Saudi Marriage 'Expert' Advises Men in 'Right Way' to Beat Their Wives

[madeinrussia89]

Originally Posted by Saltmeister

But the only reason why I believe individualism is so important is because that is how the economy has been structured and organised in the West. You can't get a good job unless you've got great ideas or a great mind. The other jobs out there are for the lowly -- boring jobs like garbage collection, cleaning public toilets, etc. (pardon me if I offended anyone there!!!!)

Garbage collection wouldn't be so bad, they can make some good money if you don't mind the smell...

Then again, madeinrussia isn't a Westerner. She's Russian. I don't know, however, how different Russia is from the West in terms of individualist attitudes. You'd have to ask her. Though . . . I would have thought . . . demanding sexual equality was individualist enough.

I'm not Russian, but... I know that in Russia, individualism is very much important, as well as the collective, especially right now. People still whine and complain about the government trampling their individual rights (all the time, I'm not kidding), want sexual equality, etc etc.

[greymare]

this maybe off the issue, but Salty.... being a Garbo is a good paying job (Sanitary Engineer), so is being a Toilet Cleaner, Hell even a Shop Assistant, excuse my interuption as I am only one of the Lowly.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

I see how it is an insane cost. But to me that doesn't make it okay for men to have an upperhand on women just because a man with multiple wives would not need a DNA test as opposed to a woman with more than one husband.

Perhaps you will understand it better if you seperate out the reasons for allowing polygamy. As with the Bible polygamy was allowed for the betterment of mankind, not to belittle women.

1. Men tend to be the ones that go to and die in battle. This leaves women and children with no means of support. Should they starve, prostitute themselves or marry a man that can afford to provide for her and her children, even if he has another wife if there are not enough men to go around?

2. If a woman is physically unable to ever have sexual relations, what would happen to her if her husband divorced her? Who would provide for her? (please note that Islamic law allows a woman to divorce her husband and remarry if he is unable to have sex). Who would then marry a divorced woman unable to have any sexual relations?

3. If a woman is unable to have children? Again if the husband divorces her who would provide for her? Who would then marry her after her divorce?

What are your solutions to these very human problems, for all women around the world (not just the ones in the West with jobs or social security)?

Men that choose to take more than one wife because they like to sleep around are going to have to answer to Allah for that behaviour. Allowing polygamy was about the protection of women and children.

When Muslims look for the example of any ruling we look to the life of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh). He was married to his first wife for 25 years and was only married to her, even though polygamy was the norm then.

After the death of his first wife he took numerous wives, only one of which was a virgin (meaning the others had all been married before). They were widows and women that had been divorced. Only one of these wives had a child with the Prophet. This is our example, not rampant sexuality and a way to have your leg over with numerous women without commiting adultery (although that is what some men now do).

Most Muslim people accept that there is currently no need for polygamy in most areas of the world but we cannot reject it for the future. It was a solution given for us to deal with certain problems when they arise. What if there is a large war and half the men in Egypt are killed? Should I allow women and their children to starve because I don't agree with polygamy? I would be out on the street, under those circumstances, looking for another woman with children for my husband to marry. Being me I would make him choose which one he wanted to sleep with but I would welcome her and help to bring up her children.

[madeinrussia89]

1. Men tend to be the ones that go to and die in battle. This leaves women and children with no means of support. Should they starve, prostitute themselves or marry a man that can afford to provide for her and her children, even if he has another wife if there are not enough men to go around?

I don't see a problem until they sleep with the women they are supposed to be supporting out of a catastrophe. Why would they need to be married all the sudden and why they can't be supported in a purely non-sexual context.

2. If a woman is physically unable to ever have sexual relations, what would happen to her if her husband divorced her? Who would provide for her? (please note that Islamic law allows a woman to divorce her husband and remarry if he is unable to have sex). Who would then marry a divorced woman unable to have any sexual relations?

Why does she need to be married again? She can get a job and support herself.

3. If a woman is unable to have children? Again if the husband divorces her who would provide for her? Who would then marry her after her divorce?

Someone who doesn't want kids would marry her. Not all guys are hell-bent on kids.

These are my solutions. I just don't see it as necessary for polygamy to even exist anymore. We have enough people to go around, we're not running out of men.

Men that choose to take more than one wife because they like to sleep around are going to have to answer to Allah for that behaviour. Allowing polygamy was about the protection of women and children.

That's exactly what I think of when I think of polygamy in recent times, men wanting to sleep around and get a piece of everyone's pie.

