Selfishness and Society

[greymare]

but still useful . wouldnt you say old snoopdog??

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Your analogy appears very selfish to me. You are really worrying about an immigrant coming to the USA today. Oh no! Another immigrant here to take our land... another immigrant here to take our jobs. You are really worrying about how many children a neighbor has. Oh no! Another mouth to feed in the welfare line, and more competition for employment... etc.

Simply, no. That is not what I am "really worrying about." And thanks, Tao.

Originally Posted by cyberpi

If there is an agreement that my home is mine to work with then yes it would be wrong and selfish to break the agreement and to break in without notifying me. However if someone comes to my door begging or stealing then I would be rather selfish to just turn them away... wouldn't I?

Read a bit of history about the interactions between Indians and Europeans. In all of the interactions I can think of, the Indians welcomed the Europeans, gave them gifts, helped them navigate the land, and helped them survive. The Europeans were the agressors, not the Indians.

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Or should I just turn the selfish criminals away as you might advise? Call the police and lock em up, right?

Well, in hindsight, the Indians would have done well to kill Europeans on sight or let them starve to death, but they did not do that.

As for the police, they've always made me nervous.

Originally Posted by cyberpi

The US government... the IRS... comes to me as either a thief or a beggar. The US government takes what is not theirs. What shall I do? I assure you that a healthy rebuke is in there somewhere. Shall I call in my friends to help lock the tax collector up? How do you advise that I contend with government's selfishness? The government is a closer fit to your analogy.

Indeed. The government is a collection of thieves and other assorted criminals. No argument from me there. Give the IRS a kick in the ass for me, too! I loathe filling out those stupid forms. Doing the ridiculous math and cross-referencing and line-jumping that they require of us every year is, to my mind, one of the most heinous abuses of my intellect and time that I can imagine. I would never voluntarily enter into such an exercise in pettiness. Fu<l< the IRS.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Simply, no. That is not what I am "really worrying about." And thanks, Tao.

Then neither should the Native American Indians. The land was never entirely theirs in the same way that the land today is not entirely yours.

Originally Posted by Pathless

Read a bit of history about the interactions between Indians and Europeans. In all of the interactions I can think of, the Indians welcomed the Europeans, gave them gifts, helped them navigate the land, and helped them survive. The Europeans were the agressors, not the Indians.

Again, I submit that selfishness is an individual (self) trait. To say that one tribe is more selfish than the other is a generalization that bears little resemblance to the word. Some natives are selfish and others are not. Some immigrants are selfish and others are not. Just because one person is native and the other is an immigrant does not make the one more selfish than the other.

Originally Posted by Pathless

Well, in hindsight, the Indians would have done well to kill Europeans on sight or let them starve to death, but they did not do that.

Some did. Would an individual be considered selfish or non-selfish if they did?

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Then neither should the Native American Indians. The land was never entirely theirs in the same way that the land today is not entirely yours.

Again, I submit that selfishness is an individual (self) trait. To say that one tribe is more selfish than the other is a generalization that bears little resemblance to the word. Some natives are selfish and others are not. Some immigrants are selfish and others are not. Just because one person is native and the other is an immigrant does not make the one more selfish than the other.

Some did. Would an individual be considered selfish or non-selfish if they did?

... ... what? do you just like to disagree for the sake of disagreement, or what?

I'm done tit-for-tatting with you. My stance is clear.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by wil

I'm a Cock -

At least you admit it.

Chris

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

You think immigrants coming to America 300+ years ago were more like thieves breaking into the Native American's home to take their land... than the immigrants who come to America today to take a piece of American land? I am comparing immigrants with immigrants, and thieves with thieves. I am speaking against the analogy that cross compares and calls an immigrant a thief.

So you think an immigrant cannot be a thief? As Pathless pointed out on the whole the Native population of North America were overwhelmingly a welcoming bunch. Indeed many of the first settlers would have not survived their first winters without the selfless charity of the Indians. But as more arrived, lured by the promise of land that was described as empty, they trampled over the hospitality and destroyed the lifestyle and livelihood of the native population. Modern immigrants bear no resemblance to the influx of Europeans that colonised North America, and so your analogy is very poor. Most modern immigrants do the jobs you would not deign to do, work for a pittance and are treated badly, without any of the standard rights that you enjoy. On top of that they are demonised and subject to a campaign of hate from all echelons of American society. I can just find no reasonable way to compare modern and historical immigration.
Those that made a business out of colonising North America were thieves. They used every device at their disposal to disenfranchise the Native population. I see no modern group of immigrants attempting such actions.

