Santa V God

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

This deals with what spirituality actually is.

Maybe we need to start with a definition of spirituality?

I very much doubt there are many who consider themselves spiritually inclined would equate their spirituality with an isolated mystical experience.

One could reasonably argue that the spiritual meaning of these experiences are developed in the course of the individual's life long after the experiences and that the meaning is an aspect of the person's spirituality as part of their experiential reality and motive force for their actions.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

especially in Western cultures that do not value their holy men and women and do not support them.

Ohhh yeh the great cathedrals of Europe built themselves!!

Emphasis... glad you are coming round to agreeing with me on that one

tao

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

I think some people become monks after they reach Nibbanna. Being a monk does not appear to be a prerequisite. I suspect there are many whose life circumstances do not allow them to live as monks, especially in Western cultures that do not value their holy men and women and do not support them.

I just thought that was the "deal", so to speak (rather crudely), in the Hinayana way: the laity gain merit by giving alms and access to teachings and services from the monks (and hope to be reborn as monks); while the monks crack on with their studies and practice towards arahantship.

I'm hazy on the details. Hell, I'm hazy full stop.

s.

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Snoopy

.... in the Hinayana way: the laity gain merit by giving alms and access to teachings and services from the monks (and hope to be reborn as monks); while the monks crack on with their studies and practice towards arahantship.

Maybe.

Descriptions I have seen of Nibbana typically emphasize detachment, impulse control, emotional and mental discipline, and conscientious living (right intention and right action). It is identified with the elimination of suffering by overcoming delusion, craving, attachment/aversion, and negative emotions

i.e. , absolute extinction of that life-affirming will manifested as Greed, Hate, Delusion, and convulsively clinging to existence, and therewith also the ultimate and absolute deliverance from all future rebirth, old age, disease and death, from all suffering and misery.

ww.triplegem.plus.com/glosary2.htm#N

To get back to your original question about Nibbana being attained in this life "as long as one is a monk in this life." There is nothing in the above description of Nibbana to suggest that it involves a career path as a monk.

As far as choice of occupation or means of livelihood, I have seen Buddhist injunctions on that but they are fairly general. They emphasize virtue and wholesome conduct, like honesty. Real basic.

Just a thought: If the practice of generosity was a component for reaching Nibbana for you, I would think you would probably seek new opportunities to be generous because that would probably be your path.

I can't see how being a monk would be a condition for realizing Nibbana. I also don't see it as a condition for "keeping" the state. Logically, how you can you "lose" the reality at hand - i.e., "unconditioned dhamma" or an aspect of everlasting and indestructible "amatadhatu" or deathless element?

Being a monk does not appear to be important in the Manjushri wisdom literature. The only reference I find to monks in Kunzan Pelden's text relates to foolish monks who chase after stones and whose status of being ordained means nothing.

[China Cat Sunflower]

Originally Posted by SG

I had heard of the concept of God as a child, and I had heard of the concept of atheism as a child. However, I received no conditioning towards God belief as a child, but did receive conditioning towards atheism via the scientific literature I read as a child. If I understand your hypothesis correctly, my childhood conditioning should have swung me towards atheism. However, I'm not an atheist.

Originally Posted by Tao

Then you do not understand my hypothesis correctly. That relies on the overwhelming cultural acceptance of belief. If you had grown up in a, (non-existent), culture where 99% of people were atheistic and the remaining 1% were viewed as misguided and delusional then it is highly unlikely you would become religious.

I grew up in an overwhelmingly religious household. How did I get to where I am today? I think that I always wanted to feel that I was gifted and special. I wanted there to be something bigger that connected everything and made me important to the universe. Looking back, I was always constructing my own legend. I think that probably everyone wants to be cool and magical. Everyone wants to feel important that way. It's been the hardest thing for me to admit that it was just me pumping myself up all along. An intellectually mature person shouldn't need that kind of crutch.

I really did want it though. I was hoping I had some sort of magical powers. Just something small would be fine. I fancied myself some kind of shaman or something. I even thought I was channeling space dudes for a while. I had a conversion experience and became a Pentecostal for a while. It was all just cowboys and Indians, man. I just believed sh!t that I heard so long as it propped up the invention of myself that I was engaged in constructing.

That's my story.

Chris

[Tao_Equus]

Hi Chris,

Just as we build a house and furnish it for a combination of protection from the elements, safe comfortable retreat and utilitarian stability I think the tendency in people is to construct a mental building for the psyche. I think it entirely natural, a safe place is as important for the mind as the body.