When Muslims look for the example of any ruling we look to the life of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh). He was married to his first wife for 25 years and was only married to her, even though polygamy was the norm then.

After the death of his first wife he took numerous wives, only one of which was a virgin (meaning the others had all been married before). They were widows and women that had been divorced. Only one of these wives had a child with the Prophet. This is our example, not rampant sexuality and a way to have your leg over with numerous women without commiting adultery (although that is what some men now do).

Did he sleep with all of them even if he only had a child by one of them?

Most Muslim people accept that there is currently no need for polygamy in most areas of the world but we cannot reject it for the future.

Then why is there so much polygamy if they know they don't need it?

It was a solution given for us to deal with certain problems when they arise. What if there is a large war and half the men in Egypt are killed? Should I allow women and their children to starve because I don't agree with polygamy? I would be out on the street, under those circumstances, looking for another woman with children for my husband to marry. Being me I would make him choose which one he wanted to sleep with but I would welcome her and help to bring up her children.

I just don't understand why they need to constantly be married off to someone or why men can't just help them out of the purity of their hearts without marrying them.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

I don't see a problem until they sleep with the women they are supposed to be supporting out of a catastrophe. Why would they need to be married all the sudden and why they can't be supported in a purely non-sexual context.

Would the woman want to spend her life without sex? She may still be very young. It would not be a short term act of charity but a lifetime commitment to look after her and provide for her 'every' need. A man may marry her and never have the urge to touch her, it is their choice.

They would have to be legally married in order for them to be able to be alone together (even for a cup of tea).

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

Why does she need to be married again? She can get a job and support herself.

One of these days you are going to have to visit me in Egypt and see some of the people you are talking about. Last year 2 jobs were going at the water works, over 2000 men turned up to apply for the 2 jobs.

So where are these women going to work? People do not all live the way we do in the West and they have no social security, no free medical care, no free education, etc. How are they going to support themselves?

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

Someone who doesn't want kids would marry her. Not all guys are hell-bent on kids.

When I meet a Muslim man that doesn't want children I will let you know but everyone I have ever met or spoken with is desperate to have children.

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

These are my solutions. I just don't see it as necessary for polygamy to even exist anymore. We have enough people to go around, we're not running out of men.

Who is we? There are areas of the world with a glut of women and some areas with a glut of men. The 1994 stats for the UK sensus state that the UK had at that time 22.31 million males and 23.84 million females of marriagable age. That is a surplus of 1.53 million females. If every person wanted to get married that would leave 1.53 million women with no hope of every finding a husband.

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

That's exactly what I think of when I think of polygamy in recent times, men wanting to sleep around and get a piece of everyone's pie.

Unfortunatey that is largely what it has become in many cases but was not the intention. It is also seen by some as a status symbol (ie I can afford 2 wives). They will answer for it.

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

Did he sleep with all of them even if he only had a child by one of them?

There is no way of knowing this. Stories say he would 'visit all of his wives in turn' and talk of his 'vigourous manhood' However, no-one was with them and for all we know he played tiddlywinks with them. When I consider this I think about babies, he had a child with his wife Maria so we know he could have children. Many of his wives had children with their first husbands, so we know they could have children. Do the maths

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

Then why is there so much polygamy if they know they don't need it?

Where is this 'so much' polygamy? As I say I have met one person that had 2 wives (one died this year of cancer and the second wife helped for 2 years to care for her) and I live in a country that is 98% Muslim (although I haven't met everyne in the country). Earlier this year Egypt news channel did a programme about a guy with 4 wives and it was very tongue in cheek (basically suggesting the guy was a bit cukoo).

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

I just don't understand why they need to constantly be married off to someone or why men can't just help them out of the purity of their hearts without marrying them.

You make it sound like a requirement. A man can choose to financially support a woman without marrying her.

I don't understand it either but I have spoken to Western converts that want to be in polygamous marriage. They love the idea of having lots of women and children around them, they also say they don't have a problem with jealousy as polygamy allows more children to be born.

There are very happy people in polygamous marriages and I am not going to say it is wrong. As long as all the parties have the choice then go for it, just don't ask me to join in.

[madeinrussia89]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Would the woman want to spend her life without sex? She may still be very young. It would not be a short term act of charity but a lifetime commitment to look after her and provide for her 'every' need. A man may marry her and never have the urge to touch her, it is their choice.

They would have to be legally married in order for them to be able to be alone together (even for a cup of tea).

She could just marry someone that isn't married, work for herself, or he could give her money through a bank and then they don't even have to be in the same room as each other, or be supported by a relative.