Tao

[wil]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Those that made a business out of colonising North America were thieves. They used every device at their disposal to disenfranchise the Native population. I see no modern group of immigrants attempting such actions.

[cyberpi]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

So you think an immigrant cannot be a thief?

No. I said that both an immigrant and a native can equally be a thief. Both can equally be selfish.

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

On top of that they are demonised and subject to a campaign of hate from all echelons of American society. I can just find no reasonable way to compare modern and historical immigration.

Surely the Native Americans did not demonise the white folk coming to live on 'their' land, right? Luckily we have yourself and Pathless here to help with that.

Originally Posted by Pathless

... ... what? do you just like to disagree for the sake of disagreement, or what?

I like to agree when I agree and to disagree when I disagree.

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by greymare

but still useful . wouldnt you say old snoopdog??

dunno. not up on what they do in life. do tell.

still ugly critters though.

young snoopPup.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by cyberpi

Surely the Native Americans did not demonise the white folk coming to live on 'their' land, right? Luckily we have yourself and Pathless here to help with that.
.

I have little doubt that fairly quickly there was no need for any demonisation amongst the Indian tribes, white man was doing a magnificent job of demon without any help. But do I 'blame' these immigrants, hundreds of thousands of which were the poorest Scots thrown off their ancestral lands by the gentry? No, most had a one way ticket. Survive or die was their only option. Unfortunately your great nation is built on little else but great injustices to all concerned. Today your leaders continue by exporting the rape and theft of natural resources to wherever it thinks it can get away with it. Stealing trillions from around the world but cant feed or doctor your own war veterans. Big time selfishness is in the hands of a few, always has been and I fear always will be. Us little people can debate all we want. They dont care.

Tao

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

But do I 'blame' these immigrants, hundreds of thousands of which were the poorest Scots thrown off their ancestral lands by the gentry? No, most had a one way ticket. Survive or die was their only option. Unfortunately your great nation is built on little else but great injustices to all concerned.

Perhaps I'm a little late to the party. Perhaps I've missed a great deal...I only read the last two pages, and I skimmed those at that. But this comment seems a little incomplete.

Afterall, the British Empire surely was in no way responsible for any injustices anywhere else in the world now, were they? And France never caused injustice for any others, either. And Spain didn't cause any injustice anywhere. Nor Belgium. Nor Holland. Nor Portuagal. Nor China. Nor Mongolia. Nor Rwanda. Nor Zimbabwe. Nor South Africa. Nor Angola. Nor Sudan. Nor Columbia. Nor Guatemala. No, no other nation in the world is responsible for any injustices to any other nations or for ostracizing peoples within their own borders, are they?

Ahem, thank G-d the U.S. was there to take in those "poorest Scots thrown off their ancestral lands," or they would probably still be treading water in the middle of the Atlantic somewhere, huh? Methinks one doth protest too much, to try to take the role of "poor Scot" and then bite the hand that has fed so very many poor Scots, and poor Irish, and poor Brits, and not a few other poor as well. I should know, I'm descended from a few poor Irish and poor Brits. The British Isles didn't want my forebears, America did. Who do you think I'm gonna stand up for?

Those damnable yankees saved the British ass a couple of times in World Wars, but let's not talk about that injustice. The US sends more food aid to more of the world than any other nation (at US taxpayer expense!), period, but let's not talk about that injustice either.

How many people have the Scots landed on the moon? Or sent into space for that matter? How many Scots *invented* airplanes? How many Scots invented telephones?

Indeed, Scotland is a great nation, performing no injustice to any other in the world. Why just look at the wonderful contributions to the world Scotland has given us: kilts, bagpipes, the Loch Ness Monster, blue body paint and haggis. I just can't live without my haggis.

I realize one may get a little emotional when it comes to social injustice and the plight of the world. But a simple look around and a rational head while doing so will show that there is a lot of good being done as well, by that same "great nation...built on little else but great injustices." A lot more good than the Scots sitting on their ass and pointing fingers and complaining about the guys actually doing something. Doing something even if its wrong, but at least they are doing something. I'd rather ask forgiveness than seek permission. If that happens to be called "selfish" then so be it. Sure as hell beats the alternative.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Perhaps I'm a little late to the party. Perhaps I've missed a great deal...I only read the last two pages, and I skimmed those at that. But this comment seems a little incomplete.

