Saddam Is Dead

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

"Of course, the United States is not vulnerable to the violent, total closing down of the system that followed Mussolini's march on Rome or Hitler's roundup of political prisoners. Our democratic habits are too resilient, and our military and judiciary too independent, for any kind of scenario like that.
Rather, as other critics are noting, our experiment in democracy could be closed down by a process of erosion."

Education begins in the home and in the schools. With fifty percent of American homes divorced and or dysfunctional, and the shool systems being run by a union clearly counter to any studies of constitutional, or historical merit, nor of a willingness to instill a basic semblance of moral principles, I'm not suprised. The problem goes much deeper than the actual government, but it is easier to blame than society as a whole.

In short, the populace is giving away their freedoms and don't even know it, because they haven't been taught what it is they are supposed to have.

How to boil a frog in water without him knowing it...? Put him in a pot of cool water and slowly turn up the heat...

Oddly enough Q, I agree almost completely! And the qualifier "almost" in this case isn't even worth starting a bicker about. We seem to be on the same team here.

Peace,
P

[wil]

Originally Posted by Sunny

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence", Donald Rumsfeld.

Originally Posted by Q

(lol) five hundred cannisters of Sarin/Mustard gas discovered in a hidden stockpile buried in the Iraqi desert, right near where the fighter jets were originally buried, (enough to take out New York, Washington DC, Portsmouth, VA or 35 million people...not bad for a nation of 25 million people)...guess Rumsfield was right...
Question is (biblically), how much of something must there be, before the world considers it "something"? Especially when we were told there is nothing to begin with?

I don't know your background on CBR. But I can assure you, a nerve agent or chemical agent, even if simply blown up with a grenade, would cause thousands of deaths in a major city, within minutes. How do I know? It one of my specific jobs in my occupation to protect against.

One pin drop of Sarin on skin, is lethal to a human.

Iraq is a very BIG desert (about the size of Texas)...with lot's of burying space...a terrorist's cornucopia...

YouTube - WMD's Found In Iraq=

So as not to derail the Jesus thread I requoted info over here. First seems Rumsfeld quote is along the lines of your response Q, however it also appears the 500 cannisters were pre 1991, and were empty (trace amounts) and inert, depleted, yes...if those cannisters were full...if they were ever full...damage might have been done....

Yes we know Saddam had a program as we supported it...

August, 2002, Col. Walter P. Lang, a senior defense intelligence officer at the time, explained that D.I.A. and C.I.A. officials "were desperate to make sure that Iraq did not lose" to Iran. "The use of gas on the battlefield by the Iraqis was not a matter of deep strategic concern," he said. One veteran said, that the Pentagon "wasn't so horrified by Iraq's use of gas." "It was just another way of killing people _ whether with a bullet or phosgene, it didn't make any difference."

and we know what Bush stated...

Here's what Bush said: "Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent." - State of the Union Address – 1/28/2003

While I agree with Rumsfeld, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...the fact of the matter is 500 empty cannisters from 1991 does not equate to 500 tons that encouraged the American public and congress to go to war...er...pre-emptive strike....I don't believe congress and the US would not have agreed to go over for a 'regime' change or to
instill democracy or to create a civil war, or to provide an Al Queda testing and proving ground. We were convinced to go due to eminent threat, we were told about the nuclear buy which we know now they knew was a lie before they told us...

Yes he buried old planes in the desert and we know not why, yes he wasn't an exemplary individual like the leaders of Rowanda, Syria, North Korea, Nigeria, Myanmar....but the facts are we were still hoodwinked into agreeing to take part in loosing thousands of men, injuring tens of thousands, eliminating hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's, and throwing that entire state into turmoil....yes we've got running 3,000 of the 13,000 schools that were operating before the war, and yes we've got almost 60% of the water and sewer back running that was operational before the US assistance...and yes the university of Bagdad is operating at 6% of its former capacity....all in a few short years for only half a trillion dollars...(er...one thousand times the original estimate congress was told and counting...one 1000 times more...picture someone telling you the bill for your auto repair or addition on your house is 1000 times the estimate...oh and it still isn't right...and oh the original problem wasn't what I said it was)

Some may think we are getting our monies worth and it is worth the blood of our soldiers...I just can't see it that way.

