role models and mature spiritual behaviour

[I, Brian]

Originally Posted by baud

Age plays a role, but is not IMHO a driving factor.

Absolutely agree there - life experience is an ancient teacher, but age is no guarantee of degree of life experience.

However, on top of that, there's inspiration. Yet even then, inspiration does not reveal a pyramid of information, of which the most inspired therefore know more of the pyramid than others - but instead inspiration covers different colours and textures of ideas.

My own personal inspiration is not a mantle of authority to dictate to others with, but instead a shepherd's crook used only on certain hills. When on those hills I can give plenty, yet on others I am but a novice.

Perhaps off the point a little, but here's a Buddhist quite I once "channelled" -

"The Fool who thinks himself a wise man demonstrates folly, but the Fool who knows he is a Fool demonstrates wisdom."

The Fools are the greatest teachers, and much underrated. However, it is in their nature to be so.

[BlackHeart]

Originally Posted by bgruagach

In situations where there is a teacher-student relationship, it is important to keep in mind the question: "Of the two, WHO is supposed to be the mature one?"

Ah, that's such a deceptively simple question. Were these "students" young children, perhaps it would be appropriate. But as many of these students & seekers are adults in their own right, just not experienced in Craft, I don't believe that they should expect the "elders" to be any more calm, respectful, patient or mature than anyone else.

Many pagan elders are wise & compassionate. But that doesn't mean they have an obligation to be nice to jerks--these aren't paths for everyone, and the elder is perfectly within his rights to say, "I am not wasting my time teaching anyone who just basically doesn't get along with me." Maturity doesn't mean omni-tolerance, nor coddling of misconceptions.

After all, it's known as the Craft of the Wise, not the Craft of the Really Nice Friendly People.

I have to say I've witnessed exchanges where a "petulant student" was put down by an "elder", and as an observer I can honestly say that I wasn't surprised by the student's behaviour towards the elder. Students learn from what they see demonstrated as much if not more than from what they are told. Students are much more likely to do what they see the teacher do, rather than doing what the teacher says they should do.

I've seen that too. I've seen students & seekers (two different categories, in my mind) try to emulate the behavior of pagan "elders": the firm confidence in their explanations, the near-instinctive understanding of how different aspects of Craft all flow together, the calm acceptance of those who seriously follow different paths.

This can cause problems: the neophyte doesn't actually *have* the understanding he's imitating. So he comes across as cocky & immature--even by copying the exact same verbal pattern as the experienced pagans. And it grates on some of those elders (or whatever we're to call them; "elder" seems like an odd word in many cases).

And I've seen them copy the less-pleasant but fully understandable attitudes of some: the irritation when their hard-learned lessons are ignored or insulted, the title-claiming or name-dropping or credential-sharing that's sometimes necessary to show that one does have the experience one claims, the outright anger at people who insult the traditions & Gods they've grown to love.

And again, the neophyte imitates what he sees: it's okay for elders to act like this, it must be okay for me, right?

Saying, "It's not really okay for elders to act like this" is only half the problem. The other half is telling the beginner that No, you don't have the right to act like that. Or at least, you don't have the right to expect *respect* after acting like that--and the elder might.

[brucegdc]

I think this discussion is pointing out one fundamental difference with many Wiccan groups and many "organized" religions. (And there are exceptions either way).

Fundamentally, respect is granted on a one to one basis by most Wiccans. In general, credentials aren't useful across traditions - the knowledge and experience gains the respect, not credentials. Within a tradition, this may or may not be valid - depending on the background of the tradition (eclectic traditions being less likely to have or recognize credentials directly).

This lack of credentialling makes the behavior part of the process. I am unlikely to respect someone whose behavior I do not wish to emulate. Similarly, I'm more likely to take on faith someone's statements who has behaved in a fashion congruent to my personal ethos. And that goes for both directions - if I act in a manner that is not acceptable to another, I cannot expect respect. It may be that we are on divergent paths, and we need to recognize that and move on.

