institutions have been perpetuating themselves on the pretext of saving America from a "mob mentality."

You must have posted while I was editting my post to add a US story. {It's funny how that has happened a few times here already. }

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

“Allowing sale of pornography on military bases has harmed military men and women by escalating the number of violent, sexual crimes, feeding a base addiction, eroding the family as the primary building block of society, and denigrating the moral standing of our troops both here and abroad,” Broun said

I fail to see how this relates to the subject at hand. Maybe there is a linguistic problem.

In the US, the term "mob" is has traditionally been used in reference to organized crime or racketeering and to transient social phenemona seeking to advance a social or political goal, including action take by self-styled authorities who are prepared to usurp traditional institutions and/or bypass due process of law (e.g., lynch mobs).

Who are the persons personifying "mob mentality" in the US and how are the church, the government, and the education system saving Americans from these persons?

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

I fail to see how this relates to the subject at hand. Maybe there is a linguistic problem.

In the US, the term "mob" is has traditionally been used in reference to organized crime or racketeering and to transient social phenemona seeking to advance a social or political goal, including action take by self-styled authorities who seek to usurp traditional institutions and/or bypass due process of law (e.g., lynch mobs).

Who are the persons personifying "mob mentality" in the US and how are the church, the government, and the education system savig us from them?

The phrase is also flung around as a scare tactic along with the word 'anarchy' to try to justify strong control mechanisms on the people, but not on the government. (Notice how when a government prohibits something, a black market will spring up to fill the niche? This black market is then dubbed 'organized crime,' aka "The Mob." It becomes a self-feeding mechanism for authorities to further tighten control over the citizens, which leads to more black markets, etc., in an escalating cycle.)

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

The phrase is also flung around as a scare tactic along with the word 'anarchy' to try to justify strong control mechanisms on the people, but not on the government. (Notice how when a government prohibits something, a black market will spring up to fill the niche? This black market is then dubbed 'organized crime,' aka "The Mob." It becomes a self-feeding mechanism for authorities to further tighten control over the citizens, which leads to more black markets, etc., in an escalating cycle.)

I'm with you now. I think you're referring to the government's "War on Drugs" in the above example, which may have been responsible for the expansion of criminal black markets.

I realize we're all in a great rush much of the time and don't always include examples that would help clarify a major conclusion. Gotta go.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

I'm with you now. I think you're referring to the government's "War on Drugs" in the above example, which may have been responsible for the expansion of criminal black markets.

I realize we're all in a great rush much of the time and don't always include examples that would help clarify a major conclusion. Gotta go.

Yes. The "War on Drugs," the "War on Pornography," "Zero Tolerance," and all that rot.

[Pathless]

I'm making a conscious effort not to get too involved in these discussions right now, but I just can't help myself. Back to the ol' tit-for-tat for a bit.

Originally Posted by juantoo3

You know, perhaps America got itself into a bit of a fix, but our infrastructure is built on internal cumbustion and variations of the automobile and freight trains. America is far too large for any practical mass transit outside of the larger metropolitan areas.

Yes. That is a very big problem. The infrastructure of the nation is completely unmanageable at this point.

Originally Posted by Juan

Be that as it may, our government decided recently that it would be wise to begin investing into some form of alternative fuel to power those vehicles. Biofuel, made from maize/corn and other organic resources, resources grown here in America. Which means that corn normally used for food stuffs is being diverted to the fuel process. Up goes the price of American food.

Well, food prices and scarcity are up everywhere, and biofuel probably does have a lot to do with it. I don't think that the only biofuel being made is within the borders of the United States, though. And it may have been obvious also in the late '70s that the oil market was heading for a big crunch and crash. We've had some time to look into alternatives. I say we, but what I should be saying is those in power. Those in power include government and corporations from what I can tell, but maybe there are other categories/groups we can assign some responsibility to as well. Certainly the media does a lot to shape individual perceptions.

Originally Posted by juantoo

At the same time, oil supplies are extremely volitile, a big part of the reason for giving biofuel a try. Yes, I am aware of the part America's exploits in Iraq are doing to contribute to this volitility, but there are other world economic factors that play into it as well.

Yes, a big one being the draining of oil reserves--oil depletion.

Originally Posted by juantoo

As a result, Americans have higher fuel prices. Add in the mortgage meltdown from liberal financing policies, and the typical American family is being really put upon at this moment in time financially.

Americans are not the only ones suffering right now. Like Tao has said, many many millions the world over have been suffering for a long time. I would be lying to myself and to you if I agreed or asserted that such suffering is unrelated to corporate or U.S. governmental policies, or even the way that the average American consumes.

Originally Posted by juantoo

So, who is bitchin' about the rise in food prices, and the diversion of grain from the food stocks? It is those we *give* the stuff too, because now we're in a bind ourselves and don't have it to send, they are bitchin' that we aren't sending enough. There are nations with their hands out blaming us because we don't *give* them what they want.

Piss on 'em. Let 'em grow their own. If they could.

It's not enough that I can't hold on to enough of my own earned money to keep my own head above water, I have to contribute to some inconsiderate and ungrateful pissant who *won't* grow his own food? Not can't, won't. And has the audacity to get pissed at me because I won't give to him, when I'm teetering on the edge of bankruptcy my own damn self? And some bleeding heart who isn't standing in my shoes is gonna tell me I've got a bad attitude, that I have "swallowed the hype?"

