Satan

[path_of_one]

I want to make it clear that I do not necessarily think that there are no evil spiritual entities, but rather that the OT scriptures do not clearly support a Satan with free will that is a fallen angel. I've read commentaries by Rabbis on the scriptures that Christians often quote as evidence of the Christian Satan, and it is very illuminating on the subject. Furthermore, the Satan we have in our minds today is also a result of Christianity expanding into Pagan Europe and demonizing their fertility gods such as Pan and Cerrunos (ever wonder why our image of Satan has horns and goat legs?). There's a lot more to Satan than just the modern Christian ideas, is what I'm getting at.

Now, is the Jewish concept that God is all-powerful and there is no evil demi-god-like entity battling Him right? Or is the modern Christian idea of a spiritual battle right? Or is it something different all together?

I would propose this, but of course to each his/her own:
* There is a Satan in the Jewish sense of an angel of adversary/temptation, that is here not to rule but to test us in our moral and spiritual fibre, because that allows spiritual growth.
* Jesus was really tempted by Satan.
* There are really evil spiritual entities with free will, but these are not angels. They can really attack people. It's up to the reader if they want to believe that Jesus was curing insanity and physical illnesses (which during his time was believed to be caused by demons, though we know now that it is chemical imbalances and other scientific causes) or driving out literal demons. Both are miracles.
* There may be a spiritual battle, but from what I've seen it's within each entity created with free will and is only on cosmic proportions because so many people are not effectively battling their own metaphoric demons, as it were. I think it's quite possible non-corporeal spirit entities also face this free will problem and some cave in just as we do. Cross-culturally, many many cultures of all kinds of religions believe in nature spirits, spirits from other realities, demons, ancestor spirits, etc. and these tend to be very much like humans in their capacity for doing good vs. evil.
* Christianity latched onto the Jewish idea of Satan and it combined with dualist religions like Zoroastrianism, and Satan was considered fallen and elevated to demi-god like status.
* As Christianity spread into Pagan areas, they adopted Pagan gods and goddesses into the religion (this is documented). Some, like Pan and Cerrunos, became demonized as an evil demi-god like Satan. Others, like Brighid, became saints and are still prayed to and honored today.
* Now, in the U.S., we are quite unaware of the Pagan origins of a lot of Christian belief and practice, because we are divorced from the place and indigenous religions of Europe. People may not know that there is a saint who was a dog, or that some saints were goddesses and gods, or that the Virgin Mary has replaced the "Queen of Heaven" or "Great Mother" goddesses in much of the world, or that Satan looks an awful lot like Pan.
* If Satan is, indeed, like he was in the Jewish Torah, are we not doing ourselves a great disservice by making him so powerful in our minds? Do we not give up some of our responsibility to change the world, chalking it up to Satanic influence but forgetting humans can overcome him?

By the way, the Church of Satan is very small in comparison to many other religions that are growing at an enormous rate, like neo-Paganism faiths. The CoS does indeed view Satan as a metaphor (completely) and members worship themselves, not any deity. The CoS was primarily a movement against Christian values they perceived to be undesirable (such as non-violence passivity towards enemies), and they adopted the symbol of Satan to make a statement. The CoS is also vehemently against Wicca and other positive, other-centered neo-Pagan magical faiths. The First Church of Satan, however, is an offshoot that does indeed worship Satan as a deity. They are vehemently against not only Christianity, but also (at least equally) the Church of Satan.

The interaction of these groups and their respective belief systems are a lot more complicated than most Christians realize. No offense, it's completely understandable because generally we are centered on our own religion and the very term "Church of Satan" means something particular to us. Indeed, Anton LaVey (the founder of CoS) counted on it. In interviews he said his greatest fear was that Christians would stop fearing him and his church, and they would become just one more organized religion. He created the symbols in the church specifically to invoke fear and disgust in Christian churches, and to gain attention from them. He's dead now, and us Christians are still giving him what he wants (and what his church wants) by thinking they are really a powerful movement and worshipping Satan...

I'm not saying Satan is a metaphor, or that there are no evil spirit entities, but rather that we may be lumping things we should be splitting, and recognize that an awful lot of the evil on this earth is because of us.

[earl]

Originally Posted by path_of_one

I want to make it clear that I do not necessarily think that there are no evil spiritual entities, but rather that the OT scriptures do not clearly support a Satan with free will that is a fallen angel. I've read commentaries by Rabbis on the scriptures that Christians often quote as evidence of the Christian Satan, and it is very illuminating on the subject. Furthermore, the Satan we have in our minds today is also a result of Christianity expanding into Pagan Europe and demonizing their fertility gods such as Pan and Cerrunos (ever wonder why our image of Satan has horns and goat legs?). There's a lot more to Satan than just the modern Christian ideas, is what I'm getting at.

