Selfishness

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Maybe because the term in the Bible is, "saint"?...

Yes, exactly! And so, of the 1000+ perfect saints, I can't say I've met nearly enough ... but then, the closer we get, the more likely it is that we'll run into them! Or at least, thus have I heard ...

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Just practice what you preach, Juantoo3, no more, no less. That's what I'm doing ... how about a little capitulatation? Asking too much? Ah well, I'll do your share. I do owe a few folks, a few favors ...

Indeed. I suggest you may not be "doing" as much or as well as you lead yourself to believe. Nor do you seem to be willing to accept my hospitable accommodation. Perhaps it is I who should continue to do your share?

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Your words, your belief?

You are quite evidently an avid reader. I recommend looking up John Mills' philosophy called "utilitarianism." Keep in mind, it was the very same reasoning used by Truman in deciding to drop the A-bomb on Japan. The greatest good for the most people...at the expense of a few people deemed unworthy. In this particular case it was what? something like 200,000 dead from Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Think about it (as I am certain you are quite able), it is the natural conclusion of your statement when that statement is not tempered with consideration for the minority.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Aha, toot the horn of self, and that's perfectly fine - but you see, I AM only interested in the "internal Joshua."

We may disagree, but my job is to call all men, BROTHER.

And yeah, that's AFTER you spit in my face, step on my feet, HIT me a time or two ...

... or EIGHT, or EIGHT HUNDRED ...

... or Q, AFTER you nail me to a tree, or pierce my side, or curse me, hate me, revile me.

Christ is the ever-hated, ever-loved, ever-Loving ...

but Christ NEVER "hates."

And as for "self?"

I challenge you to show me, the (little) self of Christ.

No man, can be lessened, but standing again, and TAKING what another man has to DISH OUT.

I get knocked down, but I get up again ....

only by the wind my friend...not by me.

v/r

Joshua

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Indeed. I suggest you may not be "doing" as much or as well as you lead yourself to believe. Nor do you seem to be willing to accept my hospitable accommodation. Perhaps it is I who should continue to do your share?


You are quite evidently an avid reader. I recommend looking up John Mills' philosophy called "utilitarianism." Keep in mind, it was the very same reasoning used by Truman in deciding to drop the A-bomb on Japan. The greatest good for the most people...at the expense of a few people deemed unworthy. In this particular case it was what? something like 200,000 dead from Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Think about it (as I am certain you are quite able), it is the natural conclusion of your statement when that statement is not tempered with consideration for the minority.

...140,000 estimated dead (70,000 in each city), but who's counting? And the irony is that the president decided to bomb "little cities" instead of the likes of Tokyo or Usaka...

His rationale was that he didn't want indigenous Japanese extinct, nor did he want an estimated 2 million more Americans dying to win the war...

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Indeed. I suggest you may not be "doing" as much or as well as you lead yourself to believe. Nor do you seem to be willing to accept my hospitable accommodation. Perhaps it is I who should continue to do your share?

Aha, judge not! Remember? (It's that one called, `The Holy Bible.' Yeah, right there on the shelf. Or at least, I thought that was the advice the man gave ...

You do your share, I'll do mine. And if one of us has to pick up the slack, I won't fight you for it.

Originally Posted by juantoo3

Keep in mind, it was the very same reasoning used by Truman in deciding to drop the A-bomb on Japan. The greatest good for the most people...at the expense of a few people deemed unworthy. In this particular case it was what? something like 200,000 dead from Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Think about it (as I am certain you are quite able), it is the natural conclusion of your statement when that statement is not tempered with consideration for the minority.

An esoteric perspective is that the secrets of Atomic Energy were provided, from the "Mind of God," to the "mind of man."

You will, or may, question. Presumptiously, of course, I might offer a thought ...

Had the Axis powers gained this secret PRIOR to the Allies, neither you nor I have any real clue as to what darkness would have seized control of our world, and how quickly - or what the present state of Humanity, and the globe, might be (if either still even existed!).

Thus, while there was much destruction, the actual suffering was not nearly what could have been. Many people died, and there was fallout, but esoterically, it is the destruction of the form, and not the life.

Had the Axis powers triumphed, what we would now see would be the triumph of EVIL, on a planetary scale ... involving the setback of the Divine Plan for inconceivable aeons.

Don't blame God, blame man.

Sometimes, yes, Peace has to wait ... but not because it isn't the GOAL. Just because, the RIGHT action, isn't always a "peaceable" one. Yet this will not always be the case.

maintain a cynical attitude, and sooner or later, THIS TOO - will have to change!

