Saddam Is Dead

[wil]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

You know, rudeness does not suit you...

Namaste Q,

I'm not pointing at you...yes you said it, but its been brewing. I seriously enjoy the heck out of this country and all the privlige it provides...

But how different am I from being born prince in a deprived country...where I sit gloriously behind my walls while the peasants starve and my family takes their toll from them?

What did any of us do to deserve to sit on top of the world...world richest economy and highest standard of living...I know that isn't true...there are some very small countries who have it better...where none of their citizenry works...but nobody has the economy of scale that we have..

Cars, VCRs DVDs, TVs, now DLP and Plasma...giant screens to watch the horrors outside our boundaries, whilst worrying whether our millionaires will drive in a run for the hometeam...throw another one to the lions.

Seriously...we enjoy wealth and safety due to being a member of the lucky sperm club.

Unless you ascribe to some sort of Karma or Reincarnation...what right do we have to look down our collective noses at anyone...Yes 200 years ago the Terrorists, I mean Rebels, I mean Patriots fought for freedom.

And war after war after that they protected it....but we were just DNA born here...and then we take pride in creating the bombs, brandishing the best weapons, going in with the best force behind our drones and satelites and waltzing over any army...HOOOOOO-RAH.

You are an intelligent thinking man Q....what sense does it make?

And don't think I don't appreciate you not jumping down my throat...on this, It wasn't what I intended tonight...or ever...but seriously...

There isn't hardly an iota of difference between any of us...and any that we are at war with...except whose sperm fertilized whose egg...and by the luck of the draw we begin crying in Ethiopia, Benin, Iraq, Iran, or Kansas...

click your heels, thank the lord and pass the ammunition!

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

Namaste Q,

I'm not pointing at you...yes you said it, but its been brewing. I seriously enjoy the heck out of this country and all the privlige it provides...

But how different am I from being born prince in a deprived country...where I sit gloriously behind my walls while the peasants starve and my family takes their toll from them?

Because you ditz (said in affectionate irritation), God PUT YOU HERE. Now, DO SOMETHING with your GRACES. Start Local, and move on from there.

I tell my troops, "If you bring up a problem, you best have some solutions..."

I tell you the same thing. Think of viable solutions, to the problems we have...if you think the powers that be are not listening, you are really out of touch with the government...

I'm done here.

v/r

Joshua

[wil]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

Because you ditz (said in affectionate irritation), God PUT YOU HERE. Now, DO SOMETHING with your GRACES. Start Local, and move on from there.

...if you think the powers that be are not listening, you are really out of touch with the government...

I'm done here.

no striking and running away...you know better

Of course the powers that be aren't listening, they were told the intel was wrong and sent Colin Powell to the UN anyway and that was what sold the country...and 600,000 Iraqi civilians by the grace of G-d?? were in the wrong place??

The powers that be always try to get their agenda across until the next election, put on the blinders and damn the torpedoes (public) full speed ahead.

If you'll remember the public spoke when it voted in the republican party after three decades of democratic control...we wanted fiscal conservatives, less government, to retain our liberty and rights just as promised. Instead we got runaway gov't spending (before the war) 3 bills passing all which drastically limited the rights of CITIZENS...and more rules and bigger gov't.

The public spoke again...house and senate changed control...Bush and Rove still didn't listen and how many lackies must resign or fall? Gonzlales replaced Attorney General Ashcroft who resigned...Gonzales is Rove's latest fall guy...and remember Libby who took the sword first for Rove? or how about our FEMA director who did such a great job? Powell finally had enough as well as Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill, Education Secretary Rod Paige, Commerce Secretary Donald Evans, Agriculture Secretary Ann Veneman, and Energy Secretary Spencer Abraham have also resigned. Every one of them hand picked Bush appointees...

I think you have it backwards...it isn't that I am out of touch, but our gov't with its Abramoff selloff, lobbying trips, power trips and head trips that is out of touch...

100 million to make a viable run at a primary?? and this isn't an oligarchy??

