Scriptural Editing - Is it a Problem?

[aburaees]

For some the reliability of holy scripture is related to the amount of editing the scripture has undergone.

Some will assert that if a scripture has undergone ANY changes, it is no longer trustworthy. Conversely some will assert that the parts of scripture that have undergone editing are doctrinally unimportant, and therefore do not affect the reliability of the scripture.

The two most well known examples in the Bible are the Trinity formula in 1 John, and the adulterous woman passage in the Gospel of John:

1. Book of 1 John (Chapter 5, Verse 7);

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one.

2. Gospel of John (Chapter 8, Verse 1-11);

Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Some Bibles omit these passages whilst others include them.

Since all other variants of the Qur'an were destroyed during Uthman's caliphate it is not possible to show two Qur'ans containing different passages, though I believe Rashid Khalaf has omitted a few verses from his rendering of the Qur'an to get the "miracle of the number 19" to fit into the Qur'an.

However, we do have a Hadith record of certain Qur'anic verses that have either been edited, or removed from the Qur'an. The three best examples I can find are as follows:

1. Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 69:

Narrated Anas bin Malik: For thirty days Allah's Apostle invoked Allah to curse those who had killed the companions of Bir-Mauna; he invoked evil upon the tribes of Ral, Dhakwan, and Usaiya who disobeyed Allah and His Apostle. There was reveled about those who were killed at Bir-Mauna a Quranic Verse we used to recite, but it was cancelled later on. The Verse was:
"Inform our people that we have met our Lord. He is pleased with us and He has made us pleased"

2. Muslim Book 008, Number 3421:

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with, her) reported that it had been revealed in the Holy Qur'an that ten clear sucklings make the marriage unlawful, then it was abrogated (and substituted) by five sucklings and Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) died and it was before that time (found) in the Holy Qur'an (and recited by the Muslims).

3. Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Number 118:

Narrated Al-Bara:
When the Verse:--"Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home)," (4.95) was revealed, the Prophet said, "Call so-and-so." That person came to him with an ink-pot and a wooden board or a shoulder scapula bone. The Prophet said (to him), "Write: 'Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and those who strive and fight in the Cause of Allah." Ibn Um Maktum who was sitting behind the Prophet then said, "O Allah's Apostle! I am a blind man." So there was revealed in the place of that Verse, the Verse:--"Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home) except those who are disabled (by injury, or are blind or lame etc.) and those who strive and fight in the Cause of Allah." (4.95)

I was unable to find any examples from the Tanach or the Old Testament.

The questions is, does it matter if a holy scripture demonstrates that it can change over time? Is this corruption, or is it merely refining/editing? Why did people see fit to omit certain passages having included them previously, and why did people see fit to include certain passages having not included them previously?

Did the editors have a hidden agenda, or were they trying to push a certain point of view, or did the feel that what they had before them was insufficient without having some minor alterations made?

Is the Bible or the Qur'an's religious authority jeopardized by such alterations, with the alterations suggesting human hands interfering with God's words? Or did humans with God-given authority make the alterations?


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[cyberpi]

Yes, I find that alteration, deletion, and additions make anything unclean. Try changing just one byte in a computer program and tell me, does it not become unclean? So does alteration of the very language, the meaning of the words used to write the word. Try loading a DOS program into Windows XP... is it clean? Keep in mind the Gospel according to John alledgedly came from John, not Jesus (pbuh), and it was certainly not in English. Twice removed.

The message can absolutely become corrupted just as the feet can become dirty. I find though that the parables are like honey. People call them abstract but the words are concrete. You can argue the meaning of some words, but a seed and a weed have concrete meaning that are easily translated and hard to alter.

I find and agree that what the moth can destroy truly can easily be put back together. Absolutely nothing is ever truly lost. Every action, every thought, every hair on your head, every hair on Adam's (pbuh) head, every transgression is recorded not in time but in the very arrangement of energy in this Universe. A true physicist or scientist agrees with the latter but might doubt that anyone can put Humpty Dumpty (anything) back together again if the pieces are spread far enough apart. So should we be concerned? Well, I am, but there is a sense of relief in the realization.

So then, do you alter or invent in the name of restoration? If you delete you only create a deletion. If you alter you only create an alteration. So I think one has to write his own word and write his own dictionary to go along with it. Then put your own name on it and don't call it from God (swt) or anyone else unless you truly have knowledge otherwise.

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, Aburaees!

Thank you for this thread. Hopefully it will provide a more thorough overview pertaining to the various books used by the people of the book.

For some the reliability of holy scripture is related to the amount of editing the scripture has undergone.

Some will assert that if a scripture has undergone ANY changes, it is no longer trustworthy. Conversely some will assert that the parts of scripture that have undergone editing are doctrinally unimportant, and therefore do not affect the reliability of the scripture.

I am torn on the subject. Like many others, I want my scriptures to be unadulterated, which is why I do keep certain translations available, such as the Interlinear. Even that of necessity must translate into English, because I do not read Hebrew or Greek. So there is the suspicion that perhaps the authors may occasionally play a little loose with translation. That is why the need for a Strong's Concordance, to provide definitions for various words. With tools like these, a Bible scholar can pretty well I believe get at the root intended meaning, what the writer meant.

I seldom find people willing to discuss the Koran in this light. It is frequently said that the Koran must be read in Arabic, yet I have found a few English translations. No doubt the English translations have many of the same difficulties translation creates, it is unavoidable. I hear it often said that the Koran is a gift directly from G-d, yet the same is said as well of the Bible, Old and New Testaments. I have heard it said the Koran is infallible, just as I have heard the same of the Bible. I have heard it said that men wrote the Bible, yet is this not also true of the Koran?

Hopefully this will lead to a peaceful, intelligent discussion. It is difficult to get Muslims to speak analytically about their beliefs. It seems, in my experience, that Muslims are quick to dissect other's beliefs, but take rabid offense without even taking thought at the mere mention of analyzing Islam and the Koran. We'll see...

Peace.

[aburaees]

Originally Posted by Zaakir

you can call it editing, but as you are muslim, you beleive that the Quran is the word of Allah (s.w.t)? well...the ahadith you gave me i have raed, i havent researched into it, nut ata a first thought i would say, hadith we know are written by people and some of them say different things, Allah (s.w.t) may have wanted to change this part of the Quran just as He revealed different parts at different times,,,but the right times. and it has to be noted taht this was done before the prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) died

Well according to the Hadith narrated by 'Aisha, the suckling 5 times rule was in the Qur'an before Muhammad died - but now it is gone. So someone other than Muhammad failed to include the suckling verse in the final edit. There are other verses that disappeared:

Bukhari Volume 8, Book 82, Number 817

Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married person (male & female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse, and we did recite this Verse and understood and memorized it. Allah's Apostle did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him.
I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, 'By Allah, we do not find the Verse of the Rajam in Allah's Book,' and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has revealed. And the punishment of the Rajam is to be inflicted to any married person (male & female), who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if the required evidence is available or there is conception or confession.

Likewise, someone failed to include this verse in the final edit of the Qur'an.

So when a verse is omitted from the Bible... is this not the same thing that has happened with the Qur'an? And should it neccessarily infer that these scriptures are corrupted? Or did God oversee their editing?


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[aburaees]

You know, brother Zakir...

These Hadiths (from Bukhari and Muslim) I quoted in this thread don't necessarily prove that the Qur'an has changed...

...the Hadiths themselves could have been fabricated, Allahu 'Alim


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