[Pathless]

Ah, the old Iraq card again.

Here's some information that may be relevant:

May 8, 2007--Majority of Iraqi Lawmakers Now Reject Occupation

I think no matter what we think or our army or our Commander Guy, it would be good of us as citizens of the global village to respect the wishes of the Iraqi people. Have we liberated them only to impose martial law and a perpetual oil and economic drain, or are we actually going to respect their wishes for soveigrenty?

April 17, 2006--Dr. Dahlia Wasfi Speaks at Iraq Forum

I forget if I've linked to this here before. It's worth watching for a non-partisan opinion, one that seems to me close to the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people.

[Quahom1]

Pre 1991, Ok, But Saddam said he had none. Empty? No they weren't. Two were ruptured and half empty, the rest still intact, and had to be neutralized via HAZMAT procedures. It will be interesting to see how many more cache's of "forgotton" CBR material we may or may not stumble upon.

I'm kinda black and white when it comes to CBR. Either you got it and say so, or you don't and say so, or you say "I don't know if there is anymore" (of course that would raise the hair on the back of anyone's neck if the leader of a nation didn't know whether he/she had bad juice or not...).

Saddam said, he didn't have any, and it was none of our business if he did. (Pretty stupid when a country is gearing up to come busting through your soveriegn territory, and already tagged your butt once before, for being arrogant and hostile towards others, I should think).

The man was in a position to negotiate in good faith with the world, but instead went blustery and half cocked. Not very bright.

Ghadafi of Libya was smarter. He said his country (and government) could not handle the butt whoopin' they were about to get, so he declared his country "transparent" and invited teams in to "help" him get rid of the bad ju ju he had, and promised (and carried out his intent), to turn over a new leaf...he is still in power, and nobody is breathing down his neck or threatening to bust his country up...

In short he said he was sorry, and the US backed right down quick as you please. Even began diplomatic relations again. (All the things you think should be done, were, done...and not a shot fired).

Yemen, same way (which was a surprise to most of the west). Saudi Arabia decided to start cleaning their own house.

Back to Iraq. Not only did Saddam bury his planes (we know why), but he sent most of the rest of his Air Force to Iran (after the kill ratio reached 200 to 0). He actually thought his T-55 Soviet Tanks could beat British Bradleys and American Abrams A-1s in a battle...("Mother of all tank battles", I believe was his quote). More like a killing zone. He had oil set on fire in the battle fields so that the smoke would confuse the coalition. The only one's confused were his own tank commanders, who could only see with the naked eye. The coalition used cryo optics to look right through the smoke, and could pick the Iraq mechanized off like shooting fish in a barrel.

He was even warned to withdraw his tank divisions (before a shot was fired), but laughed.

The only troops he had that were at par with the west, were the Red Guard...but there weren't enough of them. The rest were conscripts who didn't want to be there in the first place.

1991 was an eye opener for alot of people (especially the Russians, French and Chinese), who watched the lopsided battle with morbid fascination. Their best equipment was trashed within days (not weeks or months).

I will point out something here. The US is not into the "scorched earth" policy of war. We neutralize the situation then attempt to help rebuild...(I'm telling you from first hand knowledge, and second hand knowledge from familials. We're trying to rebuild the Iraqi infrastructure, but our efforts get blown up before we can even get them online and running, and that is where our people are dying).

This has been thwarted by people who do not want Iraq to get back on its own two feet. The majority of civilian casualties over the past 5 years, is due to insurgents. We aren't killing the thousands of Iraqis lost over the years, their own kind ARE KILLING THEM. We die trying to stop this madness!