(hey, don't look to me for a crowbar - I ain't TOUCHIN' this one!!! FREE WILL, juan! )

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

only by the wind my friend...not by me.

v/r

Joshua

There are two ways in which the Law of Karma tends to work. One is through the natural, and inevitable repercussions, within the worlds of form.

The other, is by the natural, and inevitable repercussions ... beyond the worlds of form.

When the wind blows, I sometimes hear my thoughts, and actions, echoed back, startlingly. No MAN caused that to happen.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

An esoteric perspective is that the secrets of Atomic Energy were provided, from the "Mind of God," to the "mind of man."

The "biblical" view is that there is nothing "man" cannot achieve, once he puts his mind to it...right before God confounded man's language...so Bill Gates developed instant translation software...

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

There are two ways in which the Law of Karma tends to work. One is through the natural, and inevitable repercussions, within the worlds of form.

The other, is by the natural, and inevitable repercussions ... beyond the worlds of form.

When the wind blows, I sometimes hear my thoughts, and actions, echoed back, startlingly. No MAN caused that to happen.

"...and the wind blew, but God's voice wasn't in it..." (para)

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

There are two ways in which the Law of Karma tends to work. One is through the natural, and inevitable repercussions, within the worlds of form.

The other, is by the natural, and inevitable repercussions ... beyond the worlds of form.

When the wind blows, I sometimes hear my thoughts, and actions, echoed back, startlingly. No MAN caused that to happen.

Law of Karma is the law of Karma, regardless of the "form" it affects...

[AndrewX]

I don't think many people really get it. Sometimes, the "lesser of two evils" - amounts literally to DIVINE GOOD ... and the WILL OF GOD.

God at least wants us to have a fighting chance. Christ's Love is unfailing, perfect ... yet the opposition desired, and desires, a situation in which -

- the lesser self may prevail over the greater.

What better way than to enslave humanity, and slowly deprive us of every last freedom that we have won, and come to cherish and enjoy?

The World War was a tragedy, but it was a triumphfor the Forces of Light. I don't know if most Christians share this perspective, or believe that this is so. Yet I have been taught that the form is not as important as the LIFE.

The form, I believe, is our means of gaining `Eternal Life' - but, in keeping with the thread topic, this is not something we seek for, for self alone.

Call it irony, but at, and after a certain point, we cease to live - for the "lesser self" alone. We learn to identify with the selves of all men (Humanity) ... and THIS is what it means to put the needs of the Greatest Number, above the desires of the smaller number, or the one.

Sure I'm an Idealist. And damn proud of it!!!

Where the rubber meats the road? Ah yes, that's where I'm working toward Perfection ... just like YOU!

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

I don't think many people really get it. Sometimes, the "lesser of two evils" - amounts literally to DIVINE GOOD ... and the WILL OF GOD.

God at least wants us to have a fighting chance. Christ's Love is unfailing, perfect ... yet the opposition desired, and desires, a situation in which -

- the lesser self may prevail over the greater.

What better way than to enslave humanity, and slowly deprive us of every last freedom that we have won, and come to cherish and enjoy?

The World War was a tragedy, but it was a triumphfor the Forces of Light. I don't know if most Christians share this perspective, or believe that this is so. Yet I have been taught that the form is not as important as the LIFE.

The form, I believe, is our means of gaining `Eternal Life' - but, in keeping with the thread topic, this is not something we seek for, for self alone.

Call it irony, but at, and after a certain point, we cease to live - for the "lesser self" alone. We learn to identify with the selves of all men (Humanity) ... and THIS is what it means to put the needs of the Greatest Number, above the desires of the smaller number, or the one.

Sure I'm an Idealist. And damn proud of it!!!

Where the rubber meats the road? Ah yes, that's where I'm working toward Perfection ... just like YOU!

Evil, is the absence of good. Therefore, nothing Devine can be in it...(that is biblical).

and the only way man can benefit mankind, is to be true to himself...(the ultimate in selfishness for the greater good).

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Evil, is the absence of good. Therefore, nothing Devine can be in it...(that is biblical).

and the only way man can benefit mankind, is to be true to himself...(the ultimate in selfishness for the greater good).

Hmmm, I believe that an ultimate Reality encompasses all things, all beings, all possibilities. So if the "Divine" is the ultimate, then evil, too, must exist therein. Beyond, or after, a certain level/point/perspective, even `evil' is understood as necessary.

Man benefits mankind by treating fellow man as Brother. Man ceases to say, "I am not my Brother's Keeper," and - while realizing and accepting the limit of one's capabilities, and respecting his Brother's Karma/Dharmic opportunity (including `Free Will') ... he is nonetheless willing - to lay down his life, for his Brother.

Is laying down one's life for another any less than helping to `Keep' that person?