One of these days you are going to have to visit me in Egypt and see some of the people you are talking about. Last year 2 jobs were going at the water works, over 2000 men turned up to apply for the 2 jobs.

So where are these women going to work? People do not all live the way we do in the West and they have no social security, no free medical care, no free education, etc. How are they going to support themselves?

What a coincidence, neither do I. Medical care isn't free, probably no social security (once my parents' generation gets done sucking it dry), and definately not free education.

Surely there are jobs that women can do but men cannot. And even if there aren't an abundance of them, I don't see why a man could not support a woman without marrying her or why a relative couldn't help or why there isn't some social safety net. They could avoid polygamy and problems altogether if they had a social safety net.

When I meet a Muslim man that doesn't want children I will let you know but everyone I have ever met or spoken with is desperate to have children.

There has to be at least a dozen somewhere ...out of a half billion or so.

Who is we? There are areas of the world with a glut of women and some areas with a glut of men. The 1994 stats for the UK sensus state that the UK had at that time 22.31 million males and 23.84 million females of marriagable age. That is a surplus of 1.53 million females. If every person wanted to get married that would leave 1.53 million women with no hope of every finding a husband.

" We " as in the entire planet, not specific countries. Can't the women just leave and find a man somewhere else that has a surplus?

Unfortunatey that is largely what it has become in many cases but was not the intention. It is also seen by some as a status symbol (ie I can afford 2 wives). They will answer for it.

I read this....

Women (An-Nisáa)
4-3 And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice.

And then I read this next verse and it kinda sounds like Mohammed discourages it....

Women (An-Nisáa)
4-129 " Ye will not be able to deal equally between (your) wives, however much ye wish (to do so). But turn not altogether away (from one), leaving her as in suspense. If ye do good and keep from evil, lo! Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful."

for all we know he played tiddlywinks with them.

Where is this 'so much' polygamy? As I say I have met one person that had 2 wives (one died this year of cancer and the second wife helped for 2 years to care for her) and I live in a country that is 98% Muslim (although I haven't met everyne in the country). Earlier this year Egypt news channel did a programme about a guy with 4 wives and it was very tongue in cheek (basically suggesting the guy was a bit cukoo).

2% may seem like a small number for a country allowing polygamy, but that's a lot when you think of it in terms of people on the Earth. I dont know how a man can handle one wife, let alone two, I'd think that would seem like a nightmare for most.

You make it sound like a requirement. A man can choose to financially support a woman without marrying her.

It sounded like a requirement to me because it was " marriage marriage marriage support marriage marriage marriage support".

I don't understand it either but I have spoken to Western converts that want to be in polygamous marriage. They love the idea of having lots of women and children around them, they also say they don't have a problem with jealousy as polygamy allows more children to be born.

There are very happy people in polygamous marriages and I am not going to say it is wrong. As long as all the parties have the choice then go for it, just don't ask me to join in.

They at least have to notify you if they're taking a new wife, right?

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

They could avoid polygamy and problems altogether if they had a social safety net.

Polygamy is the social safety net for women in Islamic societies. It is not something that is seen as 'to be avoided at all costs'. It is not a requirement and is not even encouraged in most places, it is simply allowed IF the man can treat his wives equally in all matters (other than the degree of love he has for them as you cannot control what your heart feels).

What would happen if a man took on financial responsibilty for a woman but without marriage and then died a week later? She and her children would not be entitled to any money from his estate. Just chucking that in there to be considered.

I am sorry but it is very 'western' and nieve to suggest these women can just go get a job or move to a different country. Life just isn't like that for millions of women. That is like saying all the unemployed people in Europe can just go out and get a job, if they can't get one in their own country they can just go to a different country. Sounds great in principle but in the real world it doesn't work that way.

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

There has to be at least a dozen somewhere ...out of a half billion or so.

Having children is a religious duty so I doubt there are even a dozen.

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

4-3 And if ye fear that ye will not deal fairly by the orphans, marry of the women, who seem good to you, two or three or four; and if ye fear that ye cannot do justice (to so many) then one (only) or (the captives) that your right hands possess. Thus it is more likely that ye will not do injustice.

Now ask yourself why the verse begins by talking about orphans?!

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

4-129 " Ye will not be able to deal equally between (your) wives, however much ye wish (to do so). But turn not altogether away (from one), leaving her as in suspense. If ye do good and keep from evil, lo! Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful."

