Selfishness and Society

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Paladin

STARTREK.COM : Biography











i tried really really hard not to post this but my head started to hurt and the voices wouldn't leave me alone untill i did... sooooo.... okay

lol, beam me up..

[Tao_Equus]

Juantoo,

Uncharacteristically bitter posts from you!!

All the Scots in my list were born here and I think the majority of them never went to America. But thats beside the point. Every nation has its share of clever people.

What does bother me is this externalising of blame to those the US has for decades exploited to maintain a subsidised and profligate way of life. The world is changing and the US is losing its mighty grip on global natural resources and is beginning to have to pay the same price for things as everybody else. Agricultural policies and treaties like GATT, and economic strategies imposed by the US via the World Bank have since the 1950's been propping up dictators and making them grow our luxury goods whilst their own peoples are forced off land and allowed to scrape a living off the most marginal land. So when famine does strike they have no surplus stored to ride through it. And emergency food aid aside American 'pledges' of long term aid are about the most unreliable of any nation. The official statistics of US aid that the politicians feed you to give you the impression the US is a wonderful donor are lies. The vast majority of these figures are lost in the salaries of US staff. US aid, like US war, is just another way for your nepotic bureaucrats to fleece your tax dollars.

I am sorry if you are finding the changes in the internal American economy difficult. But welcome to the real world. Your fuel prices are now only half what they are here, 5 years ago our fuel cost 4 times what you paid. And as for the 'credit crunch' well there we see the super rich exploiting us all. Under the Bush presidency we have seen a free for all attack on the poorest segments of society while the richest have seen their wealth increase exponentially. Business for the private banks of the mega rich is booming. But your media and mine, (owned by who?), turn the blame on everyone and everything to divert from the facts. There has been a wholesale theft of that little bit of cream the rich used to leave the rest of us. And Bush there and Brown here in answer to this crisis for joe average throw ever greater quantities of our taxes at their banker friends. Its the biggest scam we will ever witness. You cannot buy a Caribbean Island at the moment, as soon as hey are put on the market they are snapped up. Same with works of art and everything else the mega rich invest in. Prices are through the roof yet the stores are rationing rice to us plebs.

That is the truth. These people you say should grow their own food cannot afford the patented seed American trade agreements stipulate are the only ones allowed to be sold. or what food is grown, in Mexico for example, is being bought up by the biofuel industry. I never thought I'd see you blame the little man Juan. I thought you knew better than that.

Tao

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Netti-Netti, I apologize for "speaking in riddles" here, but I think the following song lyrics expresses the struggle for power I'm trying to describe quite well:

UNDEROATH - WRAPPED AROUND YOUR FINGER LYRICS

Think about it in the context of Sun Tzu's The Art of War.

Thank you, SG.

The connection between ideology and power is often assumed to be direct. This is an unconscious dogma and a potentially very misleading one at that because it's easy to imagine ideological conflict without any power relations emanating from them. A typical debate concerned with ideological differences, for example, has no real consequences as far as a use of power or the balance of power.

Moreover, ideological conflicts may arise principally because they are manufactured in order to promote or maintain certain power relations by providing "rational" justification. Consider George Bush's grandstanding: "We’ve entered a great ideological conflict." Articulated in February of 2006, long after the invasion of Iraq, this position was clearly post facto, as have been the various grandiose reformulations the administration has offered over time in its public relations spiel about the need to invade Iraq. I think it would be fair to say that all of these new rationales have had the same primitive ex post facto quality.

It seems those who are really serious about this business of ruthless and exclusivistic self-interest are actually rather poor propagandists. I would go so far as to suggest that they don't really value ideology at all and are far more concerned with infiltrating the government at every level and creating the social ills that can used to set the stage for their power grabs. Bringing the economy to its knees may appear as one avenue for trying to accomplish this.

To get back to the subject at hand.Your previous post (Post #92 of this thread) dealt with ideology. Specifically, you were referring to "mob mentality." It would appear that you have now changed the subject to power.

I have no objection to your "speaking in riddles" per se. The rhetorical use of riddles may in fact be appropriate in a given context of discourse, as in this case:



Best with a little curry.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Thank you, SG.

The connection between ideology and power is often assumed to be direct. This is an unconscious dogma and a potentially very misleading one at that because it's easy to imagine ideological conflict without any power relations emanating from them. A typical debate concerned with ideological differences, for example, has no real consequences as far as a use of power or the balance of power.

Um, Netti-Netti, did you notice that my response was to a question regarding institutions of power? I'll repost it again here for you:

Originally Posted by seattlegal

So they can void the notion of individual rights and conscience, and that we must surrender our power as individuals to them. (All under the fear of 'mob mentality,' of course.)

