Saint Raphael

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by kenod

So salvation for you is a work in progress, not a spiritual event?

Is "salvation" the same as being "born again" (John 3)

Yes, salvation is the same as being born again into Christ. However, it is also noted that salvation's rewards can be lost, hence why I believe Post is stating that it is a work in progress. Once saved, one can't just sit on their laurels (or lack of) and expect the riches of heaven to be placed at their feet.

Though to be saved is an act of Grace, building the rewards in heaven takes work. The parable of the "Good and faithful servant" and "Good steward of the Master's wealth", tend to bear that out.

v/r

Q

[kenod]

"Hence, from these three clues, the twenty-four elders must represent the church saints."

I think the number 24 must be significant ... the most logical conclusion is that it represents the 12 OT patriarchs, and the 12 apostles from the NT ... thus symbolically representing all believers. And who are the “living creatures” … can you pray to them too?

Where did the church get the authority to add to the number 24?
Where did it get the authority to decide the criteria for a "saint"?
Where did it get the authority to tell us to talk to people who have died? (only one man in the Bible did that and he used a witch. 1 Sam 28).

[Quahom1]

[quote=kenod]


I think the number 24 must be significant ... the most logical conclusion is that it represents the 12 OT patriarchs, and the 12 apostles from the NT ... thus symbolically representing all believers. And who are the “living creatures” … can you pray to them too?

Where did the church get the authority to add to the number 24?

The older term for saint is martyr, meaning witness, or more specifically, witness for God. However, as the word martyr took on more and more the meaning of "one who died for the Faith," the term saint, meaning holy, became more common to describe the whole of Christian witnesses, both martyrs and confessors. The Catholic Church recognizes that it does not, in fact, make anyone a saint. Rather, it recognizes a saint.

Where did it get the authority to decide the criteria for a "saint"?

A saint is a term used to refer to someone who is a holy person. The term comes from the New Testament, where the Greek word "hagios" ("holy" or "saint") is used to refer to those in the church. This was translated by St. Jerome in the Latin Vulgate as "sanctus," which also means "holy." Over the years it has grown to be used and accepted in other Christian, religious, and even secular contexts, to refer to those who are considered to be exceptionally virtuous or glorified in heaven. Hence a "saint" (cont. with sinner) is a (usually deceased) person whose life is regarded by a community as a good example, and their life story is remembered for sake of inspiring others. It is important to note that Saints are not "worshipped" according to strict Christian terminology. Worship is reserved for God alone, whereas Saints are venerated (see veneration), respected, and viewed as role models.

Where did it get the authority to tell us to talk to people who have died? (only one man in the Bible did that and he used a witch. 1 Sam 28).

Where did you get the authority to pray for your family? Same exact place that we all can ask the saints to pray for us (since they are not dead but alive in Christ, unless of course you do not believe they are alive, then you shouldn't pray to the "dead saints")...


Doesn’t it say as clear as day here, that no one can get in-between man and God, and by praying to saints, are Catholics violating what it so clearly teaches here? Well, in the first place commons sense tells us that if the Catholic position violates it, so does the Protestant practice of praying for others. After all, Protestants as much as Catholics always intervene by praying not only for themselves, but other people, all the time. When one asks them to pray for them, Do they say to one another “How dare you pray for one another all, there is only one mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ!!!” No, Protestants as well as Catholics intercede for others all the time, and it is especially urged in the Bible. When Catholics pray to Saints, they are only asking them to pray for them. Even the immediate context of 1 Timothy 2 shows the need for Christians to pray for others, exactly as Catholicism teaches. Let us look at the immediately preceding verses of 1 Tim. 2:

1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men,
2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.
3This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

So in the immediate context Paul urges people to pray for others. It is good and pleasing to God that people intercede on the behalf of others. So obviously this text does not mean people should not be able to intercede for others. When we pray to Saints, we are only asking them to pray for us. Next, can Saints pray for us in heaven? What does the bible say?

Are there any witnesses in heaven of us? Paul tells us:

Hebrews 12:1 - Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great A CLOUD OF WITNESSES, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.

Do we come only to God or do we also come to the assembly of Saints in heaven as well?

Hebrews 12:22 But YE ARE COME UNTO mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 12:23 To the general assembly and CHURCH OF THE FIRSTBORN, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, AND TO THE SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT, 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks more graciously than the blood of Abel.
Paul says yes.


Dude, I ask for saints to pray for me, daily, and my family, and people at CR, and at work...

I'm not praying to a stone. I'm thinking of someone who went before me and did great things in God's grace. I'm asking them to ask God not to forget me.

v/r

Q

[BlaznFattyz]

praying for somebody shows an act of love towards man, but praying to somebody shows that person has authority to answer them or to intercede on a spiritual level.

The truth is Jesus christ is our only intercessor,
and saints all all those that are born again in faith thru jesus christ.