True, we are once again playing world Policemen (which I absolutely loathe), but then the UN isn't exactly up to the task, and I don't see a "coalition" of Arab states offering to step in (they want no part of it). I don't even see the 25% of the French Muslims stepping up and demanding that their "country" come in to assist (maybe that will change soon). China is more than happy to let the US do all the leg work (no skin off their nose). Russia can barely contain the disgruntled within their sphere of influence, so they're not keen on stepping in. Iran would like nothing more than to recreate the Persian state (with them as the leader).

I mean, you want to look at the facts right? So let's look at all of the facts. The US has not much of a ways or means to force energy corporations to diversify (making you and me less dependent on fossil fuel). One reason is because the likes of you and me demand fuel for our convenience of life. And the energy corporations are making a killing on the profits from the energy supplies they provide to us now.

When, for example, are you going to tell your boss you can't work for him anymore because the cost of fuel exceeds your willingness to pay? $4.00 per gallon? $5.00 per gallon? $6.00? Are you going to back off on your quality of life, or your current standard of living?

The second part of the problem is that the west is considered by the rest of the world to be living too high off the hog (too much middle class influence thwarting what the well heeled and affluent want to do), so the aim is to lower the majority of the middle class down a notch or six.

If I can get you to simply worry about making ends meet, I won't have to worry about you voicing your angst, as to what trees I cut down, or what land I strip mine, because you won't have time to do so...

Forgive my analogy here, but I think it appropriate:

In the US Air Force, there are the enlisted personnel, and the Officer Corps. There used to be a Warrant Officer Corps (prior enlisted who are commissioned and given a rank of warrant officer), they usually exceeded the number of Officers, hence a great deal of influence overall. In the Air Force, however, the officers did not want to have to deal with "junior ranked/senior experienced" people who had an eye out for the enlisted, as well as being as capable (if not more so) then their O type counterparts, and who had an attitude that wasn't intimidated by senior rank and file. In short, Warrants called a spade a spade.

So the Airforce did away with the Warrant corps. (they got rid of the strong middle class). They are the only service to have done so by the way.

See how this whole thing can spiral up and out and down and out Wil? There is so much more than what the media feeds the masses.

Causal factors only become "causal" when they are preceeded by contributing factors...

I'm running out of characters per post...

I look forward to your thoughts.

v/r

Joshua

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Ah, the old Iraq card again.

Here's some information that may be relevant:

May 8, 2007--Majority of Iraqi Lawmakers Now Reject Occupation

I think no matter what we think or our army or our Commander Guy, it would be good of us as citizens of the global village to respect the wishes of the Iraqi people. Have we liberated them only to impose martial law and a perpetual oil and economic drain, or are we actually going to respect their wishes for soveigrenty?

April 17, 2006--Dr. Dahlia Wasfi Speaks at Iraq Forum

I forget if I've linked to this here before. It's worth watching for a non-partisan opinion, one that seems to me close to the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people.

Wonder how you'd feel if some group was hell bent that you did exactly what they wanted, and another group was trying to stop that, so you could live as you wanted, and the government over you was as rotten as bad cheese...

[wil]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

When, for example, are you going to tell your boss you can't work for him anymore because the cost of fuel exceeds your willingness to pay? $4.00 per gallon? $5.00 per gallon? $6.00? Are you going to back off on your quality of life, or your current standard of living?

The second part of the problem is that the west is considered by the rest of the world to be living too high off the hog (too much middle class influence thwarting what the well heeled and affluent want to do), so the aim is to lower the majority of the middle class down a notch or six.

If I can get you to simply worry about making ends meet, I won't have to worry about you voicing your angst, as to what trees I cut down, or what land I strip mine, because you won't have time to do so...

Hear Here!