As Paladin put it earlier in his Steve Harrison quote:

Unless we reside within a belief system, we cannot find the criteria for failure. A life without authority puts us in direct contact with the effect of our life, our actions, our thoughts and feelings. Without the screen of belief we have direct perception of the world in which we exist.

I cannot say what has led you to face the underlying truths but my guess would be disillusionment and an awareness that such deeply held beliefs can disintegrate in one paradigm then they are all unsafe. Not everybody has the mental attitude to go it alone, and I do not mean that with any condescension at all, and when a crisis of faith hits they do not say that faith does not work but that they have failed to pick the correct one or that their faith was incomplete. They blame themselves and this is no accident. Every faith starts with the premise that people are flawed imperfect creatures and has numerous structures to repeat/condition this concept. Whether it be original sin or a quest for enlightenment it is always stated we are incomplete. The realisation that we are complete and imperfect and that there is no outside agency is a difficult one for the psyche. 1000s of years of cultural conditioning have given us a well developed acceptance that we cannot help our imperfections except through submission to higher authority. Dropping that means taking away the safety net and abandoning the comfort that abdication of personal responsibility gives.

Life is random and has no sense of what is or is not fair or just. A tornado is just as likely to sweep up a child or pious man as a murderer or burglar. The imposition of the various phrases and sayings in the worlds religions attempt to bring solace and ulterior design rather than face the facts. The child is guaranteed a place in heaven as an 'innocent', the pious man has earned it and the murderer will burn for all eternity. It is a relic of our ancient ideas of supernatural causation still alive and well despite our elevated knowledge. It is easy for the individual to dismiss this as maybe having some vague truth or none but it is its deep effect on the psyche that our helplessness is somehow structured and for a reason that makes religious thought so attractive and compelling and enduring. And on a personal level it is not only harmless but often beneficial as a coping strategy. When institutionalised though it is too easily manipulated, by building up one credulous notion you pave the way for more. This is why original sin is at the very start, it is the foundation of religious thought. Break them down so you can build them up again as you want them. Religion is nothing but the selling of a product for the psyche.

tao

[China Cat Sunflower]

Hi Tao,

It pleases me that you were able to understand what I was thrashing toward. I don't know that I was ever disillusioned by or with religion. It's more that I became disillusioned with the craven nature of my own self-worth mechanisms. It's hard to look up your own skirt.

Chris

[Netti-Netti]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Religion is nothing but the selling of a product for the psyche.

Hello Tao,

As you know, market research is able to assess the effectiveness of marketing strategies.

You have observed that: "We force our young kids to believe in Santa by our lies and by a multiplicity of cultural reinforcements. Is not belief in God exactly the same thing? ....1000s of years of cultural conditioning have given us a well developed acceptance that we cannot help our imperfections except through submission to higher authority."

So, Tao, what data can you share that tells us something about the anthropological/cultural track record for the ongoing efforts to bamboozle the masses with religious fictions like peddling "human mythos" off as Divine Truth combined with "the imposition of structured or ritualised reinforcements of the power structures in every society" and the deliberate and systematic "religious indoctrination of successive generations"??

Given your emphasis on social learning and cultural transmission mechanisms, I would think that you'd expect the indoctrination and reinforcement efforts to have been highly successful -- if for no other reason than that they are so pervasive as to be the very fabric of social existence.

[seattlegal]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Then you do not understand my hypothesis correctly. That relies on the overwhelming cultural acceptance of belief. If you had grown up in a, (non-existent), culture where 99% of people were atheistic and the remaining 1% were viewed as misguided and delusional then it is highly unlikely you would become religious.

I dunno, Tao. I'd likely become part of the misguided religious counter-culture, if that were the case. {Or, perhaps a hermit. I'd most likely withdraw from society.}

[Alex P]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

Then you do not understand my hypothesis correctly. That relies on the overwhelming cultural acceptance of belief. If you had grown up in a, (non-existent), culture where 99% of people were atheistic and the remaining 1% were viewed as misguided and delusional then it is highly unlikely you would become religious.

Seeing, since mankind has been ere, religion has aslo been ere... I have a feeling this will stay as a hypothesis.

[Ciel]

Originally Posted by Alex P

Seeing, since mankind has been ere, religion has aslo been ere... I have a feeling this will stay as a hypothesis.

And even....... before humanity........ God.

And even .......after humanity......... God.

And in the space between...... in the silence beyond cultural forms...God.

There is always a peace passing understanding.


- c -

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Maybe we need to start with a definition of spirituality?

