scriptural basis for christian objection to homosexuality

[AndrewX]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i am saying that the putative sanctioning or punishment of homosexuality is not a matter for human action, but for G!D, insofar as it is no skin off my behind what someone else does in their bedroom.

Not meaning to but into a discussion I haven't been following ... but why on earth a person would want do this kind of policing of others' moral, private behavior, relations, relationships, etc. - is beyond me.

So, too, do I think it is, or should be, beyond ALL of us, no matter what we believe about homosexuality ... or is it that we really just don't think God can handle it, and that WE need to run things for Him?

It's also wrong to steal, blaspheme, commit adultery, and so on ... yet I don't hear Christian objections to people cursing their kids, and each other, in Wal-Mart!

I mean, come on, why not launch a crusade to STAMP OUT the blasphemers, and thieves!?! Poor Fred Phelps, you missed your true calling!

The way I look at it, occasionally homosexuality becomes a genuine social problem and a cause for concern, because you have a sicko daycare pedophile who just has to go and ruin it for everybody!

But aside from that, and our Michael Jacksons, let's just remember WHAT great religious Institution has been under the most fire for the past couple or so years - for precisely this issue of HOMOSEXUALITY! More specifically, err, pedophilia! Yuk!!!

Hmm. Sounds like an internal problem to me.

Guess I shouldn't have butted in. But then, I have gay friends, I'm gay-friendly, and while I, myself, have reservations and preferences ... I also agree strongly with what bananabrain just posted - SO, I can't understand why people apparently have no faith that "God's got things under control," to speak colloquially.

[paul]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

i am not disputing that. what i am disputing is how the words transmitted via the saints are understood and interpreted.


well, i don't know about that, but when people quote jewish texts to me i feel it is only right that they understand how jews interpret these texts.


i'm not trying to "extinguish the flame". i'm trying to prevent people like you from using it to set fire to homosexuals.

didn't jesus say something like "render unto caesar what is caesar's, but render unto G!D what is G!D's"? i am saying that the putative sanctioning or punishment of homosexuality is not a matter for human action, but for G!D, insofar as it is no skin off my behind what someone else does in their bedroom.

b'shalom

bananabrain

There can be no doubt of the one voice the Saints all throughout history held on this subject.

There is different interperatations in Judaism, we talking here of the Christian Scripture.
So I would think we are talking of the Christian interperatation of the Scriptures, who originally were Jews and witnessed to having the mysteries of the Jewsih faith revealed to them.
It would be said by them that the Jews of today and even of Jesus's day, are ignorant to much of the meaning of their own faith, but that they hold the true understanding of it.

I'm not about hurting any one, your making blind accusations which i have given you no reason for.

Everyone has their own freewill to do as they please whether even evil or not.
There is a law of the land which tries to prevent much evil, but is far from perfect.

We're not discussing here what someone does in their own bedroom, we're discussing the scriptural basis for Christian objection to homosexuality.

This is their beleif as a faith, not what should be forced on others, but something that is to speak to peoples hearts and works a change in them.

The only person a Christian is called to correct is their own children, and to help others in the correct ways of their own faith if the other is willing.

The question is aksed here in a Christian section, and i would think by the title and the section they've asked it in they seek the understanding of the Christian faith.
Nobody is quoting Jewish texts to you as your understanding of Judaism.
But to the Christian understanding of the meaning of what was given to Moses, David, the Prophets etc., and Jesus's followers.

i think it maybe a case of you forcing your interperatation on others, where it's not been asked of you.

[AndrewX]

I will repeat my question. WHY Homosexuality? Why not other "sins"?

Is it, as I think you may have suggested, Faithful, because this is coming into the spotlight, because there is more awareness - even acceptance - of homosexuality?

If this is so, and even if we can cite passage after passage after passage telling us that homosexuality is a sin, what does it accomplish?

My inquiry is really just to find out if the purpose of this, and similar threads, is to form an amen corner, or perhaps help Christians to reassure themselves that God doesn't like homosexuality, because the Bible tells me so.

Sure, that sounds sarcastic, but it's a legimate question. What's the POINT? That's what I'm asking!