When will we revolt?? It won't be at $6 or even $10 a gallon...with the hidden tax (inflation) created by the federal (non-governmental banks you know) reserve we'll all just plod around and being buying homes for 1 million dollars, cars for $100k, and look at 10 buck gas as cheap...but remembering the good old days when it was below $3.

I remember 17 cents during a gas war in the 60's. (Gas war meant something different than it does today) I remember the first time I paid over a dollar... fifty cents to 2.50 is five times...five times 2 is 10....if my math isn't wrong we'll see $6 by 2015 and $10 by 2025....and we still won't revolt.

You are exactly right keep them in beer and circus....less than 40% of us vote...but we all know who is on American Idol...nobody watches the primary debates...to busy with Lost Heroes...and 24 hour Law and Order...

The question I have for you and yours (soldiers) didn't you swear to uphold the constitution against all enemies foriegn and domestic?? Doesn't that include the oligarchy? The patriot act, executive orders, 16th amendment, homeland security...all serving to dilute our rights and sell out our nation.

[Pathless]

I was going to reply to Q's dumbass question, but wil did it for me. Oh what the hell. My response won't be redundant.

Wonder how I would feel? I eff'n feel it everyday, Q. On a personal level and on a humanitarian level. All the g/d injustice in the world. Who are you supporting with your staunch-ass militarism? Your sons in harm's way out there in Iraq? Oh. Now it's personal? Huh.



Government rotten as bad cheese indeed. A stinky metaphor that applies exactly to the current political powers that be here in Amerikkka.

Originally Posted by wil

I remember 17 cents during a gas war in the 60's. (Gas war meant something different than it does today) I remember the first time I paid over a dollar... fifty cents to 2.50 is five times...five times 2 is 10....if my math isn't wrong we'll see $6 by 2015 and $10 by 2025....and we still won't revolt.

I hope I'm not here to live among such a society of joiners. Hell no. That's not the world I'll be living in in 2015, 2025. Damn!! I'll go research quantum physics in paperbacks and build a frickin' parallel world machine if I have to.

Originally Posted by wi

You are exactly right keep them in beer and circus....less than 40% of us vote...but we all know who is on American Idol...nobody watches the primary debates...to busy with Lost Heroes...and 24 hour Law and Order...

Bing! A society of ignorantly ill zombies, fed with fear, amused to death--as Neil Postman says.

The question I have for you and yours (soldiers) didn't you swear to uphold the constitution against all enemies foriegn and domestic?? Doesn't that include the oligarchy? The patriot act, executive orders, 16th amendment, homeland security...all serving to dilute our rights and sell out our nation.

Seriously Q. Do your national duty, dammit. We're all depending on you, which is what you want--isn't it? So make us proud, big boy.

Okay. I fully expect a slap on the wrist for my tone. Let me save y'all the trouble.

Owie!

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Pathless

I was going to reply to Q's dumbass question, but wil did it for me. Oh what the hell. My response won't be redundant.

Wonder how I would feel? I eff'n feel it everyday, Q. On a personal level and on a humanitarian level. All the g/d injustice in the world. Who are you supporting with your staunch-ass militarism? Your sons in harm's way out there in Iraq? Oh. Now it's personal? Huh.



Government rotten as bad cheese indeed. A stinky metaphor that applies exactly to the current political powers that be here in Amerikkka.



I hope I'm not here to live among such a society of joiners. Hell no. That's not the world I'll be living in in 2015, 2025. Damn!! I'll go research quantum physics in paperbacks and build a frickin' parallel world machine if I have to.



Bing! A society of ignorantly ill zombies, fed with fear, amused to death--as Neil Postman says.



Seriously Q. Do your national duty, dammit. We're all depending on you, which is what you want--isn't it? So make us proud, big boy.

Okay. I fully expect a slap on the wrist for my tone. Let me save y'all the trouble.

Owie!