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

no striking and running away...you know better

I'm not cutting and running Wil. I'm exasperated, and know my limits. And I feel the sarcastic side rising.

[Pathless]

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. "

--Theodore Roosevelt, 1918

Patriotism. The way "Patriotism" has been spun in the years since 9/11 is a lot of Fascist Malarkey. Be Patriotic!! Buy a Yellow Ribbon and put it on your car!! Better yet, your SUV!! In the days after 9/11, "patriotism" was literally equated with buying things. This was expllicitly stated and encouraged by our Corporate President Bush. He told America: don't stay home. That's what them Terrorists want you to do. Go out. Buy stuff. Keep the great American Economy going. Buy. Buy. Buy.

Furthermore, citizens can support the military by acting to end the war in Iraq now. That is patriotic. It is not "unpatriotic" to demand accountability of your leaders, and it is not "unpatriotic" to be concerned not only about soldiers' lives, but the lives of all people, in the Middle East and elsewhere. The estimates of Iraqi dead since the stupposed "Liberation" of Iraq range from 100,000 to closer to a million. With the destruction of infrastructure, lack of electricity, potable water, and jobs, many more people live in miserable conditions. What is happening in Iraq, keeping our military there, is neither in the military's best interest nor the Iraqi people's best interest. To say otherwise is to either blatantly ignore the suffering of hundreds of thousands or to justify that suffering for a "higher good" that I am unable to comprehend.

What is this "higher good" that allows so many to suffer? It's not democracy. I believe that has been well-established by this point. Is it some religious higher good? Morals? What kind of morals allow for such death and suffering? Jesus weeps at this sort of thing, y'all. Mohammed don't dig it neither. There may be certain CULTS of violent religious zealots on both sides who are convinced in some other-wordly or end-times "higher good" that is playing out here, but those of us who are invested in planet Earth and her children--this world as opposed to some speculative next world--cannot accept that "higher good" at such a high cost.

I learned yesterday from two representatives of Military Families Speak Out that one of the atrocities of this war involves multitudes of soldiers coming back home with traumatic brain injuries. TBI is a horrible condition that varies widely depending on severity and area damaged, and regardless presents immense difficulties for those who receive these traumatic brain injuries. The support for these people is not here for them when they get home, and it is up to their families to figure out how to care for them without assistance from the VA, which is underequipped, understaffed, underfunded, and undertrained for these injuries. Support the troops...?? Not in these cases.

The speaker also told the story of a young woman whose husband went over to Iraq and was stop-lossed (I believe I have this term right/corret me if not) days before he was to return (apparently not an uncommon practice) and had to stay for at least an additional three months. The young woman, his wife, had three children at home. While many people in her community were driving around with those damn yellow ribbons on their trucks and cars, not a one checked in with her to see if she needed help with the kids. Again... support the troops? What?

Stickers don't cut it. Patriotism is not all about cheering to the drums of war and jeering at foreigners. Critical thinking, having the balls to ask some hard questions and look deeply at our foreign policies, creating intelligent debate and dialogue--these things are also patriotic. To claim otherwise and to allow oneself to be swept up by the media or by the promises of a President who wants to pass off as a benevolent, stern father figure and is anything but--all the while shouting down, huffing and puffing, or snidely looking down one's nose at those who don't conform, conform, conform, and fall in lock-step line, may be called Patriotism by some.

But not all.

If diversity makes this country truly great, surely there is room for dissent and dialouge. Indeed these things are absolutely essential for the proper functioning of a sane society.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Pathless

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. "

--Theodore Roosevelt, 1918

Patriotism. The way "Patriotism" has been spun in the years since 9/11 is a lot of Fascist Malarkey. Be Patriotic!! Buy a Yellow Ribbon and put it on your car!! Better yet, your SUV!! In the days after 9/11, "patriotism" was literally equated with buying things. This was expllicitly stated and encouraged by our Corporate President Bush. He told America: don't stay home. That's what them Terrorists want you to do. Go out. Buy stuff. Keep the great American Economy going. Buy. Buy. Buy.