And it also comes back to why not freak out about eleventy-five hundred other odd "sins"? But that would make sense, if it's due to homosexuality being "in the news."

Still, for every Biblical passage anyone might quote, stating that sodomy is a sin, yadda yadda, I will cite FIVE telling you that we should love our neighbor as ourselves, love our enemies rather than hate them (whoever our "enemies" happen to be), and seek to FORGIVE others, even as Our Father Who Art in Heaven forgives US. Not that homosexuals have sinned against us, but just to cover all the bases ...

And what can I prove, by such endless scripture-quoting? Perhaps, as wil said, what a long way we all have to go ....

[bananabrain]

(andrew, it's nice to see you and i agreeing for once.)

Originally Posted by paul

There can be no doubt of the one voice the Saints all throughout history held on this subject.

well, actually, yes there can. at least there can be in jewish terms, although if by saints you mean the christian ones then i'll let that one go.

There is different interperatations in Judaism, we talking here of the Christian Scripture.

yes, but where the christian scripture relies on the jewish scripture for authority, i have a case to argue whether the interpretation is correct. plus, when you originally jumped in, you were appealing to *nature* and other "intrinsic" stuff as evidence that homosexuality was wrong. stick to christian scripture, because judging from the science and the empirical evidence from biology, you're on a bit of a sticky wicket.

It would be said by them that the Jews of today and even of Jesus's day, are ignorant to much of the meaning of their own faith, but that they hold the true understanding of it.

well, i may be misunderstanding you, but that sounds like you are arguing that these christian saints have the true understanding of the jewish faith, which i fear i would not be able to agree with.

I'm not about hurting anyone, you're making blind accusations which i have given you no reason for.

perhaps not, but the record of christians who are opposed to homosexuality on biblical grounds is not exactly stellar, so you can hardly blame me for my concern.

This is their beleif as a faith, not what should be forced on others, but something that is to speak to peoples hearts and works a change in them.

but if you are going up to 'big gay al' or whoever and "speaking to his heart", as you put it, i would be hard put to distinguish that from forcing your opinions upon him.

The only person a Christian is called to correct is their own children, and to help others in the correct ways of their own faith if the other is willing.

what if the child knows he's gay and can't do anything about it? there's plenty of evidence for that.

Nobody is quoting Jewish texts to you as your understanding of Judaism. But to the Christian understanding of the meaning of what was given to Moses, David, the Prophets etc., and Jesus's followers.

"what was given" to all those guys were the *jewish texts*, therefore if you are positing an interpretation of them, it will have to stand up to scrutiny. and, before anyone objects, i'm not saying non-jewish interpretations are inherently inaccurate, but i am saying that they may be incorrectly contextualised and therefore as a result could be questioned.

b'shalom

bananabrain

[Faithfulservant]

From a Christian perspective.. any sexual sin is "bad" because you are sinning against the body which is the temple of God. You cannot live in a homosexual lifestyle ever and be in Christ. You can be homosexual and be in Christ.. its the act of sinning that is the lifestyle that is abhorrent to the Spirit and because He is God he cannot be in your sin. THe same goes for fornication and adulterers. The problem with homosexual society is that they do not believe they are in sin when they commit sexual acts.. they think they are ok and its a lie meant to deceive.

Its self control.. Just because I have a temptation to sin doesnt mean I have a right to act on it. temptation + action = sin. I feel for homosexuals because imagine having to deny yourself that part of you that is so huge.. your sexuality. Teens have to do it all the time.. people used to wait till they were married btw.. doesnt anyone remember that? Why is it so different now.. suddenly just because you have an urge does that mean you have to indulge??

[juantoo3]

Kindest Regards, FaithfulServant!

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

people used to wait till they were married btw.. doesnt anyone remember that?

Probably off topic, but I gotta respond.

I remember when this "used to be." Even then, it really wasn't. Yes, it was scandalous to have a child out of wedlock, but it happened...all too frequently. Couples got married because she was pregnant (how many gals just a generation or so ago got themselves knocked up just to catch a husband?). How successful were shotgun marriages? Not very.