I'm supposed to regard your post with any merit, when you call me a dumb ass? wow, you must think awfully high of yourself...

try a different tactic next time.

v/r

Joshua

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

The question I have for you and yours (soldiers) didn't you swear to uphold the constitution against all enemies foriegn and domestic?? Doesn't that include the oligarchy? The patriot act, executive orders, 16th amendment, homeland security...all serving to dilute our rights and sell out our nation.

You, "The people", haven't issued a recall of the current persons in government, due to incompetence or what ever (you did elect Pelosi as speaker of the house... that is a moronic maneuver if I ever saw one, doubly moronic since her position hasn't been challenged by "YOU THE PEOPLE".

We, the military, gave up certain rights, so that you can enjoy yours. One thing we can not do is voice opinion against our government. (for either, but I screwed that one up now didn't I... ).

That's your job...but you better have all the facts before you go making accusations. (in general, not directed at anyone person specifically).

There are 300 million people in the US...2.5 million of which are military. Do the math...

Not our job to change the government...it's yours.

That is the bottom line. Unfortunately it is not one that the majority of America wishes to accept. (well California did it, so maybe...)

v/r

Joshua

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I'm supposed to regard your post with any merit, when you call me a dumb ass? wow, you must think awfully high of yourself...

try a different tactic next time.

v/r

Joshua

Once again, fair enough. I'll stop making an ass of myself now.

The answers you have for these world scenarios are all military. They all seem to boil down to might makes right. As in:

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Back to Iraq. Not only did Saddam bury his planes (we know why), but he sent most of the rest of his Air Force to Iran (after the kill ratio reached 200 to 0). He actually thought his T-55 Soviet Tanks could beat British Bradleys and American Abrams A-1s in a battle...("Mother of all tank battles", I believe was his quote). More like a killing zone. He had oil set on fire in the battle fields so that the smoke would confuse the coalition. The only one's confused were his own tank commanders, who could only see with the naked eye. The coalition used cryo optics to look right through the smoke, and could pick the Iraq mechanized off like shooting fish in a barrel.

Are we supposed to be proud that our technology can take human lives better than anyone elses? That is just not the kind of world that I want to live in. Call me an idealist. I am. In all the military analysis, though, you conveniently overlook the infuriating fact that the United States has been quite active in setting much violence in motion throughout the world. In the name of "free markets" or affluence for American corporations, so many more people have died than Saddam Hussein ever killed--and that tyrant fraternized quite well with the powers that were in America right up until he stepped over the line in Kuwait. As has been pointed out over and over in this thread, the US was more than willing to support and supply Hussein's military adventures in Iran. Divide and conquer, anyone?

And when we start to look at Iran, we must realize that the United States, by supporting Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, created a situation that eventually led to Khomeni's sudden control of the country. If fat oil bastards hadn't been so horrified that the democratically elected Dr. Mohammed Mosaddeq nationalized the oil industry of Iran--so that the profits from the sale of oil would go to Iranian interests rather than corporations--Khomeni never would have happened.

We are meddlers, us Imperialist Americans. The much lauded founding fathers would be so pissed at us right now. Thomas Jefferson in particular had a lot of disturbing nightmares about the current state of things. Ol' Tom would be so disappointed in the asses we've become.

Peace,
Pathless

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Pathless

Once again, fair enough. I'll stop making an ass of myself now.

The answers you have for these world scenarios are all military. They all seem to boil down to might makes right. As in:



Are we supposed to be proud that our technology can take human lives better than anyone elses? That is just not the kind of world that I want to live in. Call me an idealist. I am. In all the military analysis, though, you conveniently overlook the infuriating fact that the United States has been quite active in setting much violence in motion throughout the world. In the name of "free markets" or affluence for American corporations, so many more people have died than Saddam Hussein ever killed--and that tyrant fraternized quite well with the powers that were in America right up until he stepped over the line in Kuwait. As has been pointed out over and over in this thread, the US was more than willing to support and supply Hussein's military adventures in Iran. Divide and conquer, anyone?