Furthermore, citizens can support the military by acting to end the war in Iraq now. That is patriotic. It is not "unpatriotic" to demand accountability of your leaders, and it is not "unpatriotic" to be concerned not only about soldiers' lives, but the lives of all people, in the Middle East and elsewhere. The estimates of Iraqi dead since the stupposed "Liberation" of Iraq range from 100,000 to closer to a million. With the destruction of infrastructure, lack of electricity, potable water, and jobs, many more people live in miserable conditions. What is happening in Iraq, keeping our military there, is neither in the military's best interest nor the Iraqi people's best interest. To say otherwise is to either blatantly ignore the suffering of hundreds of thousands or to justify that suffering for a "higher good" that I am unable to comprehend.

What is this "higher good" that allows so many to suffer? It's not democracy. I believe that has been well-established by this point. Is it some religious higher good? Morals? What kind of morals allow for such death and suffering? Jesus weeps at this sort of thing, y'all. Mohammed don't dig it neither. There may be certain CULTS of violent religious zealots on both sides who are convinced in some other-wordly or end-times "higher good" that is playing out here, but those of us who are invested in planet Earth and her children--this world as opposed to some speculative next world--cannot accept that "higher good" at such a high cost.

I learned yesterday from two representatives of Military Families Speak Out that one of the atrocities of this war involves multitudes of soldiers coming back home with traumatic brain injuries. TBI is a horrible condition that varies widely depending on severity and area damaged, and regardless presents immense difficulties for those who receive these traumatic brain injuries. The support for these people is not here for them when they get home, and it is up to their families to figure out how to care for them without assistance from the VA, which is underequipped, understaffed, underfunded, and undertrained for these injuries. Support the troops...?? Not in these cases.

The speaker also told the story of a young woman whose husband went over to Iraq and was stop-lossed (I believe I have this term right/corret me if not) days before he was to return (apparently not an uncommon practice) and had to stay for at least an additional three months. The young woman, his wife, had three children at home. While many people in her community were driving around with those damn yellow ribbons on their trucks and cars, not a one checked in with her to see if she needed help with the kids. Again... support the troops? What?

Stickers don't cut it. Patriotism is not all about cheering to the drums of war and jeering at foreigners. Critical thinking, having the balls to ask some hard questions and look deeply at our foreign policies, creating intelligent debate and dialogue--these things are also patriotic. To claim otherwise and to allow oneself to be swept up by the media or by the promises of a President who wants to pass off as a benevolent, stern father figure and is anything but--all the while shouting down, huffing and puffing, or snidely looking down one's nose at those who don't conform, conform, conform, and fall in lock-step line, may be called Patriotism by some.

But not all.

If diversity makes this country truly great, surely there is room for dissent and dialouge. Indeed these things are absolutely essential for the proper functioning of a sane society.

You actually think the president runs this country? Think again...closer to home, like your representitives and your corporations and your companies and your local judges, and your police forces, and your teachers (or their unions).

The president, is in the executive branch of government...He/she EXECUTES law. The LAW is made by the Legislative branch of government. That is your CONGRESS and SENATE. The judicial branch determines what is constitutional or not. That is your JUDGES. These good folk are voted in by, guess who?...

So the fault lies with the citizen. With a finger pointed at the politicians, remember three are pointed back at self...

While our brave sons and daughters are dying and being maimed, we enjoy our SUVs and luxury boats and what not. Unlike WWII, there is no gas rationing. There is no metal reclamation. There is no potluck neighborhood suppers.

What there is is the status quo. Do whatever we want because its a free country...who the hell do you think keeps it free? You? Me?

Don't blame the president...he ain't that powerful.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Pathless

How irritatingly patronizing. Okay, here's a pat on the back from me. "Good boy." That feels nice, huh?



Soldiers ain't solely responsible for free speech. To make that claim is utterly ridiculous.