[juantoo3]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Aha, judge not! Remember? (It's that one called, `The Holy Bible.' Yeah, right there on the shelf. Or at least, I thought that was the advice the man gave ...

Aha! Do unto others...Remember?

Originally Posted by AndrewX

You do your share, I'll do mine. And if one of us has to pick up the slack, I won't fight you for it.

Considering I have been, now I am waiting for you to catch up.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

An esoteric perspective is that the secrets of Atomic Energy were provided, from the "Mind of God," to the "mind of man."

Yeah, I've heard that line from a couple of different sources. All of which I question..."which god?"

Originally Posted by AndrewX

You will, or may, question. Presumptiously, of course, I might offer a thought ...

Could it not be you are the presumptuous one? I question because I think for myself. If those thoughts are not in line with yours, given to you by whatever choice of book you read today, that does not mean I am wrong. At least my thoughts are my own, and I will answer for them personally.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Had the Axis powers gained this secret PRIOR to the Allies, neither you nor I have any real clue as to what darkness would have seized control of our world, and how quickly - or what the present state of Humanity, and the globe, might be (if either still even existed!).

Thus, while there was much destruction, the actual suffering was not nearly what could have been. Many people died, and there was fallout, but esoterically, it is the destruction of the form, and not the life.

Had the Axis powers triumphed, what we would now see would be the triumph of EVIL, on a planetary scale ... involving the setback of the Divine Plan for inconceivable aeons.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. It is all moot now.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Don't blame God, blame man.

I haven't "blamed" anybody. I mentioned historic fact. Perhaps I should have added the caveat that it was wartime, and the balance of the equation was that a million American lives potentially were saved, not to mention how many Japanese lives may have ultimately been saved. Germany had already surrendered, the axis did not have the unmolested facilities to pursue nuclear ambitions beyond simple experiments. It was enough to frighten the allies and for the US to start the Manhattan project, but the simple truth is that it would not have developed in Germany under the circumstances anyway...too many parts from too diverse sources getting bombed on a regular basis.

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Sometimes, yes, Peace has to wait ... but not because it isn't the GOAL. Just because, the RIGHT action, isn't always a "peaceable" one. Yet this will not always be the case.

maintain a cynical attitude, and sooner or later, THIS TOO - will have to change!

What, me cynical? At least I am forthright when I am being jaded or cynical to allow the reader to know. "Peace has to wait?" But this seems so contrary to what you have preached in the past, Andrew. So, what I have suspected all along is true, that you would kill me and any like me to further your Theosophist agenda? Because we disagree?

Originally Posted by AndrewX

(hey, don't look to me for a crowbar - I ain't TOUCHIN' this one!!! FREE WILL, juan! )

The difference being I am not looking to take your free will away, and even make accommodation for it...whereas you it would seem see things quite a bit differently.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Hmmm, I believe that an ultimate Reality encompasses all things, all beings, all possibilities. So if the "Divine" is the ultimate, then evil, too, must exist therein. Beyond, or after, a certain level/point/perspective, even `evil' is understood as necessary.

Man benefits mankind by treating fellow man as Brother. Man ceases to say, "I am not my Brother's Keeper," and - while realizing and accepting the limit of one's capabilities, and respecting his Brother's Karma/Dharmic opportunity (including `Free Will') ... he is nonetheless willing - to lay down his life, for his Brother.

Is laying down one's life for another any less than helping to `Keep' that person?

That statement counters the bible's specific point that God cannot abide with evil (nothing exists in a vaccuum).

As far as laying one's life down for his brother (friend), the "selfishness" here is clearly identified as being good. He selfishly want's to live, but selfishly wants his brother to live, so he chooses to be selfishly beneficial to his brother, thus denying himself his own life...


"...take me out of this world, God please - don't take the girl..." good song.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Andrew!

Originally Posted by AndrewX

Aha, toot the horn of self, and that's perfectly fine - but you see, I AM only interested in the "internal Joshua."

We may disagree, but my job is to call all men, BROTHER.

And yeah, that's AFTER you spit in my face, step on my feet, HIT me a time or two ...

... or EIGHT, or EIGHT HUNDRED ...

... or Q, AFTER you nail me to a tree, or pierce my side, or curse me, hate me, revile me.

Christ is the ever-hated, ever-loved, ever-Loving ...

but Christ NEVER "hates."

How contradictory?! You make it seem as though you are the one being persecuted (who is in whose garden?) while you just finished stating that sometimes, I presume when suitable to yourself, the minority (presumably Christians, or at least those like me who disagree with you) are expendable. Since when do you rate the persecution card? What gives you merit to hold a persecution complex as a Theosophist? I don't even play that card...I think its a cheap shot and a coward's way out...but I least I can understand it in some situations. Not yours.