Now, is the Jewish concept that God is all-powerful and there is no evil demi-god-like entity battling Him right? Or is the modern Christian idea of a spiritual battle right? Or is it something different all together?

I would propose this, but of course to each his/her own:
* There is a Satan in the Jewish sense of an angel of adversary/temptation, that is here not to rule but to test us in our moral and spiritual fibre, because that allows spiritual growth.
* Jesus was really tempted by Satan.
* There are really evil spiritual entities with free will, but these are not angels. They can really attack people. It's up to the reader if they want to believe that Jesus was curing insanity and physical illnesses (which during his time was believed to be caused by demons, though we know now that it is chemical imbalances and other scientific causes) or driving out literal demons. Both are miracles.
* There may be a spiritual battle, but from what I've seen it's within each entity created with free will and is only on cosmic proportions because so many people are not effectively battling their own metaphoric demons, as it were. I think it's quite possible non-corporeal spirit entities also face this free will problem and some cave in just as we do. Cross-culturally, many many cultures of all kinds of religions believe in nature spirits, spirits from other realities, demons, ancestor spirits, etc. and these tend to be very much like humans in their capacity for doing good vs. evil.
* Christianity latched onto the Jewish idea of Satan and it combined with dualist religions like Zoroastrianism, and Satan was considered fallen and elevated to demi-god like status.
* As Christianity spread into Pagan areas, they adopted Pagan gods and goddesses into the religion (this is documented). Some, like Pan and Cerrunos, became demonized as an evil demi-god like Satan. Others, like Brighid, became saints and are still prayed to and honored today.
* Now, in the U.S., we are quite unaware of the Pagan origins of a lot of Christian belief and practice, because we are divorced from the place and indigenous religions of Europe. People may not know that there is a saint who was a dog, or that some saints were goddesses and gods, or that the Virgin Mary has replaced the "Queen of Heaven" or "Great Mother" goddesses in much of the world, or that Satan looks an awful lot like Pan.
* If Satan is, indeed, like he was in the Jewish Torah, are we not doing ourselves a great disservice by making him so powerful in our minds? Do we not give up some of our responsibility to change the world, chalking it up to Satanic influence but forgetting humans can overcome him?

By the way, the Church of Satan is very small in comparison to many other religions that are growing at an enormous rate, like neo-Paganism faiths. The CoS does indeed view Satan as a metaphor (completely) and members worship themselves, not any deity. The CoS was primarily a movement against Christian values they perceived to be undesirable (such as non-violence passivity towards enemies), and they adopted the symbol of Satan to make a statement. The CoS is also vehemently against Wicca and other positive, other-centered neo-Pagan magical faiths. The First Church of Satan, however, is an offshoot that does indeed worship Satan as a deity. They are vehemently against not only Christianity, but also (at least equally) the Church of Satan.

The interaction of these groups and their respective belief systems are a lot more complicated than most Christians realize. No offense, it's completely understandable because generally we are centered on our own religion and the very term "Church of Satan" means something particular to us. Indeed, Anton LaVey (the founder of CoS) counted on it. In interviews he said his greatest fear was that Christians would stop fearing him and his church, and they would become just one more organized religion. He created the symbols in the church specifically to invoke fear and disgust in Christian churches, and to gain attention from them. He's dead now, and us Christians are still giving him what he wants (and what his church wants) by thinking they are really a powerful movement and worshipping Satan...

I'm not saying Satan is a metaphor, or that there are no evil spirit entities, but rather that we may be lumping things we should be splitting, and recognize that an awful lot of the evil on this earth is because of us.

I see it this way as well. the "desert fathers" of the early Christian church always framed their spiritual journey in terms of demons & spiritual warfare as well, but often in doing so were speaking of their internal battle with their "passions."

"Abba Poemen said of Abba John the Dwarf that he had prayed to God to take his paasions away from him so that he might become free from care. He went and told an old man this; 'I find myself in peace, without an enemy,' he said. The old man said to him, 'Go beseech God to stir up warfare so that you may regain the affliction and humility that you used to have, for it is by warfare that the soul makes progress.' So, he besought God and when warefare came, he no longer prayed that it might be taken away, but said, 'Lord, give me strength for the fight.'"

As for me, unfortunately, don't think i'll ever have to worry re running out of afflictions and personal "demons-" St. Anthony of the Desert likewise spoke of how he saw that until his last breath he had to always deal with them. Take care, Earl

[ambassador]

Satan is the Greatest deciever. Here is an excert from a book written by Joe crews based on the Bible. Anyone interested in reading it here is the link: http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/Read_Media.asp?ID=657

!Remember he is the author of confusion

"How does Satan orchestrate his program to make even the most religious people sin? Before we look at his two most effective strategies, we need to understand that we are dealing with the greatest counterfeiter who ever lived. As the archdeceiver he often employs a mixture of good and evil to accomplish his ends. He doesn't even mind utilizing the Scriptures if it can serve to achieve an ultimate end.