How ridiculous for you to state otherwise. A standing army is the ONLY thing that keeps a nation from being taken over by others. Hence a standing army is what keeps a government viable, hence the constitution, hence your rights to call me ridiculous.

Think about it.

[Tao_Equus]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

You actually think the president runs this country? Think again...closer to home, like your representitives and your corporations and your companies and your local judges, and your police forces, and your teachers (or their unions).

The president, is in the executive branch of government...He/she EXECUTES law. The LAW is made by the Legislative branch of government. That is your CONGRESS and SENATE. The judicial branch determines what is constitutional or not. That is your JUDGES. These good folk are voted in by, guess who?...

So the fault lies with the citizen. With a finger pointed at the politicians, remember three are pointed back at self...

While our brave sons and daughters are dying and being maimed, we enjoy our SUVs and luxury boats and what not. Unlike WWII, there is no gas rationing. There is no metal reclamation. There is no potluck neighborhood suppers.

What there is is the status quo. Do whatever we want because its a free country...who the hell do you think keeps it free? You? Me?

Don't blame the president...he ain't that powerful.

But the Presidential Veto is all powerful in halting any democraticly agreed change from his policy. So how aint he "that powerful" ????

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

But the Presidential Veto is all powerful in halting any democraticly agreed change from his policy. So how aint he "that powerful" ????

Ah, Tao...but he/she can do it once, and if the law makers push hard enough, they can overide the veto. But then, you already knew that.

[flowperson]

Originally Posted by Tao_Equus

But the Presidential Veto is all powerful in halting any democraticly agreed change from his policy. So how aint he "that powerful" ????

Not to mention the fact in all of this that the current President, while not exercising his veto power very much during his two terms HAS written seven hundred and some odd "signing statements" attached to the laws that he has signed into effect. These statements essentially qualify away a large portion of his assent to the laws as chief executive and in effect say to the nation, its citizens , and the world, "I really don't care what the law says...I'm going to do whatever I please whenever I please to do it and essentially ignore what the law says." This, by the way, includes approvals of torture, secret renditions and secret incarcerations of suspects, and secret eavesdroppping on U.S. citizens without any recourse of the renditioned, imprisoned, or snooped upon in defiance of international laws.

Also not to mention the fact that he and the Vice-president, almost single-handedly, led us into these very destructive conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan based upon patently false information that they actively promoted as truth despite many questions to the contrary raised by many experts including dozens of Nobel Laureates and Pope John-Paul II.

The Pope, before he died, also stated that the war in Iraq would become a holocaust. The historical fact remains that decade-long economic sanctions had essentially destroyed the social and economic fabric of Iraq since the Kuwait-based conflict initiated by George I ended, and this war was simply waged to kill people...Saddam included. It's been quite a success in that regard... huh? And I believe that most people now realize this to all be true no matter what bogus stories and kangaroo proceedings are organized and used to try to spin it all in different directions.


flow....

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Not to mention the fact in all of this that the current President, while not exercising his veto power very much during his two terms HAS written seven hundred and some odd "signing statements" attached to the laws that he has signed into effect. These statements essentially qualify away a large portion of his assent to the laws as chief executive and in effect say to the nation, its citizens , and the world, "I really don't care what the law says...I'm going to do whatever I please whenever I please to do it and essentially ignore what the law says." This, by the way, includes approvals of torture, secret renditions andsecret incarcerations of suspects, and secret eavesdroppping on U.S. citizens without any recourse of the renditioned, imprisoned, or snooped upon in defiance of international laws.

Also not to mention the fact that he and the Vice-president, almost single-handedly, led us into these very destructive conflicts in Iraq and Afghaanistan based upon patently false information that they actively promoted as truth despite many questions to the contrary raised by many experts including dozens of Nobel Laureates and Pope John-Paul II.