And when we start to look at Iran, we must realize that the United States, by supporting Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, created a situation that eventually led to Khomeni's sudden control of the country. If fat oil bastards hadn't been so horrified that the democratically elected Dr. Mohammed Mosaddeq nationalized the oil industry of Iran--so that the profits from the sale of oil would go to Iranian interests rather than corporations--Khomeni never would have happened.

We are meddlers, us Imperialist Americans. The much lauded founding fathers would be so pissed at us right now. Thomas Jefferson in particular had a lot of disturbing nightmares about the current state of things. Ol' Tom would be so disappointed in the asses we've become.

Peace,
Pathless

Now this, I can work with. Excellent points of contention here. Your concerns are not without merit. However, the entirety of history must be viewed and considered before making a judgment call on the current status of things US or world wide.

Let me clear one point. my "views" are not strictly military, nor wishful thinking. They are based on factual events that have alread occured.

That out of the way, let's explore:

What is my job to you? Military intervention? That's it? Hardly. (only speaking for myself in my little corner of military issues), I have gone to Haiti, to rebuild schools for children that were looted by lazy asses, who would rather rip the Planks and boards from desks, chairs and floors, to burn, rather than harvesting the wood from the nearby woods (that takes effort, time and patience). The next morning, all my teams' efforts were for naught (as we saw the decimation of the very schools we repaired/remodeled). I have personally cared for same said type Haitians who pile themselves by the dozens in a boat, meant to carry 10 (we bring them aboard and feed them, clothe them, and give medical aid), while they try to rape little boys and girls on the fantail (on board my ship none the less!). I've had to deal with this same group of people try to stab me, because I won't let them come into my country unless it is done legally.

I have been shot at by South American drug runners who's sole intent was to deliver deadly poisons to mine and Europe's citizenry, for the almighty dollar, then have the balls to accuse me of destroying their own families, by putting them in jail...do you see the logic in this? I sure don't.

Why would they risk their lives and mine to run drugs? Because you (collectively) the citizen, want them and will pay top dollar for them. In short, the very citizens I'm sworn to protect, set me up for death, because they want what they want, when they want it, and will pay a great deal of money for it...not all or even the majority, but enough, to make it worth while for the drug runners to try and smuggle that crap into the US/Europe.

We, buried a Coast Guardsman, killed in the line of duty (in Iraq), surprised? He, by his actions, saved over 200 innocent people from being blown up on an off shore oil rigs, in the Persian Gulf. He lived up to his title (Life saver).

The f'n cowards that cost him his life, didn't even have the gumption to be on the small boats that exploded, taking the Coasty's life (they were remote controlled). But, they didn't take out the oil rig either. And they haven't tried again.

If you really think America (amerikka) is so bad...why don't you try living in Iran?

If America is "imperialist", then everytime you start your car of convenience, you contribute to that "imperialism". We do what we do, because you want what you want.

LOL, there use to be a time when horses ran the roads, and automobiles required a permit to drive those same roads...now cars run the show, and a permit is required to run a horse on said same roads. Why? citizen convenience...

As far as the US meddling in the affairs of the world?...don't blame the US. It wanted nothing to do with the rest of the world. But it got dragged in (kicking and screaming), to fix the world's screw ups, not once, not twice, not three times, nor four...five times we've been brought in to fix the MESS the REST OF THE WORLD MADE. Yet those same folk have the gall to critique the US, for the way it handles business?

Iran, made the mistake of making hostage those reps of our diplomatic core, to Iran. This was before Iraq ever engaged in warfare with Iran...

We had no beef with Iran.

Look, I'm not about to give an all out history lesson here. Suffice it to say, the fault lies with the citizen, not the military.

We do your "dirtywork"...and we take the blame. You expect the military to do what? Counter the president? When that happens, it is called a coupe.

The US military is too civil and too independant, and too resolved to adhering to the Constitution of the United States, to consider such a thing (unlike the countries you seem to admire more). Try looking at your legislative and Judicial branches for the crap you see happening...