Afterall, the British Empire surely was in no way responsible for any injustices anywhere else in the world now, were they? And France never caused injustice for any others, either. And Spain didn't cause any injustice anywhere. Nor Belgium. Nor Holland. Nor Portuagal. Nor China. Nor Mongolia. Nor Rwanda. Nor Zimbabwe. Nor South Africa. Nor Angola. Nor Sudan. Nor Columbia. Nor Guatemala. No, no other nation in the world is responsible for any injustices to any other nations or for ostracizing peoples within their own borders, are they?

Ahem, thank G-d the U.S. was there to take in those "poorest Scots thrown off their ancestral lands," or they would probably still be treading water in the middle of the Atlantic somewhere, huh? Methinks one doth protest too much, to try to take the role of "poor Scot" and then bite the hand that has fed so very many poor Scots, and poor Irish, and poor Brits, and not a few other poor as well. I should know, I'm descended from a few poor Irish and poor Brits. The British Isles didn't want my forebears, America did. Who do you think I'm gonna stand up for?

Those damnable yankees saved the British ass a couple of times in World Wars, but let's not talk about that injustice. The US sends more food aid to more of the world than any other nation (at US taxpayer expense!), period, but let's not talk about that injustice either.

How many people have the Scots landed on the moon? Or sent into space for that matter? How many Scots *invented* airplanes? How many Scots invented telephones?

Indeed, Scotland is a great nation, performing no injustice to any other in the world. Why just look at the wonderful contributions to the world Scotland has given us: kilts, bagpipes, the Loch Ness Monster, blue body paint and haggis. I just can't live without my haggis.

I realize one may get a little emotional when it comes to social injustice and the plight of the world. But a simple look around and a rational head while doing so will show that there is a lot of good being done as well, by that same "great nation...built on little else but great injustices." A lot more good than the Scots sitting on their ass and pointing fingers and complaining about the guys actually doing something. Doing something even if its wrong, but at least they are doing something. I'd rather ask forgiveness than seek permission. If that happens to be called "selfish" then so be it. Sure as hell beats the alternative.

Juantoo,

At the forefront, the sharp end, of all British Empire invasions were the Scots regiments. But if you look at it cynically the military was the only choice for young men growing up here, in fact you can quantify Scotland as the Empire Farm of Soldiery. This continues to this day. The mainstay of British infantry regiments is still drawn from Scotland, and the majority of them from all the depressed little towns where there is, as well as long tradition, simply no alternatives.
Sir Alexander Graham Bell, inventor of the telephone, was indeed a scot. As was Logie Baird, inventor of the television, and Alan Campbell-Swinton invented the cathode ray tube. And the first suggestion for the telegraph too appeared in a Scots magazine in 1753, though it would have to wait 47 years for the invention of the battery to be realised. Where would the space program be without tubular steel or tarmacadam? Both given to us all by scots. How many lives has penicillin or quinine saved?, thanks again to scots. The founding father of Sociology, Adam Ferguson, a Scot. Another Ferguson, patrick, gave the world the breech loading rifle. Or the founder of modern economics, Adam Smith, founder of the US Navy, John Paul Jones, Paleobiology, William Nicol, Refrigeration, James Harrison, Radar, Sir Robin Watson-Watt, Paraffin, James Young, Logarithms, John Napier, Kelvin Scale, Lord Kelvin, Iron bridges, Lord Telford, Hypodermic syringes, golf, geosciences, cloning, fax machines, the decimal point, cure for scurvy, pneumatic tyres, colloid chemistry, brownian movement, bakelite, the bank of England, antisepsis, anasthetics and of course whisky....and more, all came from Scots. Where would America be without all of those? The Universities of St Andrews and Edinburgh have for centuries been regarded as among the finest seats of learning and innovation in the world. Long before Harvard or Princetown were ever conceived. So dont diss the scots!!

As for the US food aid you speak of, I know this.... I also know it usually is required a few years after they supply weapons to dictators. Very few humanitarian disasters have been unavoidable. And time after time US food aid has been used for political ends too. I hear often from Americans about this lie they are fed by their leaders, of their charity and giving. And as i state here again according to New Internationalist based on UN figures the net flow of wealth is to the US on a ratio of 8:1. So you can swallow the hype, still dont make it true.

Tao

[greymare]

yeah, ok Tao, you scots might have been the brainy ones, but you dont have a crocodile dundee or steve irwin, now do you???

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by greymare

yeah, ok Tao, you scots might have been the brainy ones, but you dont have a crocodile dundee or steve irwin, now do you???

Dundee and Irwin... lol...both Scots names

[greymare]

oh crap