I very much doubt there are many who consider themselves spiritually inclined would equate their spirituality with an isolated mystical experience.

One could reasonably argue that the spiritual meaning of these experiences are developed in the course of the individual's life long after the experiences and that the meaning is an aspect of the person's spirituality as part of their experiential reality and motive force for their actions.

Ok. I define spirituality as the belief or sense that there are powers or forces or agency around us that are intelligent and purposeful. Anything to add or subtract from that?

Spiritual/mystical experiences have been surveyed and it seems around half the population claim them and this rises amongst the elderly. The most common time to have such an experience is at a time of stress, change or bereavement loss. Amongst the elderly bereavement loss accounts for the majority of experiences. As far as the shrinks are concerned to have the occasional mystical experience is well within the normal range of human experience. But when one gets them with regular frequency then psychosis is suspected. We are all adults here and I would be very surprised if any of us has managed to get through life without some stressful situations affecting us. So we can all testify to the truth that the range and depth of our emotions becomes amplified at such times. In addition to this studies have also concluded that an individual with a creative personality is far more likely to have a mystical experience than a pragmatic thinker. This was something I was particularly pleased to read as it fits nicely with my own observation of friends down the years.

From A common thread underlying belief in the paranormal, creative personality, mystical experience and psychopathology. (Questia).
Creativity could be characterized as a process in which two or more preexisting elements--whether they be colors or forms, musical notes or words, or ideas in general--have been put into a relationship that is arrestingly unexpected, a relationship that may variously be regarded as aesthetically appealing, mind-expanding, interesting, and even useful, depending on the context. Creative personality consists of various personality characteristics which, to quote Davis, Peterson, and Farley (1974, p. 33), "regularly haunt the literature describing the creative person." Three studies have examined the relationship between paranormal belief and creative personality, and all found that persons with stronger belief in the paranormal tend to have more of the characteristics of a creative person: Joesting and Joesting (1969) found this to be true in their studies using the Torrance Creative Motivation Inventory (Torrance, 1963); Davis et al. (1974) consistently found this in their data, using Torrance's (1971) "What Kind of Person Are You?" questionnaire and his Personal-Social Motivation Inventory, as well as ratings of actual creativity; and Moon (1975) found that visual arts students showed significantly higher belief in ESP than did students in other disciplines. We therefore predicted that a corresponding relationship of this kind would also be observed in the present study.

I have up to now done little to differentiate the individual who seeks out spiritual enlightenment from those that are happy to accept it without much thought. People that come here for example would all fall into the first group. The seeking itself is a quantifiable factor, hence religious sayings such as "seek and ye shall find". The combined association of creative personality and seeking to explain the world in terms of mystical beliefs means that those that do so are predisposing themselves to reaching one conclusion. They create the reality they define. This bias leads to an inability to accept alternative explanations as there is a considerable creative investment that would be rendered meaningless, nobody like to think their efforts have been in vain.

I return now to the elderly who appear to experience an increase in the incidence of mystical experience. Here a combination of degenerative brain disorders and the increasing stress of contemplating and experiencing death of people they have known a lifetime leads to a disassociation from reality. People of all ages in the west claim that they have had some experience of seeing a vision of someone recently departed, this goes from about 35% in the for people up to 40 yrs old to 65% for those over 70. (from same paper linked in first part of post 259). But, and this is crucial, this is a western phenomena where we have an established resurrection mythos. In Tibetan culture, for example, to see the soul of a dead relative is unheard of. There they believe that at the moment of death the soul is already awakening in its next incarnation. So this demonstrates that some of the deepest held beliefs are not universal but are in fact built on the social paradigms of the respective culture. Evidence that makes a compelling case for belief to be a creative reflection of the social thinking of culture and not people tuning in to universal truth.

tao

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Netti-Netti

Hello Tao,

As you know, market research is able to assess the effectiveness of marketing strategies.

Yes, and indeed I would state that in my opinion there is no devious trick of the advertiser that is not to be found in the worlds holy books. By studying the psychology of religious doctrine you are studying the sale of something that does not exist. If you can sell nothing, you can sell anything.

tao

[Snoopy]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

They create the reality they define. This bias leads to an inability to accept alternative explanations as there is a considerable creative investment that would be rendered meaningless, nobody like to think their efforts have been in vain.

Aye, that's true of us all

In Tibetan culture... the soul

Are you sure?

There they believe that at the moment of death the soul is already awakening in its next incarnation.

Bardo.


s.

[Snoopy]

Tao, me dear mate, if we all become atheists this site will lose its raison d'être. Where will we all go?

s.