Satan did not write the Bible, but he was looking over the shoulders of the men who did, memorizing every bit of it. And he has often quoted texts, as he did to Jesus in the wilderness of temptation. In that instance he actually quoted the Psalmist correctly that angels would protect from even dashing a foot against a stone. But take note that he misapplied the text by urging Jesus to presumptuously leap from the pinnacle and trust the angels to save Him. This clever ploy of distorting Scripture forms the basis of the two special tricks which Satan uses to make Christians disobey God's law. The first argument goes like this: Since the Bible says "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life," the most important thing in order to be saved is to obey the law. Revelation 22:14. If we can just do that well enough, in every detail, we will qualify for eternal life."

[paradisaic]

Ah, yes, interesting. But if Evil Inclination were truly what Satan is, how would you explain his taking over the body of a serpent? Truly, a serpent, unendowed with reason and wit, wouldn't be able to harbor Evil Inclination.

[dauer]

If a serpent is unendowed with reason and wit, how does that inhibit having an evil inclination?

[ambassador]

In respose to the reference of the snake. Keep in mind that up util this point the world was without sin.

Now forever, The snake would be a symbolic reminder of the Fall of man.
Everytime man would see a serpent he would be reminded that it was the instrument by which he fell into sin. Man was to have dominion and rule over the animal kingdom and yet it was through an animal that he was led astray! That tells man something about the seriousness of the original Fall and also about how culpable he really is.

The snake would be a symbolic reminder of Satan’s future destruction.

The snake imagery is picked up in Genesis 3:15 when the snake is told: ‘he the woman’s seed will crush your head and you will strike his heel.’ The snake was cursed to crawl on the ground and therefore susceptible to man’s heel crushing its head (this vulnerability is a direct result of Satan’s sin). This is a foreshadowing of what will really happen to Satan someday.

In addition, the curse upon the physical snake was reflective of the actual curse upon Satan himself: crawling low on the belly was a mark of deep degradation (Lev 11:42) and eating dust was also a sign of despair (Micah 7:17). All these factors combine to form very vivid symbolism of what awaits Satan in the end.

Animals were culpable when used as instruments of sin. Interestingly, elsewhere in the OT when an animal is an instrument in sins against nature he is to be slain along with the man (Lev 20:15,16). Is that because there is real blame and guilt on the part of the animal? No, but because the instrument is often broken/punished along with the actual perpetrator.

God has the right to curse an animal in a specific way due to the sin of another; He did that very thing in regard to Adam’s sin. When Adam sinned and threw all of creation into chaos, God cursed the ground so that it produced thorns and he was told to til the feilds. Was the ground to blame? Was it actually guilty? No, but it was rightly punished due to the sin of another and is a symbolic reminder to us of that very sin.

Can you imagine a world with no death, thorns, pain, disease, difficulty, struggle for survival? The world before the Fall was radically different. So, there is no difficulty in imagining the serpent as changing to crawl on its belly even though we are not totally sure what he was like before.

[Abogado del Diablo]

Originally Posted by ambassador

Now forever, The snake would be a symbolic reminder of the Fall of man.

The snake would be a symbolic reminder of Satan’s future destruction.

Yet, we read in Numbers 21 that the snake shortly thereafter is transformed into the symbol of God's healing, as it is held aloft upon a pole for the healing of the Israelites beset by God's judgment. In fact, this story from Numbers is often taken as a bit of Christ symbology. Interesting . . .

[Abogado del Diablo]

And to add a truly bizarre twist to the whole affair, we furhter read in 2 Kings 18 that the Messianic King Hezekiah, centuries after Moses, has to smash this healing symbol apart because the healing symbol of the snake upon a pole has become, in and of itself, the object of worship to idolatrous Israelites.

[ambassador]

Ok, lets look at numbers: Numbers 21 4-9

4- They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea, to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way;

5- they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the desert? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!"

6-Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died.
7- The people came to Moses and said, "We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away from us." So Moses prayed for the people.
8-The LORD said to Moses, "Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live."9-So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived.

So you see GOD sent the snakes to punish the people who had sinned. This is in keeping with the historical symbol of the snake.
Then God says to Moses to make a Bronze snake and if the people look at it they will live. So in the end GOD shows his ultimate control.

[ambassador]

Yes, this is true. But you have to understand that the isarealites had to realize that the power was not in statues or bronze images, but in God. God can choose whatever instrument he will. But the problem came when they began to look to idols rather than GOD. So you see they made the stutue itself a symbol of faith, that is why it was destroyed.

[Abogado del Diablo]

Nevertheless, the serpent is both the instrument of God's judgment and the symbol through which God's healing occurs. It's an interesting paradox. And you are correct. They made the serpent on the pole, upon which those who looked were healed, a symbol of faith. That is why it was destroyed.