The Pope, before he died, also stated that the war in Iraq would become a holocaust. The historical fact remains that decade-long economic sanctions had essentially destroyed the social and economic fabric of Iraq since the Kuwait-based conflict initiated by George I ended, and this war was simply waged to kill people...Saddam included. It's been quite a success in that regard... huh? And I believe that most people now realize this to all be true no matter what bogus stories and kangaroo proceedings are organized and used to try to spin it all in different directions.


flow....

I suppose I should be angrier Flow...my only two namesakes are serving over there and have been blown up twice each...but they keep going back, because they believe in something that apparently others can't see.

I wonder what that is, and why that is...

[wil]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

How ridiculous for you to state otherwise. A standing army is the ONLY thing that keeps a nation from being taken over by others. Hence a standing army is what keeps a government viable, hence the constitution, hence your rights to call me ridiculous.

Think about it.

er..uh...a standing army is what our forefathers warned against....well that and direct taxation, printing useless money, restricting guns....what did they know anyway?

[Pathless]

Originally Posted by Quahom1

You actually think the president runs this country?

I didn't say that. Did I?? At any rate, he sure did quite a bit to whip the American people into a war-mongering, vengeful frenzy. Of course he wasn't the only one and isn't. The media is largely at fault, and a broken educational system that doesn't encourage kids to think critically about issues as much as it prepares them to fall into a career cog in a well-oiled capitalist machine.

Think again...closer to home, like your representitives and your corporations and your companies and your local judges, and your police forces, and your teachers (or their unions).

The president, is in the executive branch of government...He/she EXECUTES law. The LAW is made by the Legislative branch of government. That is your CONGRESS and SENATE. The judicial branch determines what is constitutional or not. That is your JUDGES. These good folk are voted in by, guess who?...

So the fault lies with the citizen. With a finger pointed at the politicians, remember three are pointed back at self...

Thanks for the remdial lesson, Q. Whoopdeeeeedoo. The system is quite corrupt really. I'm not sure our votes and voices count quite the way that they're trumped up to. Yet I do believe we can be hugely infulential, and please don't assume that I am not politically active and civically engaged.

While our brave sons and daughters are dying and being maimed, we enjoy our SUVs and luxury boats and what not.

Some do. Not all. Some wouldn't enjoy those things even if they had them. Some of us simply do not desire that kind of empty "wealth." Please also do not assume that I am ungraciously and unthinkingly living the high life while people are being killed. That is not the case.

Unlike WWII, there is no gas rationing. There is no metal reclamation. There is no potluck neighborhood suppers.

Perhaps there should be. What's the metal reclamation about? Would that be like taking someone's luxury boat and using those resources in the war effort? I'd support that if I supported war. I would definitely support something like that for a more peaceful, community-oriented cause.

What there is is the status quo. Do whatever we want because its a free country...who the hell do you think keeps it free? You? Me?

Just how "free" we are is a matter of perspective and up for debate. I certainly feel less free than would be ideal, but then I'm beginning to understand that I tend more towards the anarchist or small-scale, direct participatory democracy region of the spectrum.

Don't blame the president...he ain't that powerful.

We are all liable and accountable for the atrocities our nation has commited and is continuing to commit. It certainly did not start with the current administration, but this particular neocon crew has been very aggressive and much more blatant about the forceful role that they would have America take in shaping world affairs. And in fairness to the many individuals in this country, the media and government work in many ways to keep people complacent and in ignorance. Although there are some who actively support immoral wars, racist foreign policies, and the like, there are many many more who simply are not aware of the ways that they are being manipulated from day to day. The problems are very deep-rooted. The society is very ill.

I agree with you Q, on one point, that the responsibility does not lie with the president or any one individual. Yet again I would like to point out that I never said that it did. Somehow you inferred that.

Each one of us has immense power. It is difficult to reclaim and harness that power, I've found, in a culture of conformity and disempowerment that conceals itself as one of individualism and opportunity. Yet it can be done and must. Each of us must discover and live our own truth, all the while harming none and respecting others' truths (as long as those truths harm none).