Juan, I'm sorry. You've just defined Ugly American with these last three paragraphs. I don't think that I can adequately address how much I disagree with your sentiments and reasoning without really saying some nasty stuff. So I'm just going to skip this for now.

Originally Posted by juantoo

OK, sure, there needs to be a paradigm shift in how the world operates. Let's give the bleeding hearts what they want for a moment, just imagine. Take away all of the polluting industries and industries that use any non-renewable resources.

You just killed the planet.

Well, no, not exactly. Yes, a large percentage of the human population would die off from exposure and neglect and starvation if all the industry and infrastructure suddenly crumbled. If we can soften the transition from industry and surplus-oriented production to subsistence, then the human family will fare better.

Yet it's not an absence of human life that will kill the planet. Industry and waste and ego-bound living are killing the planet. Consumerism and rugged individualism, the me-against-the-world self-centeredness personified by some aspects of American culture are what's killing the planet.

Like I told cyberpi, you can disagree with that if you like, but you are not going to convince me otherwise.

Originally Posted by juantoo

But juan, you're talking out your nether regions! No, I am not. Take away the industry, you take away the paycheck, you take away the means to provide for and maintain the family unit. *If* you could find some way to replace industry with some idealistic but fantasy business that would be fine, but in order to get the things a person wants and / or needs *they must by definition* impact their environment.

Two bolded things here:

family unit: perhaps we can widen our circle of compassion, trust, and cooperation to include larger groups than just our own families? That would be helpful in surviving, getting along with each other, and would make life more enjoyable, I think.

must impact the environment: yes, this is similar to what cyberpi has said. Yet there are differences of scale. There is a huge difference between being aware of what the land can provide, then producing and consuming less than that threshold, and finding and converting every resource on the planet into a product to be sold, then dumping the leftover scraps from production.

As for paying with chickens, I think that sounds like a good idea.

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Why don't these "poor, hungry" people feed themselves? Why don't they plant a garden, or glean a field, or harvest a forest? Or fish, or hunt, or otherwise develop and exploit their environment like our forebears have done for countless generations? Why all of the sudden, in the last few generations, are they dependent on my tax dollars to sustain them?

Very briefly: likely because the land has been sold to corporations and already harvested for resources in a very short-sighted way. Of course, the same story applies within the United States, too.

[wil]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Yes. The "War on Drugs," the "War on Pornography," "Zero Tolerance," and all that rot.

hmmm in my belief system we have a saying "What we resist persists" Similar to let go and let G!d. Now we know the gov'ts active resistance in these matters has created a backlash....how about ours? Our resistence?

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by wil

hmmm in my belief system we have a saying "What we resist persists" Similar to let go and let G!d. Now we know the gov'ts active resistance in these matters has created a backlash....how about ours? Our resistence?

Are you trying to say, "Resistance is futile," wil?

[wil]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Are you trying to say, "Resistance is futile," wil?

Often.

You get more flys with honey.

Seek first to understand, then to be understood.

Love your enemies.

I think working with people to find common ground is easier and more productive than putting them in a corner. As a matter of fact I find it amazing that folks think that when they insult, degrade, and attack folks that they become surprised when the other party comes back swinging.

ie if one makes a living as a logger calling him a murderer or rapist is a funny way to start a discussion on the topic of the environment.

as doesn't calling someone a namby pampy tree huggin hippie assist in the cause.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by wil

Often.

You get more flys with honey.

Seek first to understand, then to be understood.

Love your enemies.

I think working with people to find common ground is easier and more productive than putting them in a corner. As a matter of fact I find it amazing that folks think that when they insult, degrade, and attack folks that they become surprised when the other party comes back swinging.

ie if one makes a living as a logger calling him a murderer or rapist is a funny way to start a discussion on the topic of the environment.

as doesn't calling someone a namby pampy tree huggin hippie assist in the cause.

I think we might have different ideas about resistance, wil. Think about the role of resistance in a lever, and what you can accomplish with a lever. Another way you can look at resistance is in conjunction with electricity, where a resister transforms electrical energy into another form of energy.

[wil]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

I think we might have different ideas about resistance, wil. Think about the role of resistance in a lever, and what you can accomplish with a lever. Another way you can look at resistance is in conjunction with electricity, where a resister transforms electrical energy into another form of energy.

I was referring to your post.

Originally Posted by SL

Yes. The "War on Drugs," the "War on Pornography," "Zero Tolerance," and all that rot.

Where I was agreeing that since the creation, implementation, and/or expansion of such 'resistence' efforts the problem they were to solve has increased.

ie when you focus on the problem, you uh...er...focus on the problem...the universe gladly validates your reasoning.

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by wil

"What we resist persists"

That may be true sometimes. But on the other hand, what we don't resist also persists.

[Tao_Equus]

There is also that old phrase "The guilty protest the loudest". Mostly, from what i can see over here, it is Republicans like Bush and Reagen that shouted loudest about the enemies of drugs, terrorism/communism. Yet the Bush administration was riddled with those exposed as funding terrorists by importing cocaine into the US during the Reagen administration. and lovely to see heroin production in Afghanistan is now breaking all records. But the Bush dynasty has a century old involvement in that particular trade, no surprise they'd get it back on track after the Taliban had the affront to stop growing the opium. Funny old world aint it.

tao

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

There is also that old phrase "The guilty protest the loudest". Funny old world aint it.

Yep. Same old finger pointing at ugly Americans by soapbox standers, and still nothing in the way of practical, realistic solutions to be offered. Demolition, but no construction.