<snip>

To get back to the subject at hand.Your previous post (Post #92 of this thread) dealt with ideology. Specifically, you were referring to "mob mentality." It would appear that you have now changed the subject to power.

Sorry, but it seems that you have missed the direct connection with institutions of power, so who is guilty of changing the subject here?

I have no objection to your "speaking in riddles" per se. The rhetorical use of riddles may in fact be appropriate in a given context of discourse, as in this case:

Good. I've gotten a few complaints about it.

Best with a little curry.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Best with a little curry.

{Forgot to add this, since you are fairly new here:}

I prefer to use live fish for my ammunition!

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Um, Netti-Netti, did you notice that my response was to a question regarding institutions of power? I'll repost it again here for you:

Thank you, SG. We all know that institutions can be self-serving. The question you seem to have raised is whether this is going on under a false pretext. I'd ask you for a reference or some actual examples of how the church, the government, and the education system have perpetuated themselves on the pretext of saving us all from "mob mentality." However, I think it may be a moot point.

Complete anarchy is not a viable alternative to the existence of political government and social institutions. In a way, it's a fruitless academic exercise to argue that institutions should be destroyed because they are characterized by abuses of power and/or no longer serve individual rights as they should. If you and a group of fellow Libertarians were to get rid of all government and all institutions, you would soon thereafter assume positions of power yourselves or you would defer to whoever came along who is prepared to meet the market demand for government and institutions. People want these things. They just want them in a purer form.

I've gotten a few complaints about "speaking in riddles".

Imagine that.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

{Forgot to add this, since you are fairly new here:}
I prefer to use live fish for my ammunition!

Ouch, you're hurting me!!

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Thank you, SG. We all know that institutions can be self-serving. The question you seem to have raised is whether this is going on under a false pretext. I'd ask you for a reference or some actual examples of how the church, the government, and the education system have perpetuated themselves on the pretext of saving us all from "mob mentality." However, I think it may be a moot point.

Complete anarchy is not a viable alternative to the existence of political government and social institutions. In a way, it's a fruitless academic exercise to argue that institutions should be destroyed because they are characterized by abuses of power and/or no longer serve individual rights as they should. If you and a group of fellow Libertarians were to get rid of all government and all institutions, you would soon thereafter assume positions of power yourselves or you would defer to whoever came along who is prepared to meet the market demand for government and institutions. People want these things. They just want them in a purer form.

Still changing the subject, I see.

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Ouch, you're hurting me!!

What results did you expect to reap from baiting? (Especially baiting me with fish?)

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Uncharacteristically bitter posts from you!!

Indeed, hence one reason I tend to avoid this board. I really thought better of you Tao, than to step in line with the soapbox crowd. Wonders never cease.

Since America is the cause of every evil in the world, and every American is the incarnate of the Devil himself, I suppose I am just pissin' in the wind here. Better for America to be obliterated, diappear completely, and leave the precious world to their own devices.

I wonder how long it will take for the rest to self-implode? I would bet not very long at all, but then I wouldn't be around to collect on my bet, would I?

The Europeans already had their chance, what did it bring? Two world wars and a laundry list of wars of colonial expansion, and some real doosies like the colonial slave trade and the Balfour declaration. But nothing to compare with the nasty Americans...

Yes, the world would be so very much better under the unmitigated auspices of the Chinese, or East Indians, or Russians. Welcome to it.

Bitter? Me? What makes you say that? I'm just the Devil incarnate, what do I know?

BTW, regarding the cost of petrol in the UK, if ya'll are dumb enough to impose three times the cost of the fuel on top as a tax surcharge, that's your own national stupidity. You get what you elect.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

The Europeans already had their chance

What is this, a game, now it's your turn?

Yes, the world would be so very much better under the unmitigated auspices of the Chinese, or East Indians, or Russians.

It's a crazy notion perhaps, but I think a lot of people don't want to be a part of anyone's empire; currently an American one; but can I upfront say no thanks to a Chinese, East Indian or Russian empire. I wouldn't describe myself as patriotic I just don't like any way of life rammed down my throat.

Perhaps juan isn't responsible for everything that has ever been done in the name of America. Perhaps Tao isn't responsible for everything that has ever been done in the name of Scotland/UK/Europe?

s.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Indeed, hence one reason I tend to avoid this board. I really thought better of you Tao, than to step in line with the soapbox crowd. Wonders never cease.

Since America is the cause of every evil in the world, and every American is the incarnate of the Devil himself, I suppose I am just pissin' in the wind here. Better for America to be obliterated, diappear completely, and leave the precious world to their own devices.

I wonder how long it will take for the rest to self-implode? I would bet not very long at all, but then I wouldn't be around to collect on my bet, would I?

The Europeans already had their chance, what did it bring? Two world wars and a laundry list of wars of colonial expansion, and some real doosies like the colonial slave trade and the Balfour declaration. But nothing to compare with the nasty Americans...

