Revelation: the book

[earl]

I took notice of bannabrain's good historical response to the thread re "temple location found" in the "regular " Christianity thread which sort of related to traditional interpretations of the Book of Revelation. BB's apt response reminds us off the dangers of literalist interpretations of scripture. So thought I'd offer up my non-literalist interpretation of Revelation. I'm no biblical historian or scholar but read somewhere that the factions that wanted to make Jesus the Jewish messiah had in mind the hope that his arrival would change things from the outside-in. That is he would lead in someway a political/military revolution which would forge a new socio-political reality for oppressed people. Instead of the outside-in answer-the military one, Jesus offered an inside-out one: as you win the battle waging within you you can become that change you seek to sort of quote Ghandi.

So to Revelation. I see that book as chock full of metaphor and allegory-not a literalist prediction of specific external events to come. I won't go into a symbol by symbol discussion right now-would take more typing and time than I want to give now. Perhaps we can collectively use this thread for just such a discussion. But here are a few. First the return of the Christ. While I don't discount the possibility of a physical return of that manifestation, I believe the book is discussing the coming of the Christ individually for each of us-that is Christ seeks to be born in each of us in every moment of our lives and in our death. But ala Jungian thought which speaks of the "brighter the light, the darker the shadow," the more we seek to embrace the light of the Son the more we are called to deal with our internal demons-our shadow self.That must be purged/transformed before fuller realization & that old "Anti-Christ" doesn't give up without a battle. The seven seal spoken of to me represent the traditional 7 chakra system in Hinduism whereby as spiritual realization advances, each of the 7 chakras are engaged and in the process of opening to allow the flow of Divine grace to come through, the individual often faces the personal demons" associated with each chakra that require the purging I spoke of. There are more symbols in this book probably worthy of more speculation so if there's interest we can hopefully continue that dialogue here. But at any rate, the less we project our own battles onto others and the broader world stage and wage them within ourselves, the more likely I think we are to facilitate the "second coming" and maybe make the world a better place. The collective dangers we face seem to all be man-made whether you're talking about the scarey notion that the Middle East could flare into world war III or hosts of natural disasters triggered by global warming-it ain't God's or a supernatural Anti-Christ's doing. It's ours and ours to fix. Of course, can't rule out the possibility that John wrote that book under the influence of some hallucinogenic substance I suppose as it kind of reads like an acid trip.
Take care, earl

[wil]

Interesting challenge, should we take and digest and dissect it a book or a few lines at a time like the old Parsha Project?

[Thomas]

Hi Earl –

A couple of historical pointers ... more than half of Revelation is lifted from the Book of Daniel, the Nostradamus-like prophetic readings of the text are more often to do with the reader being unaware of the historical reference and timeframe rather than the author's intention of informing a future audience.

The Book was also written for a people about to suffer persecution (as Daniel wrote for his people in exile), so the primary focus was to offer support and encouragement during the approaching tribulation, hence the strong apocalyptic and eschatalogical theme.

The symbology then breaks down into universal and specific – 'seven', for example, being a universal, so it's not surprising that seals, chakras, levels of the Astral Light, steps on the Ray of Creation, etc, should be counted in sevens (the rainbow is a well-attested 'fudge' in that regard).

Thomas

[InLove]

Wow--no idea what you just said, Thomas. (Okay, a little idea.) Anyway, it just sounds like a project worth pursuing. Got my antennae working!

InPeace,
InLove

[Prober]

hmm...(feels woozy, grabs for the nearest Bible to steady himself...still listening)

[InLove]

Something about rainbow fudge, I think, Prober....

InPeace,
InLove

[Prober]

Originally Posted by InLove

Something about rainbow fudge, I think, Prober....

InPeace,
InLove

Mmmmm...rainbow fudge....

[earl]

Thomas, I always appreciate your scholarly knowledge. My last semi-facetious comment re whether the Book of Revelation was inspired by psychedelics got me curious to do a web search & found this a bit of interesting stuff on possible use of psychedelics by some early Christians

Did Early Christians Use Magic Mushrooms, Psychedelic Snails?

groovy dude earl

[flowperson]

Deadheads always made the grilled cheese sandwiches that they sold in concert parking lots with RAINBOW COLORED BREAD man ! Just thought you'd all like to know that.

flow....