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

How ridiculous for you to state otherwise. A standing army is the ONLY thing that keeps a nation from being taken over by others. Hence a standing army is what keeps a government viable, hence the constitution, hence your rights to call me ridiculous.

Think about it.

Point taken, although I'm an idealist and strive for a world without a need for armies. Clearly you and I are going to disagree there and on other basic points (which is why we often get tangled up like this, no? ). Yet even in a world such as the one we are currently navigating, where we appear to need armies, they must not be abused and misused. I believe very strongly that this country has been abusing and misusing its army (and other branches of military) due to misguided foreign policies for quite some time. From my point of view, the issue isn't rooted in the military or in war, it's rooted in a domineering style of foreign policy which will, as a last resort, misuse the country's military to bomb and bludgeon other countries into submission.

This is no way to run a democractic country and no way to promote democracy in the world.

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by wil

er..uh...a standing army is what our forefathers warned against....well that and direct taxation, printing useless money, restricting guns....what did they know anyway?

Er, then they turned around and created, else we'd not be a country or a nation...who said they were perfect?

[Quahom1]

Originally Posted by Pathless

I didn't say that. Did I?? At any rate, he sure did quite a bit to whip the American people into a war-mongering, vengeful frenzy. Of course he wasn't the only one and isn't. The media is largely at fault, and a broken educational system that doesn't encourage kids to think critically about issues as much as it prepares them to fall into a career cog in a well-oiled capitalist machine.



Thanks for the remdial lesson, Q. Whoopdeeeeedoo. The system is quite corrupt really. I'm not sure our votes and voices count quite the way that they're trumped up to. Yet I do believe we can be hugely infulential, and please don't assume that I am not politically active and civically engaged.



Some do. Not all. Some wouldn't enjoy those things even if they had them. Some of us simply do not desire that kind of empty "wealth." Please also do not assume that I am ungraciously and unthinkingly living the high life while people are being killed. That is not the case.



Perhaps there should be. What's the metal reclamation about? Would that be like taking someone's luxury boat and using those resources in the war effort? I'd support that if I supported war. I would definitely support something like that for a more peaceful, community-oriented cause.



Just how "free" we are is a matter of perspective and up for debate. I certainly feel less free than would be ideal, but then I'm beginning to understand that I tend more towards the anarchist or small-scale, direct participatory democracy region of the spectrum.



We are all liable and accountable for the atrocities our nation has commited and is continuing to commit. It certainly did not start with the current administration, but this particular neocon crew has been very aggressive and much more blatant about the forceful role that they would have America take in shaping world affairs. And in fairness to the many individuals in this country, the media and government work in many ways to keep people complacent and in ignorance. Although there are some who actively support immoral wars, racist foreign policies, and the like, there are many many more who simply are not aware of the ways that they are being manipulated from day to day. The problems are very deep-rooted. The society is very ill.

I agree with you Q, on one point, that the responsibility does not lie with the president or any one individual. Yet again I would like to point out that I never said that it did. Somehow you inferred that.

Each one of us has immense power. It is difficult to reclaim and harness that power, I've found, in a culture of conformity and disempowerment that conceals itself as one of individualism and opportunity. Yet it can be done and must. Each of us must discover and live our own truth, all the while harming none and respecting others' truths (as long as those truths harm none).


-----------------------------------------------------------------------



Point taken, although I'm an idealist and strive for a world without a need for armies. Clearly you and I are going to disagree there and on other basic points (which is why we often get tangled up like this, no? ). Yet even in a world such as the one we are currently navigating, where we appear to need armies, they must not be abused and misused. I believe very strongly that this country has been abusing and misusing its army (and other branches of military) due to misguided foreign policies for quite some time. From my point of view, the issue isn't rooted in the military or in war, it's rooted in a domineering style of foreign policy which will, as a last resort, misuse the country's military to bomb and bludgeon other countries into submission.

This is no way to run a democractic country and no way to promote democracy in the world.

Wow, you don't think much of the American public's mind, do you....