I hope the above isn't too confused. It's been a long day, and will be longer as I get back to work again.

[Guard]

Quote: Baud
It would suggest that this factor probably also plays a role in neo-paganism. Some people who reach a position that they consider "influential" turn into arrogant pontificating persons as a way to compensate the fact that they don't have any power over others in their mundane life.
Baud[/quote]

I agree entirely with this point of view and it is the reason for my interest in this intellectual forum which I find to be high on etiquette and non judgemental.

A Point in case:

As a seeker of knowledge and a deeper understanding of my own spirituality I recently encountered a pagan forum that I ultimately found to have heavy Dianic leanings verging on feminism. This is simply my own appraisal of that forum. It would not be constructive or helpful to name the forum but sufice it to say that the "god" was conspicuous by his absence in the title of the forum. Most curiously, the forum is administered by a male which in itself is unusual for a female dominated forum and you may take from that what you will. The forum has a disproportionately high number of moderators to members (at this time one mod for every three regular posting members).This situation is conducive only to an unhealthy control and dominance over the views of ordinary regular members which in turn destroys any hope of providing a useful learning environment. In this case, I believe this need to dominate and control others in order to address failings in one's own life has led to a degradation of the forum. Likewise, in any environment most people will simply move away from what they perceive to be uncomfortable, unfair or unhealthy,rather than confronting those responsible for this discomfort. When we do confront we are often accused of being irrational usually in an attempt to further dominate and control us.
I suspect that the witch in question in assuming a position of superiority and exercising influencial control may have blindly sealed her own fate in the same way as that of the aforementioned forum. I have heard it said that those who really do have power and control seldom use it. It's only when we feel that we are not in control of our own lives that we often try to control, manipulate, dominate, criticise, belittle and poor scorn on others in an effort to raise our own self worth. What has any of that got to do with any religion !. These actions serve only to plunge us deeper into the abyss. The result of a lack of mutual respect. Not the moral highgound, just my own humble opinion.

[Käthe]

Originally Posted by BlackHeart

I think some people forget that respect doesn't equate to authority... that we can hold someone in high esteem, love her ethics & have great respect for the students she's taught--and still not follow her instructions.
<<snip>>

jaded elders who've decided that the opinions of those not in their line is worthless

I really hope that this doesn't get me in trouble, because there is one "naughty" word in it, but I'll chance it:

Your "jaded elders...." mention made me think of this (I haven't thought of it in years - since I wrote it, in fact):


Our Trad
Filk by Käthe


(To the tune of "This Land is Your Land”)

CHORUS (Start with this and repeat after each verse):
Ours is the One Trad,
Ours is the True Trad,
If you don't believe it,
Well that's just too bad.
You're all misguided
If you don't agree with me;
Our Trad's the only way to be!

VERSES:
We never circle
With other Witches;
If they're not Our Trad,
They're useless bitches.
Their Magic's worthless,
As we can plainly see;
Our Trad's the only way to be!

At open Rituals
We never mingle,
Our secret wisdom
Really makes us tingle!
We look down our noses
At others' Mysteries;
Our Trad's the only way to be!

We don't like Gardner,
We don't like Cochran,
Our Trad is harder;
We're really rockin'.
We're not Dianic;
We're more correct than Z;
Our Trad's the only way to be!

We spout Kabbalah,
We practice Tantric.
What we stole from Starhawk
Really made her frantic.
We’re proud of Our Trad’s
Originality;
Our Trad’s the only way to be!

We won't wear Nylon,
We make our own tools.
Right-thinking people
All follow our rules;
If we're self-righteous,
It's 'cause we're right, you see.
Our Trad's the only way to be!

[gwenwifar23]

I agree completely that the Pagan community is too diverse to even really attempt to establish anything like a "code of conduct" or "moral standards" that are to apply universally.