Yes it is discouraged in the Quran, but permission is given for times it is needed. If I give you permission to slap me round the face it doesn't mean you will do it, be justified in doing it or that I want you to, however if I was hysterical and liable to hurt myself then it may be the best option for us both.

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

I dont know how a man can handle one wife, let alone two, I'd think that would seem like a nightmare for most.

That is the attitude of most Muslim men I speak to, including my husband

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

It sounded like a requirement to me because it was " marriage marriage marriage support marriage marriage marriage support".

No, a marriage is strongly encouraged to keep us away from the sin of fornication and to have children. A man can only marry if he can afford the dowry and if he can't then he must remain chaste and patient.

Let me put it into context, this is from an Egyptian website:

2001 less than 3 percent of men inEgypt had more than one wife

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

They at least have to notify you if they're taking a new wife, right?

Interesting question. No he is not required to get the first wifes permission, however not doing so is likely to lead to a rapid divorce and then on the Day of Judgement the man will have to explain his actions.

This is from a Muslim Q&A session:

So in the light of the above, it’s clear that the matter (polygamy) is not just having a right to do so, it’s how you use that right. As we have said in many fatwas how Islam caters for the rights of women, men should not tamper with rights that Islam made inalienable to women, part of which is to respect their humanity. They are not property that can be done with at any time without any consideration; women are life partners.

You can read the full answer to "wife's permission" here:

Going for Second Marriage: Do I Need Wife’s Permission? - IslamonLine.net - Ask The Scholar

[bob x]

If Muhammad only had a child by one out of many wives, I think the odds are quite likely that he was sterile, and that child was not in fact his.

[madeinrussia89]

Originally Posted by Muslimwoman

Polygamy is the social safety net for women in Islamic societies. It is not something that is seen as 'to be avoided at all costs'. It is not a requirement and is not even encouraged in most places, it is simply allowed IF the man can treat his wives equally in all matters (other than the degree of love he has for them as you cannot control what your heart feels).

But that's so much more trouble that it's worth. Some kind of welfare system (as long as it isn't the US model) would eliminate this issue altogether and I don't know why these countries with the higher instances of polygamy seem to ignoring the possibility of something like that existing other than the fact that they can't seem to get anything else together. Men wouldn't have to worry about supporting women because the government would do it.

What would happen if a man took on financial responsibilty for a woman but without marriage and then died a week later? She and her children would not be entitled to any money from his estate. Just chucking that in there to be considered.

That could happen in or out of marriage, it is just something that happens.

What if a woman becomes a second wive and then that husband dies? The cycle just repeats itself? Become a wife to someone else after that? A welfare system could solve problems like that.

I am sorry but it is very 'western' and nieve to suggest these women can just go get a job or move to a different country. Life just isn't like that for millions of women. That is like saying all the unemployed people in Europe can just go out and get a job, if they can't get one in their own country they can just go to a different country. Sounds great in principle but in the real world it doesn't work that way.

It is naive to think that the only choice women have is to marry, it's like " when in doubt, marry ". That is a demeaning view of the choices available to women in Islamic countries. People go to different countries all the time to get jobs, legally and illegally. It's not a " Western " thing, it's kind of a global thing.

I realize that they may not be able to get a job, might not be able to move, but they might not be able to get a husband either, and in the systems that allow polygamy it screws women who would be in that position because that seems to be the only means of a safety net and it is clearly not reliable.

Having children is a religious duty so I doubt there are even a dozen.

Does one get punished if they don't have children?

Yes it is discouraged in the Quran, but permission is given for times it is needed.

If I give you permission to slap me round the face it doesn't mean you will do it, be justified in doing it or that I want you to, however if I was hysterical and liable to hurt myself then it may be the best option for us both.

If it is discouraged then people should try to avoid it and advance their societies so it doesn't have to come to that but I don't see them doing that excluding the countries that have outlawed it.

Is it a commandment in Islam that one must marry?

Let me put it into context, this is from an Egyptian website:

2001 less than 3 percent of men inEgypt had more than one wife

So at any one time there can be nearly 520,000 men who have more than one wife. That's a whole lot of people.

Interesting question. No he is not required to get the first wifes permission, however not doing so is likely to lead to a rapid divorce and then on the Day of Judgement the man will have to explain his actions.

So is causing a divorce a wrongdoing in Islam?

[wil]

I cringe whenever someone thinks the government will have the answer or be best to take care of our people.

[Saltmeister]

Originally Posted by wil

I cringe whenever someone thinks the government will have the answer or be best to take care of our people.