Yes, the world would be so very much better under the unmitigated auspices of the Chinese, or East Indians, or Russians. Welcome to it.

Bitter? Me? What makes you say that? I'm just the Devil incarnate, what do I know?

BTW, regarding the cost of petrol in the UK, if ya'll are dumb enough to impose three times the cost of the fuel on top as a tax surcharge, that's your own national stupidity. You get what you elect.

Juantoo,

I thought you knew me better than to think when I say the US I mean every last man woman and child. The problem is Juan that we can elect all the puppets we want but we never get the chance to elect the big business leaders that really run the show. American led international business has systematically raped the planet for decades. If you find that fact anti-American then I'm sorry, I dont like it either. The US has had its chance to be a pillar of Justice for the world to aspire to and blown it. Now when we criticise Russia or China they turn round and publicly call America hypocrites and have no problem in issuing a list of US atrocities to back it up. But I see enough American TV to see what you are still being fed. God and bloody country flag waving moronic, mindless swill. If you aint a sugar coated patriot with a flag up his ass with god on his every sentence then your a commy satanist. And for the record as a Scot and a European and most importantly of all, as a Global Citizen I am disgusted to the root of my being with the UK's Labour party taking the choice to get on its knees before Bush and blow him all the way to Iraq. But thats my point Juantoo, we are little people, the players dont give a flying hoot what we think, say or do. Power is now virtually absolute. So for you to get pissed at me for what you think is an attack on you is just nuts. I know you have no more say over what "America" does than I do. So I dont know whats making you mad at my words but my gut feeling is it is not the words themselves, maybe its just the pain of realisation hitting you and a denial reaction? I dont know. But get real Juantoo. The truth is there if you want to look.

Tao

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

Still changing the subject, I see.

Greetings, SG.

Let's get back on track, shall we? I'd like an example of how the church, the government, and the education system have perpetuated themselves on the pretext of saving us all from "mob mentality." A public position statement articulating this concept would be especially helpful.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Greetings, SG.

Let's get back on track, shall we? I'd like an example of how the church, the government, and the education system have perpetuated themselves on the pretext of saving us all from "mob mentality." A public position statement articulating this concept would be especially helpful.

How about how all 3 institutions publicly blame artists like Marlyn Manson or Jello Biafra for a range of social changes including sexuality, satanism and even school shootings. The state supported "Moral Majority" group of religious extremists who trample over the fundamental right of free expression and deprive artists of their liberty.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Greetings, SG.

Let's get back on track, shall we? I'd like an example of how the church, the government, and the education system have perpetuated themselves on the pretext of saving us all from "mob mentality." A public position statement articulating this concept would be especially helpful.

You mean you have been missing all the complaints about the "lynch mob mentality" of the press, and the calls to censor such things as the Danish cartoons? How about the Chinese government kicking journalists out of Tibet? How about the media crackdown during the Burma protests?

Here's one story about the Chinese government censoring the internet:

THE GREAT FIREWALL

Here's another about censorship around the world:

Government Censorship of New Media Content Impacts the World -- NMI Releases Paper on the Effect of Government Sanctioned New Media Censorship Beyond Borders

Here's a beauty:
Bill: Stop selling Playboy, Penthouse on base - Army News, opinions, editorials, news from Iraq, photos, reports - Army Times

Concerned that the military is selling pornography in exchange stores in spite of a ban, one lawmaker has introduced a bill to clean up the matter.

“Our troops should not see their honor sullied so that the moguls behind magazines like Playboy and Penthouse can profit,” said Rep. Paul Broun, R-Ga., unveiling his House bill April 16.

His Military Honor and Decency Act would amend a provision of the 1997 Defense Authorization Act that banned sales of “sexually explicit material” on military bases.

The new language would “close existing loopholes” in regulations to bring the military “into compliance with the intent of the 1997 law,” Broun said.

“Allowing sale of pornography on military bases has harmed military men and women by escalating the number of violent, sexual crimes, feeding a base addiction, eroding the family as the primary building block of society, and denigrating the moral standing of our troops both here and abroad,” Broun said.
continued at link

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by seattlegal

You mean you have been missing all the complaints about the "lynch mob mentality" of the press, and the calls to censor such things as the Danish cartoons? How about the Chinese government kicking journalists out of Tibet? How about the media crackdown during the Burma protests?

Here's one story about the Chinese government censoring the internet:

THE GREAT FIREWALL

Here's another about censorship around the world:

Government Censorship of New Media Content Impacts the World -- NMI Releases Paper on the Effect of Government Sanctioned New Media Censorship Beyond Borders

So you are saying it's not an issue in the US? I was under the impression that you were suggesting that US institutions have been perpetuating themselves on the pretext of saving America from a "mob mentality."