[Zagreus]

Originally Posted by flowperson

Deadheads always made the grilled cheese sandwiches that they sold in concert parking lots with RAINBOW COLORED BREAD man ! Just thought you'd all like to know that.

flow....

No chance any of it was a bit moldy, perhaps?

Or did you hafta pay extra for that kind ...

~zag

[China Cat Sunflower]

Revelation seems to be where almost all of the "Heaven" imagery comes from. As Thomas says, it is a book written in an apocolyptic genre similar to Daniel. I think that Revelation was written by a gnostic. I think that it puts forth a gnostic cosmology. But I think that the events in Revelation relate solely to things happening at the time it was written. It is an apocolyptical tirade, with gnostic, sort of proto-kabbalistic political overtones.

There's a story about Martin Luther that I find really interesting. It seems that he wasn't going to include Revelation in his Bible, but when he saw the wood cut illustrations of the beasts with papal crowns he couldn't resist the propaganda value.

Chris

[wil]

Originally Posted by Zagreus

No chance any of it was a bit moldy, perhaps?

Or did you hafta pay extra for that kind ...

~zag

Put this one on the ice box. I don't believe he's ever had this short of a post or this few smiley's....and I can't imagine the incredible willpower given the the thread topic

[Prober]

Originally Posted by China Cat Sunflower

Revelation seems to be where almost all of the "Heaven" imagery comes from. As Thomas says, it is a book written in an apocolyptic genre similar to Daniel. I think that Revelation was written by a gnostic. I think that it puts forth a gnostic cosmology. But I think that the events in Revelation relate solely to things happening at the time it was written. It is an apocolyptical tirade, with gnostic, sort of proto-kabbalistic political overtones.

There's a story about Martin Luther that I find really interesting. It seems that he wasn't going to include Revelation in his Bible, but when he saw the wood cut illustrations of the beasts with papal crowns he couldn't resist the propaganda value.

Chris

Is it true that Martin Luther died in the WC?

Another viewpoint, of course, would be that the writer was well aware of earlier writings and tied his book to them. It seems that many NT characters, including Jesus, did this.

[InLove]

Congratz, Zag, on the new posting style!

I don't know what y'all think about the "Decoding the Past" series on the History Channel (or even how many of you have access), but yesterday, in anticipation of this study idea, I started re-reading Revelation. Just about the time I opened it up, a program came on about it on the History Channel. Synchronicity? Sign? Coincidence?

Anyway, it was interesting (both the reading and the program). I am trying to read the book prayerfully (as always), but this time I am semi-ignoring the set of study notes to which I have usually referred. I am attempting to read it from a totally objective context, but it is difficult, if not impossible! Maybe the best I can do is employ different angles. I find that the more information I receive about the ancient Hebrew customs of preservation, the more I am intrigued by the symbolism and historical implications in this book.

By the way, what is the name of this book? Revelations? The Revelation? The Revelation of St. John? The Book of Revelations? There are so many different ways I have seen the title written. I know, context...right? Just thought I'd ask, anyway. Seems relevant. Or "Revelant"? Maybe "revenant"?

Thanks earl, for this thread and the thought behind it. Looking for some refreshing perspective. The idea of a somewhat shamanistic approach to seemingly mystic literature seems totally appropriate to me.

Maybe Thomas will punctuate our non-literalistic endeavor with some historical study notes that may apply, as well, and of course, I think he did volunteer to bring the refreshments....

InPeace,
InLove

[earl]

As to shamanism-nearly all shamanistic approaches everywhere in the world featured use of psychoactive substances if they were available locally. I actually tried to do web searching to see what if any shmanistic traditions existed in Palestine at that time & could find nothing. But to me the book of Revelation does resemble the expereince of a "shamanistic journey" facilitated by psychoactive subtances. earl