Islam, or Shariah Law, would be the "government" in this instance.

It sounds as if no system would solve all social problems. Only through effort will they be resolved. People have to speak up when they have needs so that others will look after them. Stay silent and it means you have none and don't want help.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

If Muhammad only had a child by one out of many wives, I think the odds are quite likely that he was sterile, and that child was not in fact his.

He also had 6 children with his first wife (with whom he was solely married for 25 years) so I doubt he was sterile.

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

But that's so much more trouble that it's worth. Some kind of welfare system (as long as it isn't the US model) would eliminate this issue altogether and I don't know why these countries with the higher instances of polygamy seem to ignoring the possibility of something like that existing other than the fact that they can't seem to get anything else together. Men wouldn't have to worry about supporting women because the government would do it.

It is a mans natural place and instinct to take care of women. Are you aware of how many countries do not have any social security system? Governments do not take care of anyone, society does through a system of taxation. When the majority of your population are poor who do you tax adequately to support the majority?

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

That could happen in or out of marriage, it is just something that happens.

It cannot happen in Islam, inheritence is set out in the Quran not by people leaving wills.

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

That is a demeaning view of the choices available to women in Islamic countries.

No it's not, Muslim women can choose to work, marry or marry as a second wife. In Islam if I work my husband cannot use a single pound of my salary to pay for our life, he must provide everything and it is my choice if I help out with bills. I would hardly call that demeaning.

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

I realize that they may not be able to get a job, might not be able to move, but they might not be able to get a husband either, and in the systems that allow polygamy it screws women who would be in that position because that seems to be the only means of a safety net and it is clearly not reliable.

Why is it not reliable? Many women are in very happy polygamous marriages. So who are we to judge that they are wrong or unhappy or being demeaned?

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

Does one get punished if they don't have children?

No, not at all. People are just encouraged to have children, as Moses encouraged people to go out and populate the world.

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

If it is discouraged then people should try to avoid it and advance their societies so it doesn't have to come to that but I don't see them doing that excluding the countries that have outlawed it.

Egypt has not outlawed it and less than 3% still choose to live this way and every year less people choose to do it.

What do you mean advance their societies? That makes it sound like they are backward because some people choose a way of life you object to. Do you prefer the Western model of marital affairs or sleepng around?

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

Is it a commandment in Islam that one must marry?

No it is just encouraged. We do not allow fornication or adultery, so marriage is the answer to stay away from such sins. However, for those that don't want to marry that is their choice.

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

So at any one time there can be nearly 520,000 men who have more than one wife. That's a whole lot of people.

It is a lot of happy people, very few end up in this situation without choosing to do so.

Originally Posted by madeinrussia89

So is causing a divorce a wrongdoing in Islam?

No it is just discouraged. Islam allows divorce when it is necessary and that can just be as simple as you don't get on anymore. Obviously if you go off and have an affair then that is a wrongdoing. This is one reason that adultery is such a no-no in Islam, as it breaks families apart.

[bob x]

He also had 6 children with his first wife (with whom he was solely married for 25 years) so I doubt he was sterile.

Ah! I thought you were saying that the daughter he had late in life was the one and only child he ever had, which sounded very suspicious. What happened to that first batch of kids, anyhow?

[Muslimwoman]

Originally Posted by bob x

Ah! I thought you were saying that the daughter he had late in life was the one and only child he ever had, which sounded very suspicious. What happened to that first batch of kids, anyhow?

Sorry I didn't make myself very clear, I was trying to put over my reasoning in thinking that the Prophet (pbuh) was not the sexual animal that some would make him out to be.

His 2 sons to his first wife died (one in infancy and one age 2). His 4 daughters all grew to adulthood and the most important in Islamic history is Fatima (pbuh). She married Imam Ali (the fourth Caliph) and had 2 sons.

The Prophet described Fatima as: "The leader of all the ladies of Paradise." (Sahih al-Bukhari, vol. 4, p.819.)
"Fatima is a part of me, and he who makes her angry, makes me angry." (Sahih al-Bukhari, vol. 5, p. 61.)

She was the example for all Muslim women. You can hear Muslims say that the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) was the perfect example for a Muslim but of course he was a man, so how could he be the perfect example of how a woman should live? Fatima filled this role and was clearly quite fiesty. On the death of the Prophet she was denied her inheritance and she used her knowledge of the Quran to fight for her rights. That is quite an interesting piece of information historically because it shows just how quickly womens rights started to slide after the death of the Prophet.

His son by Maria also died in infancy.