I know many of us have an idealized image of what it was like 50 years ago when everything was white bread and picket fences...but the truth is there never was an "Ozzie and Harriet" or "Leave It to Beaver" society. These were idealized images that promoted a lifestyle (one I might add that included segregation, sexism and a few other discriminatory practices) that we were to strive for. These images are still worth striving for, stripped of the discrimination. But the reality is probably more like "the Honeymooners," or at best "I Love Lucy." "Father Knows Best" is a wonderful image to aim at, but the ideal of a nuclear family is often upset by the realities of everyday life.

There are lifestyles I want nothing to do with...but that does not mean they do not impact on my life. I have no desire to live a homosexual lifestyle, or have a child out of wedlock, or divorce, or be a drug addict, or be a pedophile, or any of a number of "unwise" lifestyle choices. Yet, I cannot dismiss the impact of these things on my life either. I have known homosexual people that were otherwise decent people, all things considered. I have known homosexual people that weren't worth giving the time of day. I have grown up with kids born out of wedlock, and they go on to live lives like everybody else, if they are allowed to. Single motherhood seems to be the fashion nowadays, ! Most of my friends have married and divorced and remarried several times by now (in their mid-40's). Had I not had a good swift kick in the pants at an opportune moment, I might be a drug addict now (or worse, have already died by overdose!). Pedophiles can be forgiven, if they are willing to remedy their ways.

People make unwise choices all the time. It happens. It is called "life." We can choose how we will direct our own lives, but others must learn for themselves.

I never learned a thing from anybody pointing a finger at me and yelling how bad I was. I have learned many things from people who accepted me as I was and pointing out, lovingly, how I was hurting myself by my choices.

My two cents.

[wil]

Yes, back in the day when we kept homosexuals in the closet and pretended they didn't exist.

Yes, back in the day there were a tremendous number of premature babies...only 6-7 months term but bouncing 7-9 pounders...amazing.

Yes, back in the days of wine and roses...

I'm currently reading Chesapeake... a fictional story of course, but Michener is pretty good about creating situations that would have applied....lets see, this hero he was Catholic but publicly claimed Protestant so he could work and not be persecuted...and then took one woman as a wife, no priest around or rev so they just lived for a couple years and had a kid...then his Dad sent over a bride so sionara to the first, and took on the second...oh and 15 years later a Priest happened by the Island so he married them....back in the day... 1600's

I didn't have sex with my wife before we were married, she was my girlfriend then...back in the day....

It would be lovely if back in the day...it was as we imagine it was...back in the day...

there is a reason all this stuff is talked about in the bible....because it was a problem....back in that day

[Faithfulservant]

I never learned a thing from anybody pointing a finger at me and yelling how bad I was. I have learned many things from people who accepted me as I was and pointing out, lovingly, how I was hurting myself by my choices.

Who is pointing a finger and who is yelling?

Yes homosexuals were in the closet because they knew and everyone else knew it was wrong. Just because they dont do that today doesnt make it automatically "right" sin is sin. Sin is the same as it was when it was first committed as it is now..

People dont openly declare they have a drug addiction or a porn addiction or are pedophiles.. people also dont shout to the world that they just murdered someone or are envying their neighbor.. Society is desensitizing us to the law we have on our hearts on issues of immoral sexuality.. Im not just speaking of homosexuality.. Im speaking of all of it. Everyone has this idea that we are intolerant and bigots. We are just as tempted as the rest of the world..we deal with the same enemies but we understand who and what our enemy is.

We have three enemies:

Satan
The World
Our own flesh

I believe the bible when it says to resist the devil and he will flee
I believe the bible when it says to cast off things of the flesh
I believe the bible when it says you cannot serve the world and Jesus Christ both.

Im not hating on them Im praying for their salvation. The flesh is a bondage worse than any chain ever made.. it will pull you straight down into the pits of hell literally and figuratively.

my 2cents

[BlaznFattyz]

Originally Posted by bananabrain

didn't jesus say something like "render unto caesar what is caesar's, but render unto G!D what is G!D's"? i am saying that the putative sanctioning or punishment of homosexuality is not a matter for human action, but for G!D, insofar as it is no skin off my behind what someone else does in their bedroom.