There is allready a universal "code of conduct", as stated in the book of the law.

Do what thou wilt, shall be the whole of the law.

This is not for you, but for other people. If you disagree with someone or with another religion, say and think to them:

Do what thou wilt, shall be the whole of the law.

Every religious war was caused because of the violation of this one and only universal law. As soon as people start telling other people what they should not do, you have a conflict.

Offcourse it doesn't mean that one can do anything. A serial killer allready does what he wants. If he is proven quilty, he is eliminated, because that is the will of most people on earth. The basic things are allready covered by the law and the justice-department. Let's not make eachother's lives miserable by imposing a "higher than thou" mode of conduct upon one another.

[bgruagach]

Originally Posted by gwenwifar23

There is allready a universal "code of conduct", as stated in the book of the law.

Do what thou wilt, shall be the whole of the law.

Aleister Crowley's work was certainly influential on English occultism and Paganism but it is hardly the standard that all occultists or Pagans live by.

Crowley's theories and rules are only applicable to those who choose to follow them. (And it doesn't follow that Crowley's laws are "universal laws of nature" either and therefore we all follow them anyways -- every religion makes that claim yet clearly we are not following every religion out there.)

; )

Ben Gruagach

[whitemare]

I think that a lot of trouble stems from the new breed of witches throwing out the book of law. THAT was the structure - and to some of us still is - and if it is given proper study, still relevant today. It is the instructions & examples of how to run a coven properly whithout descending into a state of backbiting chaos - and it works. I've seen it. And it especially applies to Elders & their conduct. All questions raised by any involved person are relevant & should be answered, because you have to THINK about the subject to reply. I have learnt more about magic & wicca by having to answer questions from students than I learnt at my master's knee! so all good elders should invite questions - and give good answers.
By the way, I am nearly retired & have been running a coven for more years than I like to count. So I might be in a position to have a bit of inside knowledge of the subject....................

[bgruagach]

Originally Posted by whitemare

I think that a lot of trouble stems from the new breed of witches throwing out the book of law. THAT was the structure - and to some of us still is - and if it is given proper study, still relevant today. It is the instructions & examples of how to run a coven properly whithout descending into a state of backbiting chaos - and it works. I've seen it. And it especially applies to Elders & their conduct.

Welcome to Comparative-religion, Whitemare! Great post with lots of thoughtful content.

I assume when you refer to the "witches' book of law" you mean either the Wiccan Rede ("An it harm none, do what you will") or perhaps the list of "laws" Gardner introduced to his coven in the late 1950s?

There are a few problems with both of these being considered universal witch laws.

First, they're Wiccan specifically (originating with Gardner) and since Wicca is just a subset of witchcraft it doesn't extend to non-Wiccan witches unless they choose to adopt them.

Second, the Wiccan Rede, while present as a concept within Gardnerian Wicca right from Gardner's seminal book "Witchcraft Today," did not really take on the central position it now holds for many Wiccans until the 1960s. The key to its embrace as a central tenet seems to have been a speech given by Doreen Valiente in 1964, where the poetic eight-word phrasing was first used: "An it harm none, do what you will." Even though many Wiccans subsequently decided to make it a central tenet there are some Wiccans (including some Gardnerians) who decided to not consider it central. Today the Wiccan Rede is still not considered a universal tenet among Wiccans as a result.

Third, the circumstances regarding when Gardner introduced "the laws" in his coven back in the late 1950s were rather contentious. Gardner brought out "the laws" in order to suppress dissent in his coven, and to try and force Doreen Valiente to step down from the role of High Priestess (apparently, she was "too old" for the job at the ripe age of 35!) Doreen and a number of other coven members who had been involved for a while rejected "the laws" as Gerald trying to pull one over on them and ended up leaving the coven. It was the younger, more compliant members of the coven (who were still in awe of Old Gerald as the font of all Wiccan knowledge) who accepted "the laws" and subsequently passed them on to their initiates as intact ancient transmissions.