Executive branch means exactly that (to execute, the laws of the land), laws you alowed, by your actions or inaction...

You set the rules...

I'm just left to clean up the mess...(maybe you're lucky to have people like me with my "miltary" solutions...else you might be walking to work, if you still had a job)...

Otherwise, I hope you have a great day!

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

maybe you're lucky to have people like me with my "miltary" solutions...else you might be walking to work, if you still had a job...

See, here's the deal though. I do walk to work every day. And I enjoy it. I would much rather walk than drive. Not wanting to use oil anymore than I have to to survive plays a part in it for sure, but also it is just better for my nerves, my physical and mental constitution, for me to walk among people, birds, grasses, rabbits, and trees, than to drive through traffic.

I am living what I bitch about. Just as you are living what you believe is best. I do apologize for losing it earlier today. That was ugly. And I appreciate you sharing with me some of the things you have done to help people. Perhaps I assume too much and jump to conclusions at times. I don't think I am the only one.

We certainly are at opposite ends of the table. I appreciate that you believe and live what you say here, and that you are willing to sacrifice for that. I also sacrfice, in ways different than you do. I'm not of the paternal or military bent, yet everyday I wake into a world that is very much paternalistic and very militaristic. A world that--from my perspective--values goods and money over human lives. Living my quirky, freak power truth in this climate and using my voice is not easy and takes a great deal of courage. I do get frustrated because, like you, I am working towards certain ideals that I believe in very strongly. Like yours, they are not always popular. And like you, I sometimes lose my temper. Thanks for holding yours against words that were meant to offend. That was chitty of me.

Peace,
P

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Pathless

See, here's the deal though. I do walk to work every day. And I enjoy it. I would much rather walk than drive. Not wanting to use oil anymore than I have to to survive plays a part in it for sure, but also it is just better for my nerves, my physical and mental constitution, for me to walk among people, birds, grasses, rabbits, and trees, than to drive through traffic.

I am living what I bitch about. Just as you are living what you believe is best. I do apologize for losing it earlier today. That was ugly. And I appreciate you sharing with me some of the things you have done to help people. Perhaps I assume too much and jump to conclusions at times. I don't think I am the only one.

We certainly are at opposite ends of the table. I appreciate that you believe and live what you say here, and that you are willing to sacrifice for that. I also sacrfice, in ways different than you do. I'm not of the paternal or military bent, yet everyday I wake into a world that is very much paternalistic and very militaristic. A world that--from my perspective--values goods and money over human lives. Living my quirky, freak power truth in this climate and using my voice is not easy and takes a great deal of courage. I do get frustrated because, like you, I am working towards certain ideals that I believe in very strongly. Like yours, they are not always popular. And like you, I sometimes lose my temper. Thanks for holding yours against words that were meant to offend. That was chitty of me.

Peace,
P

Are you familiar with the general (Roman) that was pulled from retirement, in order to battle Hannibal? He left his farm (wife and children), went and soundly defeated the invaders from Carthage (sp, I'm too damn tired to look up the spelling), then turned to the Senate of Rome and said, "Don't call me again"...?

To be frank...that is how I feel. What we need is people who give a damn about our home (folk like you), so I don't have to strap an M-16 across my back, or sweat the fact that my name sake, lies in the hands of two young men, who are patrolling the streets of some strange and lazy peopled country, and could die any moment.

You want courage? "Our men and women in uniform", trying to rebuild a nation that has suffered for decades under tyranical leadership...that is courage, our "bumbling president" who refuses to give in to political folly, and takes full responsibility for his actions, right/wrong/or indifferent, that is courage.

You want examples of cowardice? Iraq. Five years after, and they still let themselves get cowed by ass holes. Iran and Syria, with the "Janus" mouth. Hamas with their human shields, Hezballah, who fire's RPGs at farm houses, and calls it a major victory against "Zionism", the entire Middle East, who's governments and people refuse to be their brother's keeper, but rather let "foreigners" do the dirty work. The US congress falling over themselves to get away from the vote they made to get us into this war to begin with. (presidents don't declare war...Congress does), that is cowardice.