Not our judgement, but our spreading of the gospel, because God uses men through the holy spirit to build his kingdom. God is holy and God is love, therefore, we are to love one another. If we love others like God loves us, then we will want to spread the good news that salvation is in his Holy Son. But like as he which called you is holy, be yourselves also holy in all manner of living, because it is written ye shall be holy for I am holy.

[wil]

I see the question being asked as many Jews are reading the same texts, wrote the texts that are quoted and disagree with the interpretations.

FS you say others say you are intolerant, but isn't it true? Not trying to raise hackles here, but I don't believe you believe being intolerant of sin as being wrong. I think you see being intolerant of what you see as sin as being right, so why should you be upset about being labeled intolerant?

You have your beliefs, I have mine, everyone else has theirs, we don't agree.

[Prober]

Originally Posted by wil

I see the question being asked as many Jews are reading the same texts, wrote the texts that are quoted and disagree with the interpretations.

BTW, There's plenty in the NT, too.

[Sunny C.]

I'm tired of homosexuals and their "lifestyle." Because I'm an American, and a patriot, I have to go to bat for anyone who is being treated unequally under the law. That's my civic obligation as a citizen. I really wish that we would just bite the bullet and level the playing field, then I could go on my merry way and not give homosexuality another thought. But some people seem to think that their moral values should be imposed on us all. They can't mind their own business, but feel compelled to force their way, their scriptural understanding, their religious values on the rest of us. So I've got to go to bat for the gays. Man, am I tired of that.

But, I have cause for hope. It's possible that the religious right has destroyed it's credibility by aligning itself politically with the Bush misadministration. I think they've blown their wad. So maybe, just maybe we can get back to evolving into the secularist society the founders had in mind.

[AndrewX]

ROFL, Sunny C.! I needed a good belly laugh for the evening!

And, you make many good points along the way. I like your style.

Thanks for the laugh!

~andrew

[juantoo3]

Dearest FaithfulServant!

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Who is pointing a finger and who is yelling?

I am not accusing with my statement, please don't take it personally.

Originally Posted by Faithfulservant

Yes homosexuals were in the closet because they knew and everyone else knew it was wrong. Just because they dont do that today doesnt make it automatically "right" sin is sin. Sin is the same as it was when it was first committed as it is now..

People dont openly declare they have a drug addiction or a porn addiction or are pedophiles.. people also dont shout to the world that they just murdered someone or are envying their neighbor.. Society is desensitizing us to the law we have on our hearts on issues of immoral sexuality.. Im not just speaking of homosexuality.. Im speaking of all of it. Everyone has this idea that we are intolerant and bigots. We are just as tempted as the rest of the world..we deal with the same enemies but we understand who and what our enemy is.

We have three enemies:

Satan
The World
Our own flesh

I believe the bible when it says to resist the devil and he will flee
I believe the bible when it says to cast off things of the flesh
I believe the bible when it says you cannot serve the world and Jesus Christ both.

Im not hating on them Im praying for their salvation. The flesh is a bondage worse than any chain ever made.. it will pull you straight down into the pits of hell literally and figuratively.

my 2cents

Can you see?, you and I are saying the same thing in different words.

Love the sinner, hate the sin.

The differences between us are in how to go about it.

[Faithfulservant]

Originally Posted by wil

I see the question being asked as many Jews are reading the same texts, wrote the texts that are quoted and disagree with the interpretations.

FS you say others say you are intolerant, but isn't it true? Not trying to raise hackles here, but I don't believe you believe being intolerant of sin as being wrong. I think you see being intolerant of what you see as sin as being right, so why should you be upset about being labeled intolerant?

You have your beliefs, I have mine, everyone else has theirs, we don't agree.

Im NOT intolerant of the person. I am intolerant of the sin. Thank you for helping me see that I need to clarify that. Jesus hung out with the thieves and liars..

I wish you all could have known me before.. Ive been telling you how wretched I was in my sin.. I WAS WRETCHED! I was immoral I slept with people of the same sex. I dont know how to get you to understand that I am not judging the person anymore than I could judge myself. I AM that person. But Jesus loved me and forgave me and oh sweet Lord he changed me. I am not the same person I was. He is so awesome and so merciful and He saved me from myself.

Look at my avatar and replace the guy with a girl and thats me.. I am forgiven.