So needless to say "the laws" are not considered central to all Wiccans any more than the Wiccan Rede is. Some do accept them, some don't, and all are perfectly valid Wiccans.

Originally Posted by whitemare

All questions raised by any involved person are relevant & should be answered, because you have to THINK about the subject to reply. I have learnt more about magic & wicca by having to answer questions from students than I learnt at my master's knee! so all good elders should invite questions - and give good answers.
By the way, I am nearly retired & have been running a coven for more years than I like to count. So I might be in a position to have a bit of inside knowledge of the subject....................

I am in complete agreement that questions should be respectfully considered and given appropriate responses. I tend to think it's a cop out on the part of some "elders" who refuse to either treat questions respectfully or to give thoughtful responses. Some apparently use questions as a power-game over those they consider their inferiors -- they refuse to give answers, instead dangling the hope of forthcoming responses as a way to keep others dependent on them.

As you observed, we never stop learning even when we take on the role of teacher. In many ways it's the teachers who learn more by being forced to examine their own ideas and come up with explanations that make sense. And having those ideas challenged provides us with a golden opportunity to see if our ideas really have merit.

[whitemare]

I know about the circumstances regarding Gardiner's introduction of the 'Laws' during a time of turmoil in his covens, and the Rede, though apposite, is not the Law I am talking about.
The Law I am concerned with is a series of commands concerning when, how & where we 'perform the Rites' how we conduct ourselves & support each other: examples of conflicts that have been resolved & how these conflicts are to be resolved & who by.
Who wrote it & where it came from are not really the point, because if applied , it works: and quite a lot of people are practcing magic that way, aren't they, when you come down to it.

I am not insisting that all witches & pagans must obey these laws: I am saying that they work & it was a serious mistake to view them as obsolete before actually trying them out.

Oh, on the Valiente point, I am too old to be a priestess. I gave up gracefully. Not to put too fine a point on it, I had been a Maiden ( briefly! ) and then a Mother: so I could play all three roles. But now the hair is grey & some of the bits don't work any more, so I would be deceiving myself if I thought I could play a siren now ! I shall settle into cronehood & make life more interesting for the next generation. I am allowed to be quite mischevious now.

[bgruagach]

Hi Whitemare.

Originally Posted by whitemare

I know about the circumstances regarding Gardiner's introduction of the 'Laws' during a time of turmoil in his covens, and the Rede, though apposite, is not the Law I am talking about.
The Law I am concerned with is a series of commands concerning when, how & where we 'perform the Rites' how we conduct ourselves & support each other: examples of conflicts that have been resolved & how these conflicts are to be resolved & who by.
Who wrote it & where it came from are not really the point, because if applied , it works: and quite a lot of people are practcing magic that way, aren't they, when you come down to it.

I am not insisting that all witches & pagans must obey these laws: I am saying that they work & it was a serious mistake to view them as obsolete before actually trying them out.

Oh, on the Valiente point, I am too old to be a priestess. I gave up gracefully. Not to put too fine a point on it, I had been a Maiden ( briefly! ) and then a Mother: so I could play all three roles. But now the hair is grey & some of the bits don't work any more, so I would be deceiving myself if I thought I could play a siren now ! I shall settle into cronehood & make life more interesting for the next generation. I am allowed to be quite mischevious now.

I'm afraid I'm still confused -- the Laws you are talking about are the ones Gerald Gardner introduced to his coven in the 1950s which played a role in the split with Doreen Valiente and the other "old ones" in the coven, correct?

It's confusing then why you would say what you did about these Laws, which were only ever applicable to Gardnerian covens (and covens who chose to adopt them too, such as Alexandrian covens) rather than all Wiccans, Witches or Pagans. How can people who never had anything to do with these Laws abandon them or view them as obsolete when they are not part of their tradition?

It's like complaining that Buddhists have abandoned the Christian ten commandments.