Yes, Iraq is a new baby nation, but someone has to change the diapers...

Look, you're right. We aren't doing things the best way...not by a long shot. But we are doing things the best way we currently know how. And WE are DOING SOMETHING...not just sitting on our collective asses, criticizing everyone else.

I hope you can find some pride in that.

I ask that you consider this, in the future.

v/r

Joshua

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Are you familiar with the general (Roman) that was pulled from retirement, in order to battle Hannibal? He left his farm (wife and children), went and soundly defeated the invaders from Carthage (sp, I'm too damn tired to look up the spelling), then turned to the Senate of Rome and said, "Don't call me again"...?

To be frank...that is how I feel. What we need is people who give a damn about our home (folk like you), so I don't have to strap an M-16 across my back, or sweat the fact that my name sake, lies in the hands of two young men, who are patrolling the streets of some strange and lazy peopled country, and could die any moment.

I do give a damn. About all the people in the world. I find it awfully bold of you to call citizens of Iraq, civillians who are enduring hardships that they did not sign up for--unlike soldiers in any army--that I cannot begin to properly fathom, and have been enduring for some time now--to dismiss these people as lazy when they have systematically been deprived of their human rights is quite bold.

As far as our government not calling you up again to prosecute Imperialist wars and occupations--you know I am all for that. Let's have some deep examination of our foreign policies, wake up to the injustices that are being pepetrated in Ameirca everyday, try to solve those and truly value freedom, and stop policing and bullying the world.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

You want courage? "Our men and women in uniform", trying to rebuild a nation that has suffered for decades under tyranical leadership...that is courage, our "bumbling president" who refuses to give in to political folly, and takes full responsibility for his actions, right/wrong/or indifferent, that is courage.

Courage comes in many forms. Armed military service is one. Free-thinking political dissent is another, and just as vital to this country. Indeed, dissent and the right to self determination are the inititiatives that began the United States of America. Armed resistance came later.

I apologize but I cannot stretch my notion of courage to include a weasly man, George Dubya Bush, who puts on jet-fighter costumes, grins like a cock, cocks his thumb upwards, and gives half-baked speeches that stoke the fires of violence. How is it courageous to fly a plastic turkey half-way around the world on Thanksgiving for a photo-shoot with the troops you have sent to die in a harsh desert for your own political and financial gain, then turn around and go back to Texas? I don't get it.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

You want examples of cowardice? Iraq. Five years after, and they still let themselves get cowed by ass holes. Iran and Syria, with the "Janus" mouth. Hamas with their human shields, Hezballah, who fire's RPGs at farm houses, and calls it a major victory against "Zionism", the entire Middle East, who's governments and people refuse to be their brother's keeper, but rather let "foreigners" do the dirty work. The US congress falling over themselves to get away from the vote they made to get us into this war to begin with. (presidents don't declare war...Congress does), that is cowardice.

No real comment on this one.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Yes, Iraq is a new baby nation, but someone has to change the diapers.

Ho now!! Again, no comment. Some thoughts about paternalism, but I'll just let them fester in my head and spare you.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Look, you're right. We aren't doing things the best way...not by a long shot. But we are doing things the best way we currently know how. And WE are DOING SOMETHING...not just sitting on our collective asses, criticizing everyone else.

Active political dissent and criticism cannot be eqauted with sitting on one's ass. I'm not sure if this is what you meant to say, but I do feel I need to point that out. Acting and speaking critically of misguided policies is essential to the proper functioning of a democracy. It takes courage and is often thankless, laborious work. Kinda like being a soldier in a way.

Originally Posted by Quahom1

I hope you can find some pride in that.
I ask that you consider this, in the future.

Pride indeed.